For those who watched Gretzky, when did he become the GOAT?

[solidmotion]

Messi set the all-time record for assist and goals in the same season. Messi's 2011-12 is the most dominant season in football history.

sure, but how often does that come up in football goat conversations? i hear a lot more about overall skill/impact, team success, clutch moments. (barca didn't win la liga or champions league that year, which everybody mentions.) records like that are secondary, evidence points in support of an overall impression. sort of like how a hockey fan would look at westbrook's 16-17 and think it's the best year ever when basketball fans know better.

 

[bobber]

That's offense.

Yes , but it's was defense's job to stop him. They failed miserably.

 

[bobber]

Messi set the all-time record for assist and goals in the same season. Messi's 2011-12 is the most dominant season in football history.

But did he play hockey?

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

or football (soccer), maradona may have had the highest peak but most people would say messi is the goat now, mostly due to longevity.

It was definitely common to hear people calling Messi the GOAT as early as 2012, when he was only 25. Pertinent to this thread, I think - people could see that they were witnessing something unprecedented as it was happening.

His insane levels of longevity have merely entrenched it and made it basically indisputable. But he was thought of by many as the GOAT on peak alone. It's a sport that cares quite a bit less about longevity unless that longevity is particularly noteworthy.

 

[solidmotion]

It was definitely common to hear people calling Messi the GOAT as early as 2012, when he was only 25. Pertinent to this thread, I think - people could see that they were witnessing something unprecedented as it was happening.

His insane levels of longevity have merely entrenched it and made it basically indisputable. But he was thought of by many as the GOAT on peak alone. It's a sport that cares quite a bit less about longevity unless that longevity is particularly noteworthy.

oh yes fair enough

 

[Johnny Engine]

Forecheck is defense. You don't have the puck and you're trying to get it back from the opponent. Retrievals are not defense. But these are good clarifying questions.

Of course.
To be clear, I don't agree with "being good with the puck is defense" at all, and think that "extending possessions often leads to better defensive results" is true but very easy to overstate when even 2008 Pavel Datsyuk is out there giving up 33% of the corsis.
I guess the way I'd put it is that hockey looks to me like a game of getting the puck and trying to do something with it, and that the former - which involves a lot of defense but isn't a 1:1 equivalent of defense - is never irrelevant.

 

[67 others]

Don't think I'd go that far. My other favourite sport is golf where I think the majority would still say Jack Nicklaus is the greatest ever, despite IMO it being pretty clear that Tiger Woods was better at his best.

But Tiger was at his best for about 10 years while Nicklaus was for about 15-20 so one guy has the all-time major record and the other guy doesn't. I personally think a 10 year stretch is enough to say he's the best ever, but many others disagree.

This is like the old Beatles vs rolling stones debate.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Anyway, I look at that horse on Norway (Haaland?).).

Haaland plays that way because His father in the 90s Prem(top british league/league in the world) made the mistake of trash talking a very angry irish man.

Said irish man ruined his career the next time they played and destroyed his acl/mcl.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Well if that's true(which I dont believe) it's due to the fact that Gretzky's numbers are such an outlier, also of course he is by far the most well known hockey player of all time which to me is a huge part of being the greatest.

There is simply no way you take 8 years of Orr over close to 20 of Gretzky, he basically got double the career, even if(and that's a big if in my mind) Orr was slightly better at their respective peaks the careers are not close, neither is the cultural impact.

If you are of the opinion that Orr was better and I wouldn't bother arguing that at all, even if I don't agree there is atleast a valid argument. In the end it's all semantics I suppose but best is not the same as greatest to me and id argue Gretzky was both but certainly greatest.

In american football for example. I can't speak for every sport since I really follow hockey/rugby/american football with cursory knowledge of a few others.

The all time leading rusher in american football is a guy named Emmit Smith. He also have 3 championships(which is alot for american football, there's really only been 3-4 legit dynasties since the 60s and they're usually more spread out than other sports).

Rushing is one of 3 major offensive stats, and I don't think anyone in their right mind, outside of crazy cowboys homers would take Emmit Smith over Barry Sanders(who never came close to winning anything), Eric Dickerson(who never won anything).

Or even a guy like Bo Jackson, who had an extremely short career(like 3-4 years), this doesn't stop him from being in the top 10 frequently.

 

[Albatros]

Alain Lemieux actually put up 34 points in 42 games with a pretty bad Blues club in 1982-83. Then when he went to Quebec in 1985, he had 22 points in 30 games (he was getting power-play time). He was a slightly stockier 'Gretzky-size', though, not a 'Mario-size', and maybe he didn't like the NHL grind or physicality or something. But the stats (and bloodline) do suggest he had the talent to play in the NHL if he'd been totally committed, etc.

Brent Gretzky did play in the NHL (incl. one game vs. Wayne), but briefly. He and Keith were small.

Maybe worth noting that Alain also never did any better in Europe, was mostly a healthy scratch in Switzerland and quickly rejected in Finland as well. To my understanding he had conditioning issues and wasn't really much of a team player.

Coincidentally the local rivals of his small-town team in Eastern Finland also had Keith Gretzky back then.

 

[Overrated]

It was definitely common to hear people calling Messi the GOAT as early as 2012, when he was only 25. Pertinent to this thread, I think - people could see that they were witnessing something unprecedented as it was happening.

His insane levels of longevity have merely entrenched it and made it basically indisputable. But he was thought of by many as the GOAT on peak alone. It's a sport that cares quite a bit less about longevity unless that longevity is particularly noteworthy.

People were calling him the GOAT in 2010 already although back then it was never with conviction and by the way he had a relatively slow start. It was virtually unheard of for people to call him a potential GOAT two years earlier.

 

[Overrated]

In Pee Wee Gretzky score 378 goals and 139 assists for 517 points in 84 games.

What were the second best guy's numbers?