OT: Football thread (2024 season)

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I think the Eagles would trade Hurts for Hebert as well. I did not see him on your list. I think Goff is very good but he needs an Oline.

that was just off the top of my head, i’d definitely have herbert over hurts even considering his two abysmal playoff chokes.

and yeah goff is like the final refuge of the true pocket QB. There’s basically no more true statues coming out, every QB is a dual threat. Even slower guys like Mahomes and Burrow can rip off big runs. Goff isnt doing that ever lol

although herbert has sort of evolved into a statue but he like actively decides not to run when he definitely could and should

 

[sbjnyc]

Goff was way better the last 2 seasons imo. Goff was better then other guys on your list as well imo.


I would have to think about that. Why is the Superbowl the key to the HOF? Lots of non HOF have gone to a Superbowl.

The 5 most recent QBs inducted into the HOF without winning a superbowl: Warren Moon, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Dan Fouts, Fran Tarkentan.

QBs have more impact on the game than perhaps any player in pro sports. There is also a bias towards winners in other sports but great players tend to be on winning teams. There are always exceptions of course.

 

[NickyFotiu]

The 5 most recent QBs inducted into the HOF without winning a superbowl: Warren Moon, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Dan Fouts, Fran Tarkentan.

QBs have more impact on the game than perhaps any player in pro sports. There is also a bias towards winners in other sports but great players tend to be on winning teams. There are always exceptions of course.

I understand your point but it is a weird bias to me. Guys like Joe Namath, and Ken Stabler are in the HOF and that is very questionable to me. Guys like Nick Foles, Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler have won Superbowls. Jim Plunkett won 2 superbowls. Winning a Superbowl should not be weighted so much imo.

 

[sbjnyc]

I understand your point but it is a weird bias to me. Guys like Joe Namath, and Ken Stabler are in the HOF and that is very questionable to me. Guys like Nick Foles, Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler have won Superbowls. Jim Plunkett won 2 superbowls. Winning a Superbowl should not be weighted so much imo.

Joe Namath was the 1st QB to throw for 4000 yards. It was a very different game back then. None of the guys playing today or even the past 20 years would have anywhere near the inflated stats they have now if the game was played under the same rules as then.

What QBs do you think should be in the HoF that aren't? Looking at a HoF monitor, the highest rated (eligible) QBs are Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Joe Theismann, Roman Gabriel, Rich Gannon, John Brodie.

Of these Anderson, Esiason, Gannon lost a SB, Theisman won and lost a superbowl.

You make it seem like the superbowl bias is keeping good QBs out of the HOF but it looks like slim pickings out there when it comes to HoF worthy guys.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Joe Namath was the 1st QB to throw for 4000 yards. It was a very different game back then. None of the guys playing today or even the past 20 years would have anywhere near the inflated stats they have now if the game was played under the same rules as then.

What QBs do you think should be in the HoF that aren't? Looking at a HoF monitor, the highest rated (eligible) QBs are Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Joe Theismann, Roman Gabriel, Rich Gannon, John Brodie.

Of these Anderson, Esiason, Gannon lost a SB, Theisman won and lost a superbowl.

You make it seem like the superbowl bias is keeping good QBs out of the HOF but it looks like slim pickings out there when it comes to HoF worthy guys.

Was the 4000 yards in the NFL? Joe Namath had a few good seasons. I do not know that that is good enough to be in the HOF. His case is largely made for the upset in the Superbowl but the Jets scored a whopping 16 points in that Superbowl. I do not believe he even threw a TD. I do not believe Joe nor Ken Stabler should be in the HOF. Phil Simms had a much better career than both of them imo. So did Ken Anderson.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Aaron Glenn introduced as Jets HC, has message for players: 'We're built for this (expletive)'
^That gives a good summary of the main things he said.

Darren Mougey & Aaron Glenn Introductory Press Conference
^There's the full press conference.

I'm amazed how people eat this shit up. Nick Sirianni had the most embarrassingly bad introductory press conference I've ever seen. He's not that great of a coach but I'd take him over Joe Judge and his great PC any day of the week.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Aaron Glenn introduced as Jets HC, has message for players: 'We're built for this (expletive)'
^That gives a good summary of the main things he said.

Darren Mougey & Aaron Glenn Introductory Press Conference
^There's the full press conference.

Thanks......I saw those quotes....I thought from your post that he might have said something more.

 

[sbjnyc]

Was the 4000 yards in the NFL? Joe Namath had a few good seasons. I do not know that that is good enough to be in the HOF. His case is largely made for the upset in the Superbowl but the Jets scored a whopping 16 points in that Superbowl. I do not believe he even threw a TD. I do not believe Joe nor Ken Stabler should be in the HOF. Phil Simms had a much better career than both of them imo. So did Ken Anderson.

You're looking at stats through the lens of 2025. The game was totally different. Johnny Unitas was considered the best QB in the league at the time and his average career stats aren't too much better than namaths although unitas had a longer career and namath's was injury shortened.

Unitas 17 game avg: 54.6%, 3242 yds 7.8 Yds/Att 23 TD 20 Int
Namath 17 game avg: 50.1% 3359 yds 7.4 yds/att 21 TD 27 Int

Namaths 4k yards was pre-merger in a 14 game season and no jet has done it even in a 17 game season.

There is also the historical aspect of it. If Namath went to an NFL team there may not have been a merger.

 

[NickyFotiu]

You're looking at stats through the lens of 2025. The game was totally different. Johnny Unitas was considered the best QB in the league at the time and his average career stats aren't too much better than namaths although unitas had a longer career and namath's was injury shortened.

Unitas 17 game avg: 54.6%, 3242 yds 7.8 Yds/Att 23 TD 20 Int
Namath 17 game avg: 50.1% 3359 yds 7.4 yds/att 21 TD 27 Int

Namaths 4k yards was pre-merger in a 14 game season and no jet has done it even in a 17 game season.

There is also the historical aspect of it. If Namath went to an NFL team there may not have been a merger.

I'm not really looking at stats. I was alive in the Namath and Stabler years. I actually rooted for Stabler and the Raiders. I know Joe was a big name big personality guy with a quick release but I do not feel he had a HOF career. He had some strong points and few strong seasons but not HOF. I do not feel like a guy should make the HOF if he would not make the HOF without the Superbowl. Would you say Joe was a HOF QB if he did not win the Superbowl?

 

[sbjnyc]

I'm not really looking at stats. I was alive in the Namath and Stabler years. I actually rooted for Stabler and the Raiders. I know Joe was a big name big personality guy with a quick release but I do not feel he had a HOF career. He had some strong points and few strong seasons but not HOF. I do not feel like a guy should make the HOF if he would not make the HOF without the Superbowl. Would you say Joe was a HOF QB if he did not win the Superbowl?

I'll put it this way. IMO you can't separate Namath from the merger and his SB 3's put an end to the remaining opposition.

Do you think Johnny Unitas should be a HoFer?

 

[Machinehead]

If you have the absolute audacity to even question if Eli Manning is a Hall of Famer, get out of my face, grow up, come back, and get out of my face again.

Brett Favre went into the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, with the committee taking six seconds to make a decision. Not one motherf***er batter one eyelid.

Here are their career stats:

Player	Cmp%	G	Rate	Y/A	Int%	Y/G	C/G	A/G​	4QC
Brett Favre	62.0	302	86	7.1	3.3	237.9	20.9	33.7	30
Eli Manning	59.7	201	83.7	7.1	3.2	239.9	20.3	34	30

Yeah.

Shut the f*** up.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I'll put it this way. IMO you can't separate Namath from the merger and his SB 3's put an end to the remaining opposition.

Do you think Johnny Unitas should be a HoFer?

I understand what you are saying but that reminds me of a line I just heard from a hof voter not voting for Eli on first ballot. He said he had hof moments but not a hof career. He said Eli should get in but not first ballot. If you take away the Superbowl hyperbole fron Joe do you see a HOF career?

I can't honestly answer your Johnny Unitas question. I heard he was the man when I was growing up but he was nearing the end when I started watching.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

If you have the absolute audacity to even question if Eli Manning is a Hall of Famer, get out of my face, grow up, come back, and get out of my face again.

Brett Favre went into the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, with the committee taking six seconds to make a decision. Not one motherf***er batter one eyelid.

Here are their career stats:

Player	Cmp%	G	Rate	Y/A	Int%	Y/G	C/G	A/G​	4QC
Brett Favre	62.0	302	86	7.1	3.3	237.9	20.9	33.7	30
Eli Manning	59.7	201	83.7	7.1	3.2	239.9	20.3	34	30

Yeah.

View attachment 973556

Shut the f*** up.

Eli is a HOFer but there are three major differences I think. Favre started his career in less pass happy league. Also, it's not a good look for Eli that he had a career .500 record. Also Eli never came close to an MVP, I think Favre had 2 or 3.

 

[Machinehead]

Eli is a HOFer but there are three major differences I think. Favre started his career in less pass happy league. Also, it's not a good look for Eli that he had a career .500 record. Also Eli never came close to an MVP, I think Favre had 2 or 3.

Who was his competition for those MVP's? The sidekick from Shrek?

There's another guy that threw 7,000 interceptions.

The QB position wasn't what it is now until like, probably within the last ten years. 27 of the top 50 quarterbacks all-time by rating are active. The entire league is a top 50 quarterback.

That's what Eli is getting compared to by these animals on the internet.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Who was his competition for those MVP's? The sidekick from Shrek?

View attachment 973571

There's another guy that threw 7,000 interceptions.

The QB position wasn't what it is now until like, probably within the last ten years. 27 of the top 50 quarterbacks all-time by rating are active. The entire league is a top 50 quarterback.

That's what Eli is getting compared to by these animals on the internet.

Did the QBs get better or did the rules change to favor that passing game?

 

[Machinehead]

Did the QBs get better or did the rules change to favor that passing game?

Both.

Quarterbacking got better, not necessarily the athletes.

The goalies from the 80's could have been "good" but they played before Patrick Roy destroyed the position and invented it over.

I'm tired of these Cowboys fans talking about Dak being better. Dak came into a league where tossing 30 and 9 is an average QB. Hurts is another one.

These guys are playing in an era where modern playbooks are removing interceptions from the meta, and every scoring play is a pass.

That's after Eli.

 

[Machinehead]

And another thing. I get that it's a team sport with the Superbowls, but you can't act like Eli was Trent Dilfer on the Ravens. He has a couple of strong Superbowl runs.

January 2012, he walked into Lambeau and outplayed Aaron Rodgers so bad that they would have stopped it if it was a fight. And that was after handing Matt Ryan his entire ass the week before.

He outplayed the best of generation head to head in big games.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Both.

Quarterbacking got better, not necessarily the athletes.

The goalies from the 80's could have been "good" but they played before Patrick Roy destroyed the position and invented it over.

I'm tired of these Cowboys fans talking about Dak being better. Dak came into a league where tossing 30 and 9 is an average QB. Hurts is another one.

These guys are playing in an era where modern playbooks are removing interceptions from the meta, and every scoring play is a pass.

That's after Eli.

Eli missing out on the HOF his first year of eligibility is mostly due to Kevin Gilbride's unnecessarily complicated offense that led to a lot more turnovers that you'd get from most other OCs.

 

[NickyFotiu]

He will get in eventually. He just didn't have a first ballot career. Probably not next year either based on QBs next year. Maybe in his 3rd year. I think Kurt Warner had to wait till his 3rd year of eligibility.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I understand what you are saying but that reminds me of a line I just heard from a hof voter not voting for Eli on first ballot. He said he had hof moments but not a hof career. He said Eli should get in but not first ballot. If you take away the Superbowl hyperbole fron Joe do you see a HOF career?

I can't honestly answer your Johnny Unitas question. I heard he was the man when I was growing up but he was nearing the end when I started watching.

This is the dumbest argument ever. What difference is it when he gets in? You either consider the guy a HOFer or you don't. Why does someone need to pay their dues waiting for a year some writer finally thinks, "ok I'm now ready to vote for him!" Did his stats suddenly improve?

 

[NickyFotiu]

This is the dumbest argument ever. What difference is it when he gets in? You either consider the guy a HOFer or you don't. Why does someone need to pay their dues waiting for a year some writer finally thinks, "ok I'm now ready to vote for him!" Did his stats suddenly improve?

Some guys are slam dunks and some guys aren't. I said for a while that outside of the 2 Superbowls that it was a solid but not slam dunk case. I do think he will make it when the timing is right. Has to do with who else is being voted on. I read Eli didn't make the cut from 15 to 10 this year. I think the top 7 are automatically finalists next year if they don't get in.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Some guys are slam dunks and some guys aren't. I said for a while that outside of the 2 Superbowls that it was a solid but not slam dunk case. I do think he will make it when the timing is right. Has to do with who else is being voted on. I read Eli didn't make the cut from 15 to 10 this year. I think the top 7 are automatically finalists next year if they don't get in.

Eli didn't just win 2 SBs, he was a two time SB MVP. He is a slam dunk HOFer based on that alone.

Eli aside, I will never agree with the timing argument. A HOFer is a HOFer....unless they create a separate Hall for 1st ballot guys etc, what changes from one year to the next that makes a players case stronger or weaker? Obviously it's not their stats, so it's clearly personal with some of these voters, which makes the entire process a sham. Look how long it took a guy like Harry Carson to get in.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Eli didn't just win 2 SBs, he was a two time SB MVP. He is a slam dunk HOFer based on that alone.

Eli aside, I will never agree with the timing argument. A HOFer is a HOFer....unless they create a separate Hall for 1st ballot guys etc, what changes from one year to the next that makes a players case stronger or weaker? Obviously it's not their stats, so it's clearly personal with some of these voters, which makes the entire process a sham. Look how long it took a guy like Harry Carson to get in.

Jim Plunkett won 2 Superbowls and will never get in. Some people think Strahan and the defense was more the MVP in the game the Giants scored 17 points in.
For right or wrong who you are going against in a year matters. Thats how its been. Kurt Warner went to 3 Superbowl and got in on his third try. Guys like Brady, Peyton and Montana were slam dunk first ballot. Ditto Lawrence Taylor. I do think Eli will make it. I think next year is possible but probably in his 3rd year.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Both.

Quarterbacking got better, not necessarily the athletes.

The goalies from the 80's could have been "good" but they played before Patrick Roy destroyed the position and invented it over.

I'm tired of these Cowboys fans talking about Dak being better. Dak came into a league where tossing 30 and 9 is an average QB. Hurts is another one.

These guys are playing in an era where modern playbooks are removing interceptions from the meta, and every scoring play is a pass.

That's after Eli.

To add on to your points, the entire rulebook for playing defense in the past 10 years has been modified so the QB isn't allowed to be touched & the d backs are flagged for staring too hard in the receivers direction. Plus the ridiculous rules that make it impossible to call intentional grounding.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Jim Plunkett won 2 Superbowls and will never get in. Some people think Strahan and the defense was more the MVP in the game the Giants scored 17 points in.
For right or wrong who you are going against in a year matters. Thats how its been. Kurt Warner went to 3 Superbowl and got in on his third try. Guys like Brady, Peyton and Montana were slam dunk first ballot. Ditto Lawrence Taylor. I do think Eli will make it. I think next year is possible but probably in his 3rd year.

We fundamently disagree & that's fine, but Plunkett wasn't a multiple SB MVP.

Here's the list of guys who've done that.

Eli
Bart Starr
Terry Bradshaw
Joe Montana
Pat Mahomes
Tom Brady

All of these guys are slam dunk HOFers, including Eli. So what is the point of these idiots dragging it out to next yeat's ballot? Are they proving a point?

Sorry this issue has stuck in my craw for a very long time, nothing anyone can say will change my mind on this. I'll have you know it's not an Eli specific thing, it's a problem I have with the process for both Football & Baseball. Shit like guys leaving dudes off their ballots entirely just to be petty, yet players like Harold Baines getting voted in. The HOFs in every sport have been tainted, IMO.