Former Ducks (2024-25 edition)

[mightyquack]

I love Ryan Getzlaf, but this seems like an insane take to me. Thornton not only outproduced Getzlaf significantly on a season by season basis, but he also did it for longer. And while Getzlaf's playoff production partially makes up for it, it doesn't quite get him all the way there. Thornton was just better.

From 2006 (when Getzlaf was a full time NHL player) to 2022 (when both players retired), Getzlaf had 980 points in 1,100 games (0.89 ppg) while Thornton had 993 in 1,124 games (0.88 ppg).

Obviously that cuts out some of Thornton's better years (02/03, 05/06)...but they were pretty much dead even when they were in the NHL at the same time.

Thornton has a lot more total points obviously, but he had seven more NHL seasons and Getzlaf hit the cliff early unfortunately. But they were pretty close when they were both playing in the NHL at the same time (and on a PPG basis), along with Getzlaf being significantly better in the playoffs.

I'd take Getzlaf 10 times out of 10 over Thornton as a player, but Thornton will get into the HOF first unfortunately.

 

[JAHV]

From 2006 (when Getzlaf was a full time NHL player) to 2022 (when both players retired), Getzlaf had 980 points in 1,100 games (0.89 ppg) while Thornton had 993 in 1,124 games (0.88 ppg).

Obviously that cuts out some of Thornton's better years (02/03, 05/06)...but they were pretty much dead even when they were in the NHL at the same time.

Thornton has a lot more total points obviously, but he had seven more NHL seasons and Getzlaf hit the cliff early unfortunately. But they were pretty close when they were both playing in the NHL at the same time (and on a PPG basis), along with Getzlaf being significantly better in the playoffs.

I'd take Getzlaf 10 times out of 10 over Thornton as a player, but Thornton will get into the HOF first unfortunately.

This is still crazy. If I could rephrase your argument, it's something like: "When I remove one player's MVP season plus a bunch of his other very productive seasons and ignore the fact that he played longer, they're basically the same guy, so give me the other one all day long."

Also, yes, Getzlaf was better in the playoffs, but Thornton wasn't a slouch. He still put up 134 points in 187 games, and that rate is hurt significantly by his age 39-42 seasons when Getzlaf wasn't even playing.

I love Getzlaf. He's my second favorite player of all time behind only Teemu. He was fantastic for the Ducks and I can't wait to see his number retired and I'm hopeful we'll see him inducted into the Hall. Conversely, I hated Thornton when he played. But there's no way to look at their careers and conclude Getzlaf's was better without severe Ducks bias.

 

[mightyquack]

This is still crazy. If I could rephrase your argument, it's something like: "When I remove one player's MVP season plus a bunch of his other very productive seasons and ignore the fact that he played longer, they're basically the same guy, so give me the other one all day long."

Also, yes, Getzlaf was better in the playoffs, but Thornton wasn't a slouch. He still put up 134 points in 187 games, and that rate is hurt significantly by his age 39-42 seasons when Getzlaf wasn't even playing.

I love Getzlaf. He's my second favorite player of all time behind only Teemu. He was fantastic for the Ducks and I can't wait to see his number retired and I'm hopeful we'll see him inducted into the Hall. Conversely, I hated Thornton when he played. But there's no way to look at their careers and conclude Getzlaf's was better without severe Ducks bias.

I literally said that is taking a couple of his best seasons out because Getzlaf wasn't in the NHL at the time . You can throw a comparison from Thornton's start of his career to when Getzlaf and Thornton finished their career, and their PPG is 0.90 v 0.88 in Thornton's favour. It is literally nothing between them. Obiovusly Thornton has more points as he played for seven more seasons....

Thornton's playoff rate is certainly not hurt significantly by his age 39-42 seasons, even if you want to take out his last 3 playoff campaigns. He goes from 0.72ppg in the playoffs to 0.76ppg. Still miles under Getzlaf's 0.96ppg. Heck, you take out Thornton's last 3 playoff campaigns, Getzlaf would have 3 points less with 35 less games played in the playoffs. Thornton was terrible in the playoffs (including a huge choke in the 2016 SCF) no matter how you shape it, and one of the worst playoff performers when it comes to elite players in the modern NHL.

I never said Getzlaf had a better career, though I bet Thornton would rather have a Cup then a Hart Trophy, I said I'd take Getzlaf as a player over Thornton 10 times out of 10. Thornton is a luxury player who welted as the main player when it mattered, while Getzlaf elevated his play, that's why Getzlaf was the better player.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

I take both Kopitar and Getzlaf over Thornton.
Winning the cup is the #1 goal ultimately. Its the end game. Thornton got the captaincy taken away from him because he was not a leader when it mattered. They are up 3 games to none over the Kings and they lose the series 3-4 in 2014 and then they took away him being Captain. Todd McLellan shares some of the blame as well though.

Then before that there was the Presidents Trophy Sharks in 2009 that couldn't even get out of the first round to the 8th seed Ducks. Seems like everywhere Todd McLellan goes his teams choke as it happened to him in Edmonton and LA.

 

[JAHV]

I literally said that is taking a couple of his best seasons out because Getzlaf wasn't in the NHL at the time . You can throw a comparison from Thornton's start of his career to when Getzlaf and Thornton finished their career, and their PPG is 0.90 v 0.88 in Thornton's favour. It is literally nothing between them. Obiovusly Thornton has more points as he played for seven more seasons

Right, those seven more seasons are incredibly valuable and prove that Thornton was the better player. That's like removing the best five seasons from Getzlaf's career and then saying that he's basically Steve Rucchin but Rucchin scored that OT playoff goal that one time so I'm taking Rucchin 10 out of 10 times. It's nonsense.

You can like Getzlaf better. I certainly do. We're all Duck fans. It's cool. But there is no legitimate argument that Getzlaf was a better player or is more deserving of the Hall of Fame. In order to make that argument you have to change history by removing seven seasons from a guy's career and pretend that winning a Stanley Cup is solely due to the one guy on the roster you happen to be making a case for.

 

[Terry Yake]

thornton was the better player and had the better career. don't think there's any question about that

getzlaf was the better playoff performer though

 

[Rybread86]

Heres the rub, this is the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame. You have to look beyond just their years in the NHL. International play, juniors, etc.

One of the best arguments for Getzlaf is has virtually won everything there is to win outside of individual rewards. And Crosby might be the only reason Getzlaf doesnt have a Hart.

If Getzlaf isnt a 1st ballot guy, then I kinda of hope they do what they did with Selanne and PK. Wait until Perry is eligible and induct them in the same class.

 

[Mr Rogers]

Yeah agree that Thornton was just better than Getz, Getz just never reached that level offensively, too many scoreless nights. When he was at his best, he was just as good and more effective than Joe but he wasn't really at that level for long stretches, came out more in the playoffs than in the RS.

Osgood just isn't a HOFer imo. Only has notoriety because he was on elite teams, put him on an average team and he's just another Patrick Lalime.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Head to head I’d take Getzlaf over Thornton 10 times out of 10. On the same ice it’s clear who the better player was.

Thornton had a real shiny career though.

 

[JAHV]

Getzlaf was an elite player. He was a great distributor, he was tough, he was good internationally, he was good in the playoffs, he was good defensively. He's a borderline Hall of Famer simply because he wasn't quite productive enough to be a slam dunk, but he was fantastic for a long time and I think he deserves to go in.

There is no way to look at their careers and say Getzlaf was better. That's not a slight on Getzlaf. Thornton was one of the best centers to ever play the game. He had five seasons with more points than Getzlaf's best.

 

[Terry Yake]

Getzlaf was an elite player. He was a great distributor, he was tough, he was good internationally, he was good in the playoffs, he was good defensively. He's a borderline Hall of Famer simply because he wasn't quite productive enough to be a slam dunk, but he was fantastic for a long time and I think he deserves to go in.

There is no way to look at their careers and say Getzlaf was better. That's not a slight on Getzlaf. Thornton was one of the best centers to ever play the game. He had five seasons with more points than Getzlaf's best.

agree with your points, except that i don't think there's any debate that getzlaf will get into the HOF. won't be first ballot like thornton will likely be, but he's 100% getting in

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Thornton is the best Craig Janney there ever was!

 

[JAHV]

Thornton is the best Craig Janney there ever was!

Ooh, interesting. I think it's really close between him and Adam Oates. On the list of Craig Janneys, I'd go:

1. Adam Oates (just because of era)
2. Joe Thornton
3. Henrik Sedin
4. Ryan Getzlaf
5. Nicklas Backstrom
6. Craig Janney
7. Doug Weight

If you think Peter Forsberg qualifies as a Janney, you have to determine how to value his dominance vs lack of longevity.

 

[Terry Yake]

Ooh, interesting. I think it's really close between him and Adam Oates. On the list of Craig Janneys, I'd go:

1. Adam Oates (just because of era)
2. Joe Thornton
3. Henrik Sedin
4. Ryan Getzlaf
5. Nicklas Backstrom
6. Craig Janney
7. Doug Weight

If you think Peter Forsberg qualifies as a Janney, you have to determine how to value his dominance vs lack of longevity.

forsberg is easily the most talented out of any of the guys you listed. at their peaks, i'd say only lindros and jagr were better in the 90s

 

[Mr Rogers]

Doug Weight is interesting to me. Maybe because i was too young to see the few big years he had, but all in all it seems like he was a top-end 2C when it was all set and done with a couple bigger years mixed in. I guess RNH would be who comes to mind in modern-day.

 

[Doothpick]

Doug Weight is interesting to me. Maybe because i was too young to see the few big years he had, but all in all it seems like he was a top-end 2C when it was all set and done with a couple bigger years mixed in. I guess RNH would be who comes to mind in modern-day.

Don't you bring up that name in these boards.

I still think if Burke never made that trade for Weight, and AndyMac was here in '09 they beat Detroit in the playoffs. That HOF defence, RPG in their prime and Hiller in the net were for sure enough to contend any team in the league at that time.

They were just missing one offensive threat, and Mac with Teemu would have maybe been just enough to get over the hump. Instead they had Andrew Ebbett and Eric Cristiansen.. I have nightmares of those guys, even more inept players we have now in the top9.

Speaking of the Ducks history and those times makes me sad. I became fan in the the late '90s, but I was just a kid in Europe so I didn't really get to watch games, except I did get to see '03 playoffs and fell in love with Jiggy. I was heartbroken for him, and so happy for him to get the cup later. Then came along streaming, and I hopped on the regular watch in '06. Just in time for the glory years, afterwards for Getz' and Pears' prime.. so lucky, and so many great memories. Too many to count, and that includes this HFDucks board.

Now I think my fandom has died these past ~5 years. Maybe it's because I'm older and watching sports now generally do nothing for me. However I still get get excited for NHL playoffs, or watching some insane highlights etc, but honestly.. I really don't give a crap about this team anymore until they give me reasons to. Last great memory for me was Getz' final game and that insane pass to Rico. That was like 2, 3 years ago?

I got a bit excited for that hot start last year, but pretty much nothing since then. I watch games infrequently and don't even care for highlights that much. Feeling they could be the next Buffalo is scary, and they are halfway there already.

I still have hope, though. They just need better veterans than they have currently, coach who isn't in over his head, confidence and experience of winning to get going. Who knows if they get there, but I just miss being excited for watching Ducks hockey. I hope it happens sooner than later, but I'll try to suffer with the rest of you guys.. misery loves company, and this board is the only thing that makes this all tolerable. Cheers!

 

[Mr Rogers]

Don't you bring up that name in these boards.

I still think if Burke never made that trade for Weight, and AndyMac was here in '09 they beat Detroit in the playoffs. That HOF defence, RPG in their prime and Hiller in the net were for sure enough to contend any team in the league at that time.

They were just missing one offensive threat, and Mac with Teemu would have maybe been just enough to get over the hump. Instead they had Andrew Ebbett and Eric Cristiansen.. I have nightmares of those guys, even more inept players we have now in the top9.

Speaking of the Ducks history and those times makes me sad. I became fan in the the late '90s, but I was just a kid in Europe so I didn't really get to watch games, except I did get to see '03 playoffs and fell in love with Jiggy. I was heartbroken for him, and so happy for him to get the cup later. Then came along streaming, and I hopped on the regular watch in '06. Just in time for the glory years, afterwards for Getz' and Pears' prime.. so lucky, and so many great memories. Too many to count, and that includes this HFDucks board.

Now I think my fandom has died these past ~5 years. Maybe it's because I'm older and watching sports now generally do nothing for me. However I still get get excited for NHL playoffs, or watching some insane highlights etc, but honestly.. I really don't give a crap about this team anymore until they give me reasons to. Last great memory for me was Getz' final game and that insane pass to Rico. That was like 2, 3 years ago?

I got a bit excited for that hot start last year, but pretty much nothing since then. I watch games infrequently and don't even care for highlights that much. Feeling they could be the next Buffalo is scary, and they are halfway there already.

I still have hope, though. They just need better veterans than they have currently, coach who isn't in over his head, confidence and experience of winning to get going. Who knows if they get there, but I just miss being excited for watching Ducks hockey. I hope it happens sooner than later, but I'll try to suffer with the rest of you guys.. misery loves company, and this board is the only thing that makes this all tolerable. Cheers!

They were so close to beating Detroit in 2009 even without Andy Mac! They totally would’ve won with him. Detroit also won that series on a very controversial goal if you remember.

That was such a fun playoffs, Getz and Pronger in particular were incredible. Both series were a lot of fun - they just kicked SJ’s *** to put it bluntly haha and they gave Detroit everything they could handle. I remember how much it felt like Detroit had every single call go their way.

 

[Terry Yake]

i still wonder how a ducks-hawks WCF in 09 would've gone if they had gotten past detroit. f*** dan cleary forever. didn't know you could use your stick to push a goaltender's pad into the goal

 

[McDonald19]

From 2006 (when Getzlaf was a full time NHL player) to 2022 (when both players retired), Getzlaf had 980 points in 1,100 games (0.89 ppg) while Thornton had 993 in 1,124 games (0.88 ppg).

Obviously that cuts out some of Thornton's better years (02/03, 05/06)...but they were pretty much dead even when they were in the NHL at the same time.

Thornton has a lot more total points obviously, but he had seven more NHL seasons and Getzlaf hit the cliff early unfortunately. But they were pretty close when they were both playing in the NHL at the same time (and on a PPG basis), along with Getzlaf being significantly better in the playoffs.

I'd take Getzlaf 10 times out of 10 over Thornton as a player, but Thornton will get into the HOF first unfortunately.

Getzlaf was also consistently physical. Thornton only occasionally used his 6’4 220 frame, particularly in the second half of his career.

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

I love Ryan Getzlaf, but this seems like an insane take to me. Thornton not only outproduced Getzlaf significantly on a season by season basis, but he also did it for longer. And while Getzlaf's playoff production partially makes up for it, it doesn't quite get him all the way there. Thornton was just better.

Production isn't the only thing that matters.

Getzlaf entire game was playoff performance (not just production). Getzlaf was a much bigger and tougher force to play against when it mattered most. He dominated, he hit, he was impossible to take over the puck and really played a game that lends it self to winning. Thornton was a liability in the playoffs and Getzlaf while playing a tougher grittier style lead a team that won a Stanley cup in scoring. Joe could never. Joe will get in the HOF first because hes the more popular player but when the games on the line, I'll take Getzlaf every day.

 

[Terry Yake]

Production isn't the only thing that matters.

Getzlaf entire game was playoff performance (not just production). Getzlaf was a much bigger and tougher force to play against when it mattered most. He dominated, he hit, he was impossible to take over the puck and really played a game that lends it self to winning. Thornton was a liability in the playoffs and Getzlaf while playing a tougher grittier style lead a team that won a Stanley cup in scoring. Joe could never. Joe will get in the HOF first because hes the more popular player but when the games on the line, I'll take Getzlaf every day.

thornton's going to get in first ballot because he had a first ballot HOF career in terms of accolades and production

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

thornton's going to get in first ballot because he had a first ballot HOF career in terms of accolades and production

Longevity is the only reason for it. Lindros had to wait years and was the much better player. Getzlaf had similar numbers to Joe, performed when it mattered and will probably be waiting just as long as Lindros. Getzlaf and Lindros would have long careers if they played like soft Joe did, but they actually wanted to play the game the right way.

 

[Terry Yake]

Longevity is the only reason for it. Lindros had to wait years and was the much better player. Getzlaf had similar numbers to Joe, performed when it mattered and will probably be waiting just as long as Lindros. Getzlaf and Lindros would have long careers if they played like soft Joe did, but they actually wanted to play the game the right way.

longevity is part of it

but thornton had 3 100 pt seasons, won every team award aside from a cup, and has a hart and art ross to boot

 

[Mr Rogers]

Longevity is the only reason for it. Lindros had to wait years and was the much better player. Getzlaf had similar numbers to Joe, performed when it mattered and will probably be waiting just as long as Lindros. Getzlaf and Lindros would have long careers if they played like soft Joe did, but they actually wanted to play the game the right way.

Lindros definitely shouldn't have had to wait that long and i see that kind of an outlier in terms of how it worked out.

No argument that Getz was far better when it mattered. I sometimes see people go against the grain and say, well Joe wasn't as bad in the playoffs as people - the media and fans - made him out to be but i think the criticism is 110% warranted. Anyone who watched him knew how simply ineffective and fickle he looked in big games. Of course he's going to still put up and accumulate points, he's Joe Thornton for Christ's sake, but it was at a much lower rate than in the regular season.

On physicality, Getz was better there too, but Joe was a tough SOB too and it was Lindros interestingly who probably changed the way he played. I don't think Joe's subsequent ambivalence towards physicality was why he was underwhelming in the playoffs.

But when it was all set and done, the guy was just a better points accumulator than Getz. Now there are a couple reasons for this that come my mind, that go probably beyond him simply being more talented, which i still think he probably was by a little bit.

1. Joe was a very poor defensive player early in his career - Getz was unequivocally the far superior defensive player - he was very offensive focused and that probably helped to boost his points totals.
2. He played in more offensive systems with Ron Wilson and TMac that Getz did under Randy. I really don't think you could say any of the coaches Joe had in SJ were defensive-minded. Getz had Bruce for 4 years and his production spiked to near Thornton levels.

It's close, but i would not argue with anybody that says Joe is a 1st ballot while Getz will have to wait. It's just precedent honestly, even if i take Getz when building a team, knowing how their careers would go.

 

[JAHV]

A guy who scored 125 points in a season (and again, had four other seasons better than Getzlaf's best) was not a "points accumulator." He was one of the best centers in the game.