Post-Game Talk: FLYERS CLINCH PLAYOFF SPOT; GIROUX HAT TRICK| #82 | Rangers 0 at FLYERS 5 | Sat., Apr. 7, 2018

[deadhead]

Problem is it's more like a bottom 8.

 

[kelmitchell]

in the end all fans can do is voice their displeasure and not buy tickets or merchandise. the ownership group and management team do what they think is best for them. the attitude of hextall that he doesn't need or have to explain anything or can lie to the fans because they are dumb is what pisses off alot of people about him

Haven't been to a game the last 2 seasons for that exact reason and i used to be a season ticket holder

 

[tucson83]

What are you talking about?
This team has just gone through a major rebuild, check the 2013-14 roster.
They have 5 top young players who are 21 and younger, and a flood of talent on the way.
Yet they've still managed to make the playoffs 2 of the last 4 seasons.

Compare to say NJ who missed the playoffs five straight seasons since they lost in the SC finals.
TB missed the playoffs 5 of 6 seasons before putting the current team together.
Toronto made the playoffs 1 of 11 seasons before Babcock got them there last year
The Penguins were terrible for four years, 69,65, 58, 58 points before getting their superstars (Fleury #1-03, Malkin #2-04, Crosby #1-05, Staal #2-06)
Winnipeg made the playoffs twice in 17 years before this season, but have patiently put a team together the last few years (Schiefele #7-11, Trouba #9-12, Ehlers #9-14, Conner #17-15, Laine #2-16)

The two keys are to patiently build a talent base, then the tough part is to maintain the talent base when you start winning and drafting late (Boston, Washington have done that over decades). Eventually you run out of luck, see Detroit, and you have to rebuild. Great GMs can reload in 2-3 years if they have a solid talent base to build on, otherwise it takes 5-6.

When Hextall took over, this was an old team with a core of young players, bound by tough cap constraints and lacking prospects due to trading picks and prospects and poor drafting after the 1st round. He kept the core, dumped the rest, and has done a great job of obtaining picks and finding talent in later rounds.

where's your proof that his picks are working in the nhl? are you dreaming picks playing right now on this team? are they producing on the flyers? besides sanheim. provy, who else?

 

[Striiker]

where's your proof that his picks are working in the nhl? are you dreaming picks playing right now on this team? are they producing on the flyers?

Provorov was 1st in defensemen goals and had 41 points

Sanheim played great in limited time, and nearly zero PP time.

Patrick had an awesome 2nd half of the year.

Konecny had 20 goals and 34 points in the final 43 games. On pace for 38 goals and 65 points.

Hows that for proof? Maybe dry your eyes and watch some hockey games.

 

[kelmitchell]

Provorov was 1st in defensemen goals and had 41 points

Sanheim played great in limited time, and nearly zero PP time.

Patrick had an awesome 2nd half of the year.

Konecny had 20 goals and 34 points in the final 43 games. On pace for 38 goals and 65 points.

Hows that for proof? Maybe dry your eyes and watch some hockey games.

I bet yall wont get butt naked and wrestle

 

[deadhead]

There's no way to know what a player in juniors and the AHL will do in the NHL until they get there, but it's certainly a good sign when you have one of the top centers, the top goalie, and a number of 40+ goal scorers in junior hockey. Or that players like NAK and Vorobyev are putting up top Corsi numbers in the AHL (i.e., not just cherry picking and padding statistics, which won't translate to the next level). And we traded one of our three top ten NCAA scorers because the other two were better players. And our kids in the SHL are hanging in there in a men's league.

Collectively, our talent pool matches up against any team in the NHL.
Problem is it'll take 2-3 years for them to arrive, but each season from now on the talent depth will improve.
Oh yeah, and we have #15 and #19 in this year's draft (unless St Louis wins the lottery).

 

[Jettany]

what's nauseating is watching this team playing the same crap hockey for over 10 years and there's never any accountability on fo, it's excuse after excuse because they love their former flyers that's putting a team that cant play together. it's never going to work, it never has worked. if it has worked, it should have been in 2010 and 1997 we should have won cups, but they havent, that's on the fo, sorry but that's how things work, they are no excuses, it's either this fo can win cups or that cant and make serious changes. you shouldnt waste over 20 years and expect things to change with the same fo because you dont want to go a different direction.

i understand you dont like changes but in reality you have make them otherwise the cup drought continues until they do.

Didn’t they go to the finals 8 years ago. Is this a serious post? Someone sounds real pissed they made the playoffs. Lol

 

[deadhead]

The problem with this team is Snider pushed Holmgren to win now, so they spend money, traded for Pronger, then when he went down traded for MacDonald and Streit, didn't maintain their European scouting group, and so on.

It took a few years, but the combination of the salary cap, aging players and bad scouting dug a deep hole.

Hextall spent the last four years digging out of that hole.

 

[baudib1]

The digging out of the hole period ended with the Lecavalier trade, which was brilliant. Hextall has chosen to stick with MacDonald and took on bad contracts ever since.

 

[dats81]

Just one observation in regard to Hakstol: his line combinations are solid in general. It's his usage of personnel especially in close games that suck.

The current 4th line of Lehtera - Laughton - Read has actually looked good the last few games.
Forechecking well, even creating quality scoring chances... can't ask for much more.

 

[FlyersMania2]

There's no way to know what a player in juniors and the AHL will do in the NHL until they get there, but it's certainly a good sign when you have one of the top centers, the top goalie, and a number of 40+ goal scorers in junior hockey. Or that players like NAK and Vorobyev are putting up top Corsi numbers in the AHL (i.e., not just cherry picking and padding statistics, which won't translate to the next level). And we traded one of our three top ten NCAA scorers because the other two were better players. And our kids in the SHL are hanging in there in a men's league.

Collectively, our talent pool matches up against any team in the NHL.
Problem is it'll take 2-3 years for them to arrive, but each season from now on the talent depth will improve.
Oh yeah, and we have #15 and #19 in this year's draft (unless St Louis wins the lottery).

But doesn't that contradict half the arguments you make? Ya know when you say he has no options and argue that the AHL guys aren't ready yet? Though we haven't seen them play...

 

[Lindberg]

With this roster?

Yes. It does.



If anyone gets “exploited” it’ll be because Pittsburgh has a deeper roster. This isn’t Xbox.

So by that standard Craig Berube was a significantly better coach. He managed to get a worse team into the playoffs.

The Flyers are going to get exploited since Hakstol doesn't know how to play not to lose. You can't roll out Filppula, Lehtera, Manning and MacDonald in the last few minutes of a must win game. Here's what you do to win in games like that: DOUBLE SHIFT YOUR BEST PLAYERS. Hakstol's refusal to do that is why it took the last game of the season to clinch a playoff spot.

 

[Rebels57]

So by that standard Craig Berube was a significantly better coach. He managed to get a worse team into the playoffs.

The Flyers are going to get exploited since Hakstol doesn't know how to play not to lose. You can't roll out Filppula, Lehtera, Manning and MacDonald in the last few minutes of a must win game. Here's what you do to win in games like that: DOUBLE SHIFT YOUR BEST PLAYERS. Hakstol's refusal to do that is why it took the last game of the season to clinch a playoff spot.

We have to be in a position to win late in a must-win game first. Let's see if that even happens.

 

[FlyersMania2]

We have to be in a position to win late in a must-win game first. Let's see if that even happens.

Eh, they could be up by 1 or 2 and we'd still play protect the close deficit

 

[deadhead]

But doesn't that contradict half the arguments you make? Ya know when you say he has no options and argue that the AHL guys aren't ready yet? Though we haven't seen them play...

Doesn't contradict anything. In fact, a weird surmise.
Frost is a top prospect, but you can't declare him a NHL 1C or even a 3C just because he dominated the CHL.
Same with Hart as goalie.

Part of player development is determining the optimal time to promote a player, too early and they may hurt the team and be so overwhelmed they regress, too late and you're losing out on a season where they could help the team and climb the learning curve.

Two different issues, the quality of a prospect and their development path. Some players are uber-talented and quickly make the league, others take a while to develop but can become top players. Some have great raw talent but never harness it.

Look at Brad Marchand, didn't make the NHL until he was 22, then has steadily improved over 6 years to where he's an elite player. Karlsson (Vegas) didn't make the BJs until he was 23, after being traded by Anaheim [so little valued he was traded with a 2nd rd pick at the TDL for 13 games of James Wisniewski), after two years of decent but nothing special play as their 3C, was shipped to Vegas with a 1st and 2nd rd pick so they could keep Jenner.

 

[Tripod]

Eh, they could be up by 1 or 2 and we'd still play protect the close deficit

No way man. The Hakpoint is over. It's all about winning now!

 

[Flyerfan4life]

No way man. The Hakpoint is over. It's all about winning now!

i think you give Haktard way to much credit...

he wasnt even sure how the coachs challenge worked this season.. i wouldnt put it past him to not realize there is no single points in the POs

 

[deadhead]

So by that standard Craig Berube was a significantly better coach. He managed to get a worse team into the playoffs.

Mason got both the 2013-14 and 2015-16 Flyers into the playoffs, when he was good, he was very good, when he was bad, he was awful.

That 2013-14 team had 7 forwards with 20+ goals, including Giroux with 86 points.
Kimmo, Streit, Coburn, Grossman, L Schenn, Meszaros/Gustsafsson on defense, which is why Holmgren traded a 2nd and 3rd for MacDonald, then added insult to injury by signing him to a 6yr/$30M extension.
The crazy thing is MacDonald had posted a CF% 47.1%/CFrel -5.4 the year before, and before he was traded, CF% 43.8%.CFrel -9.0.
[to be fair to MacDonald, he's consistently posted a postive E +/- as a Flyer, so he is more effective than his Corsi would suggest - probably due to his one elite skill, shotblocking]

It wasn't a bad team as long as it had good goaltending (9-12-2 with Emery in goal), but there was little upside as key players were close to the end of their careers (Kimmo, Streit and Vinnie).

 

[Lindberg]

Mason got both the 2013-14 and 2015-16 Flyers into the playoffs, when he was good, he was very good, when he was bad, he was awful.

That 2013-14 team had 7 forwards with 20+ goals, including Giroux with 86 points.
Kimmo, Streit, Coburn, Grossman, L Schenn, Meszaros/Gustsafsson on defense, which is why Holmgren traded a 2nd and 3rd for MacDonald, then added insult to injury by signing him to a 6yr/$30M extension.
The crazy thing is MacDonald had posted a CF% 47.1%/CFrel -5.4 the year before, and before he was traded, CF% 43.8%.CFrel -9.0.
[to be fair to MacDonald, he's consistently posted a postive E +/- as a Flyer, so he is more effective than his Corsi would suggest - probably due to his one elite skill, shotblocking]

It wasn't a bad team as long as it had good goaltending (9-12-2 with Emery in goal), but there was little upside as key players were close to the end of their careers (Kimmo, Streit and Vinnie).

That doesn't change the point being made. If your measuring a good coach strictly based off making the playoffs you're setting yourself up for failure. It is a notoriously low bar to hit and frankly not a good one.

That defense was trash in comparison to this defense.

 

[deadhead]

No it wasn't, Streit and Kimmo were playing well, and while not as talented as Ghost and Provorov at that point in their careers, they were also far more experienced. And Coburn was better than Sanheim currently is, especially paired with Kimmo.

Streit 82g 10-34 44 Corsi 51.8% CorsiRel 0.2 20:39
Kimmo 77g 6-29 35 Corsi 55.0% CorsiRel 4.5 20:20
Coburn 82g 5-12 17 Corsi 50.5% CorsiRel -0.6 22:27
Meszaros getting hurt really hurt, played 38 games

MacDonald/Grossman/L Schenn/Gustafsson isn't much different than MacDonald/Manning/Gudas/Hagg

 

[Lindberg]

Your memory must be foggy.

 

[Jtown]

The digging out of the hole period ended with the Lecavalier trade, which was brilliant. Hextall has chosen to stick with MacDonald and took on bad contracts ever since.

the fact that he got acctual assets for vinny and luke were unbelievable. I like vinny as a player on and off the ice, and i feel bad for him that it did not work out for him. But the league got fast, and vinny looked so very out of place.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

I didn’t want anything that drastic. Everyone’s wrong from time to time (not me, of course, but other people. I’ve never been wrong in my entire life).

I’m just trying to point out that there’s no point in making definitive negative statements when things aren’t finished. I can understand not being optimistic, but saying everything is over with 10+ games to go is a bit overboard.

I mean you have only been able to form an argument for what? 5 years?

Really, not that impressive.