Confirmed with Link: Fletcher out as GM (contract not renewed)

[nickschultzfan]

I don't feel like I'm going out on a limb by saying that losing Granlund or Dumba would have been worse than losing Haula, Tuch and, eventually, Scandella. The subsequent summer moves may have played out more favorably, but I don't think it would have been favorable enough to justify losing either of those guys to expansion.

I think you have to factor in the Cap as well. Wild would have $3 million extra cap space by losing Granlund. And could have kept Scandella and Pominville, who we could have bought out this summer.

Granlund + Cullen = 6.75 million
Haula + Tuch = 3.675 million

 

[Bazeek]

I think you have to factor in the Cap as well. Wild would have $3 million extra cap space by losing Granlund. And could have kept Scandella and Pominville, who we could have bought out this summer.

Granlund + Cullen = 6.75 million
Haula + Tuch = 3.675 million

Losing Granlund (or Nino) probably would have allowed us to hang onto Scandella and Pominville. I think a trade still would have happened eventually, because we'd be carrying a lot of defense after losing a crucial forward, but maybe the extra room would have given us more options there.

I still like it less than the scenario we actually ended up with though, as bad as it is.

 

[2Pair]

Granlund is miles more valuable than Tuch and Haula. WTF is going on?

 

[Wabit]

Vegas acquired Clayton Stoner, Teemu Pulkkinen and Reid Duke (!) for nothing before ripping off Minnesota because Fletch thought Charlie Coyle is a better player than Alex Tuch. Or, more likely, couldn't stomach the idea of giving up Coyle thanks to pride.

Coyle was coming off of a 56p season and had 42p the year before (39g combined between those 2 seasons) and had a $3.2m cap hit. (I can't believe I'm defending Coyle).
-Haula had a 26p season and had completely disappeared the last ~20 games (the Wild burnt JEE's first ELC year because of Haula's play). He was also looking at his last RFA contract ($2.2-$2.75 was the expected range on the boards). I don't even think Vegas in their wildest dreams had Haula as a 29g (55p) player.
-Tuch looked lost on the ice during his cup of coffee last year. He had good, but not blow your mind away, numbers in the AHL. Even as much as we've been drooling over Tuch since he left, he only matched Coyle's points total for the year.

What would MN have had to add for Vegas to take Coyle over Dumba/Brodin? It might not have been Tuch, but other than Greenway, Kaprizov, Kunnin, and JEE the Wild didn't have a whole lot of value. Maybe they have to add Haula as the throw in anyways?

 

[Saga of the Elk]

Coyle was coming off of a 56p season and had 42p the year before (39g combined between those 2 seasons) and had a $3.2m cap hit. (I can't believe I'm defending Coyle).
-Haula had a 26p season and had completely disappeared the last ~20 games (the Wild burnt JEE's first ELC year because of Haula's play). He was also looking at his last RFA contract ($2.2-$2.75 was the expected range on the boards). I don't even think Vegas in their wildest dreams had Haula as a 29g (55p) player.
-Tuch looked lost on the ice during his cup of coffee last year. He had good, but not blow your mind away, numbers in the AHL. Even as much as we've been drooling over Tuch since he left, he only matched Coyle's points total for the year.

What would MN have had to add for Vegas to take Coyle over Dumba/Brodin? It might not have been Tuch, but other than Greenway, Kaprizov, Kunnin, and JEE the Wild didn't have a whole lot of value. Maybe they have to add Haula as the throw in anyways?

This is a reasonable take. I would just say that the reason Tuch's AHL numbers weren't impressive is that his team sucked.
Finishing second as a rookie despite playing 16 fewer games than the top scorer is a job well done and a promising performance by any metric.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Everyone should read this list: NHL Expansion Draft protected list revealed

And then look at this: Elite Prospects - NHL Expansion Draft 2017

People praise George McPhee but half that list is pretty close to garbage compared to what teams couldn't protect.

Vegas acquired Clayton Stoner, Teemu Pulkkinen and Reid Duke (!) for nothing before ripping off Minnesota because Fletch thought Charlie Coyle is a better player than Alex Tuch. Or, more likely, couldn't stomach the idea of giving up Coyle thanks to pride.

No one did worse than Chuck Fletcher. And that's by a MILE. I don't mind defending Fletch for some things but this was awful. There's no defense for the giant gap between the way other guys handled this and the way Fletch did.

He is better.

 

[Wabit]

This is a reasonable take. I would just say that the reason Tuch's AHL numbers weren't impressive is that his team sucked.
Finishing second as a rookie despite playing 16 fewer games than the top scorer is a job well done and a promising performance by any metric.

I'm not saying it wasn't a positive metric. Pokemon was 1p less in 10 less games, and Reilly 7p less in the same amount of games. Iowa sucked, and it was by committee suckage.

It's not like Tuch made Vegas' opening night roster. He was an AHL callup after Haula and Marchessault got injured early in the season. He made the most of the opportunity and forced his way onto the roster. But if Vegas had any type of AHL depth he would have gotten sent back down sometime in his 32 game 4g/5a (9p) -10 stretch, he didn't look great during a lot of those games either.

Tuch looks to have a really good future ahead of him. Maybe he would have done similar things in MN when everyone got hurt 3 games into the season? That's an alternate universe question.

 

[Minnesnota]

-Haula had a 26p season and had completely disappeared the last ~20 games

Are you willfully being ignorant here or do you just not follow the team very closely?

The Wild traded for Hanzal and Haula get kicked to the 4th line where he had to play with Chris Stewart and Jordan Schroeder. Anyone who watched Haula play in college or in Iowa isn't really surprised he's doing well in an enhanced roll.

It's not like Tuch made Vegas' opening night roster. He was an AHL callup after Haula and Marchessault got injured early in the season. He made the most of the opportunity and forced his way onto the roster. But if Vegas had any type of AHL depth he would have gotten sent back down sometime in his 32 game 4g/5a (9p) -10 stretch, he didn't look great during a lot of those games either.

This is largely inaccurate. Tuch (Theodore & Shipyachov) were sent down because they were waiver-exempt and McPhee needed to submit his 23-man roster. It is widely known that Tuch earned his spot during training camp and was an opening night casualty simply for the reason that he didn't have to be put on waivers.

 

[Wabit]

Are you willfully being ignorant here or do you just not follow the team very closely?

The Wild traded for Hanzal and Haula get kicked to the 4th line where he had to play with Chris Stewart and Jordan Schroeder. Anyone who watched Haula play in college or in Iowa isn't really surprised he's doing well in an enhanced roll.


This is largely inaccurate. Tuch (Theodore & Shipyachov) were sent down because they were waiver-exempt and McPhee needed to submit his 23-man roster. It is widely known that Tuch earned his spot during training camp and was an opening night casualty simply for the reason that he didn't have to be put on waivers.

Yes Hanzal was brought in and took Haula's the 3rd line spot. 4C was the weak spot of the team at the time. Haula was supposed to fix that. He got pouty and didn't and pulled a vanishing act. It's why JEE was recalled from Sweden (burning a year of his ELC), to play 4C and Haula was moved to the wing.

Haula was 9th in FWD scoring, and would have paced out as a 29p season if he stayed at 3C for his 72 games. He was centering some combo of Parise, Nino, Pommer, Coyle for most of his season and they were all blowing him away as far as points. Hanzal came and in 20g put up half the points Haula did.

BB wanted the to be an energy line, a role Haula is suited for. It's not like he was trying to make him play a physical grinder position.

Yes Vegas sent some guys that "could" have made the opening night roster because of waivers, pretty much happens with every team in the NHL. It usually gets sugar coated with "he could have made the team, but we'd rather have him playing big minutes instead of 10mins a night in the NHL". Tuch was an injury callup, and the injuries happened early in the season.

Haula got injured and Shipachyov was recalled. A day later Marchessault got injured and Tuch got recalled. Tuch wasn't even the 1st choice for Vegas callups. Tuch made more of the opportunity and stuck in the NHL. Shipachyov went back to his KHL team after some drama.

 

[Minnesnota]

Yes Hanzal was brought in and took Haula's the 3rd line spot. 4C was the weak spot of the team at the time. Haula was supposed to fix that. He got pouty and didn't and pulled a vanishing act. It's why JEE was recalled from Sweden (burning a year of his ELC), to play 4C and Haula was moved to the wing.

Haula was 9th in FWD scoring, and would have paced out as a 29p season if he stayed at 3C for his 72 games. He was centering some combo of Parise, Nino, Pommer, Coyle for most of his season and they were all blowing him away as far as points. Hanzal came and in 20g put up half the points Haula did.

BB wanted the to be an energy line, a role Haula is suited for. It's not like he was trying to make him play a physical grinder position.

Yes Vegas sent some guys that "could" have made the opening night roster because of waivers, pretty much happens with every team in the NHL. It usually gets sugar coated with "he could have made the team, but we'd rather have him playing big minutes instead of 10mins a night in the NHL". Tuch was an injury callup, and the injuries happened early in the season.

Haula got injured and Shipachyov was recalled. A day later Marchessault got injured and Tuch got recalled. Tuch wasn't even the 1st choice for Vegas callups. Tuch made more of the opportunity and stuck in the NHL. Shipachyov went back to his KHL team after some drama.

This is some revisionist history mate.

Also, re: "Haula got injured and Shipachyov was recalled. A day later Marchessault got injured and Tuch got recalled. Tuch wasn't even the 1st choice for Vegas callups."

This is because Haula is a Center and Marchessault is a winger. At least apply some logic here.

 

[Wabit]

This is some revisionist history mate.

Also, re: "Haula got injured and Shipachyov was recalled. A day later Marchessault got injured and Tuch got recalled. Tuch wasn't even the 1st choice for Vegas callups."

This is because Haula is a Center and Marchessault is a winger. At least apply some logic here.

Nothing revisionist about what happened with Haula on the Wild in his last year. He even got benched 1 game in the Playoffs because of his play.

I was one of the few that said losing Haula was going to hurt this year. Most were ready to anoint JEE as 3C and Haula was expendable. I was also the one that said the Wild should go the 8 skater protection route (Brodin, Dumba, Spurgeon, Suter, Koivu, Parise, Pommer, and pick 1 FWD). GMCF did okay (or so it looked at the time) with the Haula/Tuch.

The Pommer+4th for Ennis, signing Quincey, letting Folin walk, waiting until the last minute to even get in contact with Granny/Nino to at least get a rough estimate of the money they'd want; were all big mistakes. Foligno+3rd for Scandella was a little light (the 3rd should have been a 2nd), but Scandella wasn't worth much after his awful play the whole season; and the market was depressed/saturated because of Vegas taking so many d-men.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

You keep trying to come up with a way where nothing good was going to Vegas... that scenario doesn't exist. The rules mandated we lost a valuable piece or two that we didn't want to lose.

In hindsight, I make the same move today.

It's the expansion draft rules that royally sucked, not the path the Wild took to navigate it.

Maybe, maybe not but smart teams protect their young assets, not lose them. And its not like the Wild were protecting all stars, they dont have any with the exception of the guy they completely lucked into in Staal.

 

[Bazeek]

Maybe, maybe not but smart teams protect their young assets, not lose them. And its not like the Wild were protecting all stars, they dont have any with the exception of the guy they completely lucked into in Staal.

How would you define a "young asset?" Under the 7-3 protection, the Wild had to expose one of Brodin (23) or Dumba (22) and one of Staal, Nino (24), Granlund (25), Coyle (25) or Zucker (25). Technically you can protect all of your 20-something forwards if you expose your 1C, but you still have a 23/22 year old top-4 defenseman exposed. Under the 8-man protection you can protect Brodin and Dumba, but have to expose 4 of those forwards.

I realize everyone kind of draws this line in a different place, but I'd say every name on that list other than Staal is a "young asset."

 

[Wabit]

How would you define a "young asset?" Under the 7-3 protection, the Wild had to expose one of Brodin (23) or Dumba (22) and one of Staal, Nino (24), Granlund (25), Coyle (25) or Zucker (25). Technically you can protect all of your 20-something forwards if you expose your 1C, but you still have a 23/22 year old top-4 defenseman exposed. Under the 8-man protection you can protect Brodin and Dumba, but have to expose 4 of those forwards.

I realize everyone kind of draws this line in a different place, but I'd say every name on that list other than Staal is a "young asset."

Well they could have exposed Spurgeon to protect the younger Brodin/Dumba.

 

[Bazeek]

Well they could have exposed Spurgeon to protect the younger Brodin/Dumba.

They could have, but I don't think exposing their #2 defenseman was ever really on the table. And I think it would have been worse than what we ended up with.

The only real alternative I see, with the full benefit of hindsight and my own biases taken into account, was exposing Brodin. But even then there's no guarantee that they take him over the exposed forward, especially if the most likely candidate there was Zucker.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

How would you define a "young asset?" Under the 7-3 protection, the Wild had to expose one of Brodin (23) or Dumba (22) and one of Staal, Nino (24), Granlund (25), Coyle (25) or Zucker (25). Technically you can protect all of your 20-something forwards if you expose your 1C, but you still have a 23/22 year old top-4 defenseman exposed. Under the 8-man protection you can protect Brodin and Dumba, but have to expose 4 of those forwards.

I realize everyone kind of draws this line in a different place, but I'd say every name on that list other than Staal is a "young asset."

Fair point but it's pretty clear now that CF didn't like any of those alternatives and instead picked the one where he convinces Vegas to take a non-core player (Haula) and for that gives them a prospect. So it feels like the Wild were never really at risk of losing a core player. I am just forever baffled that he couldn't find a way to protect Tuch so it makes me wonder if their scouting was that off on Tuch. Which has been my real point all along. It's almost unheard of that a team loses something they don't want to lose in an expansion draft.....even a stacked one. If nothing else, you dare McPhee to take a player you know he doesn't want.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Fair point but it's pretty clear now that CF didn't like any of those alternatives and instead picked the one where he convinces Vegas to take a non-core player (Haula) and for that gives them a prospect. So it feels like the Wild were never really at risk of losing a core player. I am just forever baffled that he couldn't find a way to protect Tuch so it makes me wonder if their scouting was that off on Tuch. Which has been my real point all along. It's almost unheard of that a team loses something they don't want to lose in an expansion draft.....even a stacked one. If nothing else, you dare McPhee to take a player you know he doesn't want.

Well, if the reports were right, McPhee had his pick of Tuch, Greenway or Kaprizov. A top prospect was just the cost of doing business in this case.

 

[Bazeek]

Well, if the reports were right, McPhee had his pick of Tuch, Greenway or Kaprizov. A top prospect was just the cost of doing business in this case.

Right. It was either lose a guy like Brodin/Zucker/whoever, or lose a guy that didn't seem to be in the long-term plans (Haula) and a guy that might end up being as good as Brodin/Zucker/whoever eventually. And of the 3 prospects that were on the table I still get the feeling that Tuch was the best one to lose in the long term, but I've always been higher on Greenway than I have any good reason to be.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Right. It was either lose a guy like Brodin/Zucker/whoever, or lose a guy that didn't seem to be in the long-term plans (Haula) and a guy that might end up being as good as Brodin/Zucker/whoever eventually. And of the 3 prospects that were on the table I still get the feeling that Tuch was the best one to lose in the long term, but I've always been higher on Greenway than I have any good reason to be.

And I have been pretty low on Greenway since he was drafted. He would've been beyond my preferred choice to go to Vegas, but I understand why Tuch was more appealing for them.

 

[Eye Floater]

Thought we would know by the end of this week. Guess not.

 

[nickschultzfan]

I am sure Fletcher's thinking was "I am not going to re-sign Haula, as he would block JEE. So, do I value Tuch/Greenway/Kaprizov less than Zucker/Staal/Dumba/Scandella? Yes. Ok. It's a good deal."

It's just that wasn't the way to look at it. Vegas draft could have been looked at like an ok thing because it's a way to dump a cap space, even if a good player is that cost. Even if that was a player like Granlund. Or force Vegas to take back a bad contract.

As Russo said on his latest podcast, the real problem wasn't that the Wild gave Tuch and Haula to Vegas, its that they couldn't get Pominville also heading out as well. Fletcher could have just stuck to his guns.

 

[Bazeek]

Thought we would know by the end of this week. Guess not.

Flahr pushed back the scouting meetings that I thought were going to press the issue as well. I wonder how patient they're going to be with this. If the Preds make it to the finals I assume Leipold isn't going to be that respectful of Poile if Fenton's still his guy.

It'd be a little funny if they really are waiting on the Preds, conduct the extra interviews to pass the time, and end up going with Fitzgerald anyway.

 

[Bazeek]

I am sure Fletcher's thinking was "I am not going to re-sign Haula, as he would block JEE. So, do I value Tuch/Greenway/Kaprizov less than Zucker/Staal/Dumba/Scandella? Yes. Ok. It's a good deal."

It's just that wasn't the way to look at it. Vegas draft could have been looked at like an ok thing because it's a way to dump a cap space, even if a good player is that cost. Even if that was a player like Granlund. Or force Vegas to take back a bad contract.

As Russo said on his latest podcast, the real problem wasn't that the Wild gave Tuch and Haula to Vegas, its that they couldn't get Pominville also heading out as well. Fletcher could have just stuck to his guns.

How were they going to get Pominville to waive?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I am sure Fletcher's thinking was "I am not going to re-sign Haula, as he would block JEE. So, do I value Tuch/Greenway/Kaprizov less than Zucker/Staal/Dumba/Scandella? Yes. Ok. It's a good deal."

It's just that wasn't the way to look at it. Vegas draft could have been looked at like an ok thing because it's a way to dump a cap space, even if a good player is that cost. Even if that was a player like Granlund. Or force Vegas to take back a bad contract.

As Russo said on his latest podcast, the real problem wasn't that the Wild gave Tuch and Haula to Vegas, its that they couldn't get Pominville also heading out as well. Fletcher could have just stuck to his guns.

Gross.

 

[Bazeek]

Gross.

Granlund as a cap-dump is definitely one of the weirder ideas I've seen on here.