World Cup: Four Nations Tournament-Team Canada

NordiquesForeva

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To be fair, Team Canada rarely brings sophomores to the Olympics. Doughty was a special case given his instant impact as an elite defensemen. They usually give non lock spots to veterans and guys who've been around a while.

Oh I'm aware, I was just pointing out that Yzerman omitted a sophomore player from the 2010 team that was having a far better season in 2009-2010 than Bedard is having this season. The easiest/least controversial thing for Yzerman to have done is select his player from TB and drop him in as the 13F and be done with it.

We'll never know this, but its possible that Bedard was pretty far away from being selected for this team.

Agreed on Doughty, he was phenomenal.

Edit: And for the record, while perhaps not the more politically-feasible thing to do, I would have taken Celebrini over Bedard if we were truly looking for a young player to give some reps to, to start building around in the future.
 

Zybalto

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Marner racks up assists early in the series. And that’s great. But as the series wears on his production dries up. And his goal scoring in the postseason is pitiful.

Here’s his postseason production by game.

Game 1: 4G 5A in 9 games
Game 2: 4G 7A in 9 games
Game 3: 0G 9A in 9 games
Game 4: 1G 9A in 8 games
Game 5: 0G 5A in 8 games
Game 6: 1G 1A in 7 games
Game 7: 0G 2A in 5 games

Absolutely brutal. And that doesn’t even get into the fact that he chokes defensively, takes and dumb penalties in the absolute worst moments. He’s awful under pressure.

Past game 2 in his playoff career he has 2 goals in 37 games. That’s disgraceful.
Going after Marner (a premier playmaker the league) for goal scoring is fine I guess but scoring goals also rippled through the lineup outside of a guy like Nylander (who is actually the guy who had defensive chokes)...and sure, he took a couple bad penalties 4-5 years ago. The amount scrutiny placed on Marner is insane compared to guys making similar money who have been worse in the playoffs.

5v5 the last 3 playoffs, goal differential for all lines without Marner and Rielly on them?

28.07%

Yea, those 2 guys are the problem on the Leafs. Two of 5v5 goal differential MVPs of the league in the playoffs.....but no, its their fault right? Never mind the fact their starting goalie was pulled the last 2 series or that half the top 6 got injured last year piling even more responsiblity on them. Hell, you can legit play a game of "flip the goalies" and the Leafs probably win every single series they have played in. (Ive been harping on this for years)

Maybe he will get chased out of Toronto to win a couple cups and we'll get another hot dog moment with him.
 

LeafLoyalist

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Seth Jarvis is surprisingly the best decision that Hockey Canada made IMO. Having BOTH Cirelli and Bennett might be a mistake. I think they could use some juice in the bottom 6. Just because you don’t forecheck, as often or viciously SHOULD NOT disqualify you as being fit for a defensive role. Plenty of great defensive players that can also create offensively
Cirelli was literally the shutdown C for Tampa for the last 6 years...3 cup finals, and back to back cups....how can anyone think he wouldn't help Canada. He literally played against the best NHL players for 16 straight playoff rounds.
 

ChazzMichaelMichaels

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I really like the team they picked.

Everyone is so skilled these days and can make plays, it's becoming more and more important at the highest level of who can disrupt the other team's play and take away time and space from them.

You have more than enough guys that can contribute on the PP and there is only so much ice-time to go around for offensive centric players, they needed guys that can get in on the forecheck and make it so the other 3 teams in the tournament can't play how they want to.

I'm also happy they went with a blueline with length and the ability to excel defensively. With Makar and Morrissey (not to mention the other guys also can run the PP and move pucks if needed) there was just no need to bring along more offensive leaning guys and again, there wouldn't be the ice time available to use them. Every single shift is against franchise/All star caliber players and every guy needs to be able to match up vs them and smother everything shift in and shift out.
 

Zybalto

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Cirelli was literally the shutdown C for Tampa for the last 6 years...3 cup finals, and back to back cups....how can anyone think he wouldn't help Canada. He literally played against the best NHL players for 16 straight playoff rounds.

He's having an incredible year this season too.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Going after Marner (a premier playmaker the league) for goal scoring is fine I guess but scoring goals also rippled through the lineup outside of a guy like Nylander (who is actually the guy who had defensive chokes)...and sure, he took a couple bad penalties 4-5 years ago. The amount scrutiny placed on Marner is insane compared to guys making similar money who have been worse in the playoffs.

5v5 the last 3 playoffs, goal differential for all lines without Marner and Rielly on them?

28.07%

Yea, those 2 guys are the problem on the Leafs. Two of 5v5 goal differential MVPs of the league in the playoffs.....but no, its their fault right? Never mind the fact their starting goalie was pulled the last 2 series or that half the top 6 got injured last year piling even more responsiblity on them. Hell, you can legit play a game of "flip the goalies" and the Leafs probably win every single series they have played in. (Ive been harping on this for years)

Maybe he will get chased out of Toronto to win a couple cups and we'll get another hot dog moment with him.
He doesn’t produce in big games. I’m not “going after him” it’s just a fact. He’s constantly screwing up in big situations too, it’s not just that he doesn’t produce.

Even if we look at assists only he’s got 8 in 20 games when we look at Game 4 and onwards. He’s a terrible big game player. Always has been.

Once again- the usual caveat here - just because he’s sucked in the past doesn’t mean he always will. Some guys take longer than others to produce. Datsyuk for example wasn’t great in the playoffs until he suddenly was. Maybe Marner can figure it out. I have no issue with anyone who supports him being on the team.

But let’s be honest about his playoff history. It’s not good.
 
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JackSlater

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I don't see Thomas and Bennett as an either/or proposition. Could easily select either, and it is very unlikely they were in line for the same spot. Cirelli likely got the spot Thomas could have gotten, and he is having a very strong year and brings a different flavour to a fourth line centre role.

If the projected team is the real team I sort of see it as the poor man's version of the 1987 Canada Cup team, or I suppose similar to the 1991 Canada Cup team. McDavid and MacKinnon as the poor man's Gretzky and Lemieux , and a lot of gritty and defensively capable guys in the support slots rather than top scorers like a Savard/Scheifele or a Francis/Thomas. Makar as Bourque (maybe Morrissey as the poor man's Coffey), goalie as the weakest spot on the team and so on. No Yzerman/Bedard. It's not a perfect parallel but this team reminds me in terms of construction of the 1987 Canada Cup team, and to a lesser degree 1991/1984.
 
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ChazzMichaelMichaels

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He doesn’t produce in big games. I’m not “going after him” it’s just a fact. He’s constantly screwing up in big situations too, it’s not just that he doesn’t produce.

Even if we look at assists only he’s got 8 in 20 games when we look at Game 4 and onwards. He’s a terrible big game player. Always has been.

Once again- the usual caveat here - just because he’s sucked in the past doesn’t mean he always will. Some guys take longer than others to produce. Datsyuk for example wasn’t great in the playoffs until he suddenly was. Maybe Marner can figure it out. I have no issue with anyone who supports him being in the team.

But let’s be honest about his playoff history. It’s not good.

I know there isn't much I can say that you won't likely just reference his playoff record but I think Marner is an incredibly useful player for the team.

I think he'll likely be one of their main PK'ers up front, he's unbelievable on the PK and is so hard for opposing team's best players when they're a man up. He also can be a very ideal defensive conscious to one of the top lines while also being able to play with them offensively and not limit what they're doing. He can create a lot of chaos with switches, movement and deception that I think will work well some of the top of the lineup guys.
 

Zybalto

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He doesn’t produce in big games. I’m not “going after him” it’s just a fact. He’s constantly screwing up in big situations too, it’s not just that he doesn’t produce.

Even if we look at assists only he’s got 8 in 20 games when we look at Game 4 and onwards. He’s a terrible big game player. Always has been.

Once again- the usual caveat here - just because he’s sucked in the past doesn’t mean he always will. Some guys take longer than others to produce. Datsyuk for example wasn’t great in the playoffs until he suddenly was. Maybe Marner can figure it out. I have no issue with anyone who supports him being in the team.

But let’s be honest about his playoff history. It’s not good.

I am being honest though. Like other players, Marner has had ups and downs but has been overall a positive on his team in the playoffs. I dont think the Russian team would be leaving a guy like Panarin off right? .....and no sane person thinks they should.....and Marner has been light years better than Panarin has been in the playoffs. Mark Stone is another guy who played better than his rep and then all of a sudden won a cup. He had 0 points against the Habs and Price just before that though and was considered maybe the worst playoff guy out of the big money guys.

Maybe part of it is a lack of recognition of defensive play?

I don't miss the stupid threads about McDavid who was obviously the best player in the world despite not making the playoffs or getting swept in the first round. Its a team sport and Marner doesnt even make the first page of why his team has had problems IMO.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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I am being honest though. Like other players, Marner has had ups and downs but has been overall a positive on his team in the playoffs.
I’m sorry but no. What ‘ups’ has he had?

And he really has not been a net positive for them. He’s constantly on the ice when key goals are scored against. Last year his own teammates were berating him on the bench. He’s been flat out bad.
dont think the Russian team would be leaving a guy like Panarin off right? .....and no sane person thinks they should.....and Marner has been light years better than Panarin has been in the playoffs. Mark Stone is another guy who played better than his rep and then all of a sudden won a cup. He had 0 points against the Habs and Price just before that though and was considered maybe the worst playoff guy out of the big money guys.
Would you leave a super talented guy off?

I guess it depends on who you’re leaving him off for.
Maybe part of it is a lack of recognition of defensive play?
He isn’t good defensive either. This is ancedotal. But I remember countless times of him making huge errors. In the Montreal series alone he gets a jock over glass penalty that leads to a loss. He’s caught going the wrong way on a rush that leads to another loss. Same thing in the most recent series in Boston.

He’s normally a solid player but he chokes.

I don't miss the stupid threads about McDavid who was obviously the best player in the world despite not making the playoffs or getting swept in the first round. It’s a team sport and Marner doesnt even make the first page of why his team has had problems IMO.
McDavid produces in a losing cause. He puts up Gretz/Lemieux type playoff numbers. They are night and day different.
 
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NordiquesForeva

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I don't see Thomas and Bennett as an either/or proposition. Could easily select either, and it is very unlikely they were in line for the same spot. Cirelli likely got the spot Thomas could have gotten, and he is having a very strong year and brings a different flavour to a fourth line centre role.

If the projected team is the real team I sort of see it as the poor man's version of the 1987 Canada Cup team, or I suppose similar to the 1991 Canada Cup team. McDavid and MacKinnon as the poor man's Gretzky and Lemieux , and a lot of gritty and defensively capable guys in the support slots rather than top scorers like a Savard/Scheifele or a Francis/Thomas. Makar as Bourque (maybe Morrissey as the poor man's Coffey), goalie as the weakest spot on the team and so on. No Yzerman/Bedard. It's not a perfect parallel but this team reminds me in terms of construction of the 1987 Canada Cup team, and to a lesser degree 1991/1984.

I was thinking that as well, particularly the point on the 1991 team. While hockey has changed a lot since then and our muckers and grinders for lack of a better term (say, Cirelli, Bennett, Hagel, Konecny) are much more skilled and better overall players than our muckers and grinders in 1991 (Graham, Tocchet, Sutter, Corson), I think we'll see a clearly-defined top-6 and bottom-6 at the 4 Nations tourney that we haven't really seen at recent bests-on-bests in the Yzerman/Babcock era. Babcock tended to deploy a top-9 with one heavy forechecking line (the Getzlaf lines in both tournaments) and the 4th line was more or less the spare parts and saw limited playing time.

I think we'll see a bit of a shift away from the Babcock approach and more toward what we saw 30+ years ago with the separation between those who's job it is to score, and those who's job it is to do other things. Tactically it makes sense for Canada to batten down the hatches defensively, given the state of our goaltending. A high-paced puck pressure/disruptive forechecking approach can be quite entertaining to watch when done properly, which I have no doubt Canada will given its coaching and player selection.

If this is in fact the approach then the players selected make a lot of sense, all the way down to Jarvis. The player selection kind of confirms what the approach will be, in fact.

I do hope Cooper is flexible enough to shift around players in his lineup depending on performance and fit.

We can quibble about guys like Thomas, Bedard, etc. but given the track records of the individuals involved in selecting the team I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they've thought things through.
 

JackSlater

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I was thinking that as well, particularly the point on the 1991 team. While hockey has changed a lot since then and our muckers and grinders for lack of a better term (say, Cirelli, Bennett, Hagel, Konecny) are much more skilled and better overall players than our muckers and grinders in 1991 (Graham, Tocchet, Sutter, Corson), I think we'll see a clearly-defined top-6 and bottom-6 at the 4 Nations tourney that we haven't really seen at recent bests-on-bests in the Yzerman/Babcock era. Babcock tended to deploy a top-9 with one heavy forechecking line (the Getzlaf lines in both tournaments) and the 4th line was more or less the spare parts and saw limited playing time.

I think we'll see a bit of a shift away from the Babcock approach and more toward what we saw 30+ years ago with the separation between those who's job it is to score, and those who's job it is to do other things. Tactically it makes sense for Canada to batten down the hatches defensively, given the state of our goaltending. A high-paced puck pressure/disruptive forechecking approach can be quite entertaining to watch when done properly, which I have no doubt Canada will given its coaching and player selection.

If this is in fact the approach then the players selected make a lot of sense, all the way down to Jarvis. The player selection kind of confirms what the approach will be, in fact.

I do hope Cooper is flexible enough to shift around players in his lineup depending on performance and fit.

We can quibble about guys like Thomas, Bedard, etc. but given the track records of the individuals involved in selecting the team I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they've thought things through.
In ideal situations where there is a lot of depth you do things the way Yzerman and Babcock did, but Canada's isn't as strong right now. Canada at the 1976 Canada Cup, probably the strongest and deepenst Canadian team ever, also did things the same way. There is a logic to the picks in terms of compensating for the team's clear area of weakness.
 

Nucks2001

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Cirelli was literally the shutdown C for Tampa for the last 6 years...3 cup finals, and back to back cups....how can anyone think he wouldn't help Canada. He literally played against the best NHL players for 16 straight playoff rounds.
I said having BOTH. Of the 2, I like Cirelli more for the reasons you stated. Brayden Point was the match-up center for the majority of the Tampa years though, Cirelli has taken that role from him in more recent years and their last Stanley Cup Final.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Robert Thomas is a better playmaker, skater, passer, face-off taker, actually kills penalties very well (something that Bennett does not), younger and is just flat-out more skilled.
I don't agree that Thomas is a better skater, Bennett can flat out fly. And being younger isn't really a relevant factor. Bennett is a better goal scorer, forechecker, and net front presence.

Over the last 3 seasons:

5v5 scoringG/60P1/60P/60
Thomas0.621.532.10
Bennett0.871.531.94

For being "flat out more skilled" than Bennett, it certainly hasn't shown at 5v5.

Yes, Bennett is perhaps a better forechecker and more of a “power forward,” but to say he’s not a better player than Bennett, let alone a fit for Team Canada is absurd. Thomas has also played the RW before as well.
And this is why Bennett makes more sense for the role that he's being asked to play.

There is an argument that Thomas is a better fit to be a 1C than Bennett, as he's a better PP player. But for a team like this I take Bennett all day. He brings so much more to the game.
Thomas has also played the RW before as well.
So has Bennett. Bennett has also killed penalties in the past.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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To be fair to him, he was really good in the two Boston series in 18 and 19. Toronto’s best player in those series. Cassidy was comparing him to Gretzky at the start of the 19 series
He did next to nothing in 2019. Had a first game with two goals and then disappeared for the rest of the series.

In 2018 the Leafs lost in five. He has four assists and one goal. Let’s count that as a good series but the Leafs were out in five games.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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I’ve seen enough of Marner to know that he hasn’t risen to the occasion in the past. No he would not be on my team.

That being said, he has the talent to produce. Every year I wonder if this is finally the year. He’s never done it but that doesn’t mean that he can’t.

To me he falls into that Joe Thornton type player. Super talented but doesn’t show up when it matters. Maybe this is the year…
He did well in 2018, and has produced at 2.02 p/60 at 5v5 over the last 5 years, with excellent raw and relative possession numbers (53.4% CF%, +5.3 rel CF%). That's pretty decent considering the stingy teams they've played.

These are really strong playoff possession numbers:

1733332294547.png

1733332342183.png

I’d take Bedard and throw him with McDavid. As I said, I think they’d kill it and I think Nedard would be better for it going forward. Canada will be counting on him heavily in the future. It’s worth bringing him out for this.

If they don’t… okay cool. But he’d be on my team.
I don't think that's a great match, just because McDavid likes to set guys up around the net (Hyman), whereas Bedard likes to stay more on the perimeter. Bedard is also really weak in terms of offensive retrievals and possession, which means less puck time for 97.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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He did well in 2018, and has produced at 2.02 p/60 at 5v5 over the last 5 years, with excellent raw and relative possession numbers (53.4% CF%, +5.3 rel CF%). That's pretty decent considering the stingy teams they've played.

These are really strong playoff possession numbers:

View attachment 939942
View attachment 939943
You can put whatever lipstick on the pig you wish. It's still a pig.

He's terrible in the playoffs and his production is awful, especially past game three. That doesn't even get into the defensive lapses he makes, the whining on the bench or the fact that he can't score goals.
I don't think that's a great match, just because McDavid likes to set guys up around the net (Hyman), whereas Bedard likes to stay more on the perimeter. Bedard is also really weak in terms of offensive retrievals and possession, which means less puck time for 97.
Cool.

I'd do it. I think Bedard's shot and offensive instincts would match really well with McDavid. It appears to be a moot point though because I don't think they're taking Bedard.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Marner on the team should hardly be a shock. A natural winger, competent defensively, and can slot in on second or third line.
I'd say it's a given that he'd be on the team.

I wouldn't take him but that's an unpopular opinion. If he is selected I will expect the worst and hope for the best. There's no denying his talent. Who knows? Maybe he has a great tournament. I hope he does.
 

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