GDT: Flames vs. Canucks 4/4 "your code name is Rittich?" (8:00pm)

[DFF]

If we get lucky and the Oilers embarrass us then maybe something will be done to Trevliving and Ward.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

To the oilers forum to troll I guess boyos.

I mean I could understand the desire if the Flames dominated sure, but in reality that’s righ up there with all of Ward’s decisions this season.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

We’ve now lost 3 seasons of prime Johnny, he’s likely to want the hell out of here. We’ve royaly messed up Sam, who also wants out. Mony and Lindy have taken steps, but it’s not close to enough and Gio is speeding out of control down the last stretch of the hill he’s on.

Ward needs to go immediately. Sutter is only one who could save this season.

 

[FlamerForLife]

the fact that the Canucks outplayed us every single game after they had lost 5 in a row coming into the mini-series speaks wonders about the flames, no way this team makes the playoffs and even if they do they're an easy out in round 1 like they always are

 

[Mazatt]

So I actually tracked the lines each time in the third to see how Ward would respond and adjust in the 3rd. First off, the Flames didn't play a bad game tbh. They exploded in the last minute or so of the 2nd which is bad but hopefully that doesn't happen again. The effort wasn't... bad, they just absolutely collapsed. Regardless, ehre's just the raw dump.

3rd period lines.
Lucic – Bennett – Dube
Tkachuk – Lindholm – Mangiapane
Gaudreau – Monahan – Ritchie
Mangiapane – Backlund – Nordstrom
Tkachuk – Lindholm – Dube
Bennett – Backlund – Lucic
Gaudreau – Monahan – Ritchie
Tkachuk – Lindholm – Mangiapane
Lucic – Bennett – Dube
Gaudreau – Monahan – Ritchie
Tkachuk – Lindholm – Mangiapane
Nordstrom – Backlund – Simon
Lucic – Bennett – Dube
Tkachuk – Lindholm – x (incomplete)
Tkachuk – Backlund – Mangiapane
Gaudreau – Monahan – Ritchie
Tkachuk – Monahan – Lindholm – Gaudreau – Andersson
Backlund – Dube – Mangiapane – Lucic – Giordano
Nordstrom – Bennett – Ritchie
Tkachuk – Lindholm – Mangiapane
Mangiapane – Backlund – Nordstrom
Nordstrom – Backlund – Simon
Lucic – Bennett – Dube
Mangiapane – Lindholm – Tkachuk
Ritchie – Monahan – Gaudreau
Simon – Backlund – Nordstrom



So, shoutout to @Fig for pointing this out a while back but Ward really seems like he throws things at the wall late in games to see what works. This was the perfect time, down 5-1, to see what worked. Looking through this, Tkachuk got time with Backlund, Lindholm, Mangiapane, and Dube in varying versions. Gaudreau - Monahan - Ritchie stuck together the entire 3rd outside of ONE shift in there where Nordstrom - Bennett - Ritchie were together. Simon only played with Backlund and Nordstrom. Mangiapane also some some time with the likes of Nordstrom.


Bottom line is there was no consistency outside of Gaudreau - Monahan - Ritchie which is not great. Felt like Gaudreau wasn't handling passes well which wasn't great, but that shouldn't stick long-term. I'm also not comfortable with them not at least trying Valimaki back on his proper side, feels like he works better when in that position. Maybe it's time for Mackey to come back? Kylington the saviour? Who knows.

 

[Mobiandi]

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ritchie... in year 7 of this core. Murray Edwards should be cleaning house for that as we speak

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

i don't know guys

what even is the point in watching this team?

The players are too good to successfully tank.

The coaches are too bad to successfully succeed.

The team's worst (top9) center is stapled to the center position while the team's best center is used as a swiss army knife

the team's worst defenseman is living off how good he was two years ago as a 37 year old and simply doesn't have "it" anymore.

the team's de facto best defenseman has yet to even play a damn game because the coaches are idiots

the team's de jure "best" defenseman would be a #4 on most teams in the league because his skillset is underwhelming

the team has no identity. too many slow plugs on a nightly basis to play fast and too many small stars to play big

Every year it's the same shit. Just another wasted season spinning wheels trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Fantenberg. Bartkowski. Brouwer. Rinaldo. Monahan as a center and letter-wearer. Nordstrom. Ineffective systems.

And the sad thing is, I believe wholeheartedly in this core, probably more than anyone on this board. The chess pieces are there, but they're too busy playing checkers.

This is a cup winning roster with just a few minor tweaks and a toptier coach.

People think I'm crazy for my love of a guy like Paul Byron... but guess what... a player like that would change this team's identity almost singlehandedly. Heck even last year the inferior Tobias Reider nearly did that in the playoffs, and no one would be dumb enough to prefer Reider over Byron.

People think I'm crazy for my love of a guy like Sam Bennett... but guess what, no other center on this team has edgework from his defensive blueline to the red line like this player, while supporting his bluelines as well as anyone. Put him in a role that fits him. And get him on your damn special teams ffs.

I think I've hit my DGAF point.

 

[Anglesmith]

This was a hard game to watch, but ironically not the worst hockey the Flames have played. They just made mistakes at the end of the second which rendered all of the positives as meaningless.

 

[Bounces R Way]

That was as thorough an ass whipping as I've seen in quite some time. Another 1st period flunk. Something is fundamentally flawed with the makeup of this hockey club.

 

[Mazatt]

This was a hard game to watch, but ironically not the worst hockey the Flames have played. They just made mistakes at the end of the second which rendered all of the positives as meaningless.

This is why I'm kind of surprised at the melt down after the game. Sure, get down 2-0 off of a shitty Markstrom play, but the team around him is rallying and applying strong pressure. They even get into the realm of a comeback off a great goal by Mangiapane (who would've though entering the zone with speed was a GOOD thing). Then it is immediately might be a defensive break down that is also a good example of how a player losing their coverage at the top of the zone and coming back down with speed is good (though I also give Monahan fault for committing to Pettersson despite Valimaki having a better angle, and that anyone who is going to make you pay isn't from the half-wall, it'll be the guy he passes to). Then you get to the 4th goal against and it's just bad all around on Tkachuk in a way that's inidcative of his play this entire. A weak breakout play that leads to a turnover, and the Canucks are able to get chance after chance while he is slowly getting up to go and barely attempt to back check while his man goes in and wires it. 5th goal is a result of trying to force too much offence for the prior situations imo.

Like, all in all the Flames were playing a good game up until the end of the 2nd and there was never any outright "domination" at any point. It was an even game but the Flames had their defensive collapses taken advantage of while Holtby stood tall for the Canucks.

 

[Fig]

I can't help but think that there's some weird method to that madness that Ward is deploying. Like he goes into the series saying there's no bad teams in the division after the Canucks get spanked badly by Toronto and Montreal. His main criticisms about losses were often about giving an F or not playing up to a certain intensity. Weirdly, while the comments make sense while I fume at the end result, when my head cools, I don't generally feel that intensity or his other comments are the biggest problem. So somehow, he's looking at something different and using different metrics on purpose, or some of you guys are right and he's just bad.

In the Vancouver match up, it was almost like he was relishing in the opportunity to see and learn like a mad scientist if the Flames can win with their hands tied behind their back because he knows it's not even going to be close if the hands aren't tied. The Flames must work for every win and can't coast to victory. He sets the handicap close, so there should always be an opportunity to eke out the win in his paper simulation.

Thanks @Mazatt for tracking those 3rd period lines. Like you mention, I kinda had an idea he was doing funny things on purpose, but after seeing it in black and white, it's still kinda weird and odd and almost unbelievable to see. It's not like he's fixated on bad lines like Gully. You could look at that data and wonder if he's literally inventing bad lines on purpose to test. Like a person who gets 0% on a multiple choice quiz of 20 questions so he had to know the answers to get all the questions wrong on purpose. Like forcing the team to create lots of video of failures they can learn from, vs a ton of video of nifty easy plays?

Ward's definitely giving the lines a couple chances to try things or something, but he's also seemingly definitely blending the lines a few times during the period as well to see if he can luck into something/test several theories out or something. I don't get WTF Markstrom was doing though.

If my weird theory is correct and Ward is indeed testing something crazy, I wonder if he will suddenly start steam rolling teams once they start falling to injury line juggling and possibly even Covid quarantine line juggling. Maybe that's his crazy idea and he's planning to get a crazy advantage via a predicted league wide man games lost. So he's getting a head start by by testing crazy combos now and getting a few laps ahead in the marathon?

 

[DFF]

This was a hard game to watch, but ironically not the worst hockey the Flames have played. They just made mistakes at the end of the second which rendered all of the positives as meaningless.

The team has shown they can play well. That’s not the problem. The problem is the inconsistency, the not ready to play, the easy to be pressured, the collapses, the giveaways, the breakdowns...

I believe this team can not win, not with this coach.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I can't help but think that there's some weird method to that madness that Ward is deploying. Like he goes into the series saying there's no bad teams in the division after the Canucks get spanked badly by Toronto and Montreal. His main criticisms about losses were often about giving an F or not playing up to a certain intensity. Weirdly, while the comments make sense while I fume at the end result, when my head cools, I don't generally feel that intensity or his other comments are the biggest problem. So somehow, he's looking at something different and using different metrics on purpose, or some of you guys are right and he's just bad.

In the Vancouver match up, it was almost like he was relishing in the opportunity to see and learn like a mad scientist if the Flames can win with their hands tied behind their back because he knows it's not even going to be close if the hands aren't tied. The Flames must work for every win and can't coast to victory. He sets the handicap close, so there should always be an opportunity to eke out the win in his paper simulation.

Thanks @Mazatt for tracking those 3rd period lines. Like you mention, I kinda had an idea he was doing funny things on purpose, but after seeing it in black and white, it's still kinda weird and odd and almost unbelievable to see. It's not like he's fixated on bad lines like Gully. You could look at that data and wonder if he's literally inventing bad lines on purpose to test. Like a person who gets 0% on a multiple choice quiz of 20 questions so he had to know the answers to get all the questions wrong on purpose. Like forcing the team to create lots of video of failures they can learn from, vs a ton of video of nifty easy plays?

Ward's definitely giving the lines a couple chances to try things or something, but he's also seemingly definitely blending the lines a few times during the period as well to see if he can luck into something/test several theories out or something. I don't get WTF Markstrom was doing though.

If my weird theory is correct and Ward is indeed testing something crazy, I wonder if he will suddenly start steam rolling teams once they start falling to injury line juggling and possibly even Covid quarantine line juggling. Maybe that's his crazy idea and he's planning to get a crazy advantage via a predicted league wide man games lost. So he's getting a head start by by testing crazy combos now and getting a few laps ahead in the marathon?

You're giving Ward way too much credit.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Why did Tkachuk get 4 more minutes than Gaudreau last night? Took my family for vacation so missed the last 2 periods but I feel like if you're trailing you probably want 13 out there as much as possible?

 

[DomBarr]

I can't help but think that there's some weird method to that madness that Ward is deploying. Like he goes into the series saying there's no bad teams in the division after the Canucks get spanked badly by Toronto and Montreal. His main criticisms about losses were often about giving an F or not playing up to a certain intensity. Weirdly, while the comments make sense while I fume at the end result, when my head cools, I don't generally feel that intensity or his other comments are the biggest problem. So somehow, he's looking at something different and using different metrics on purpose, or some of you guys are right and he's just bad.

In the Vancouver match up, it was almost like he was relishing in the opportunity to see and learn like a mad scientist if the Flames can win with their hands tied behind their back because he knows it's not even going to be close if the hands aren't tied. The Flames must work for every win and can't coast to victory. He sets the handicap close, so there should always be an opportunity to eke out the win in his paper simulation.

Thanks @Mazatt for tracking those 3rd period lines. Like you mention, I kinda had an idea he was doing funny things on purpose, but after seeing it in black and white, it's still kinda weird and odd and almost unbelievable to see. It's not like he's fixated on bad lines like Gully. You could look at that data and wonder if he's literally inventing bad lines on purpose to test. Like a person who gets 0% on a multiple choice quiz of 20 questions so he had to know the answers to get all the questions wrong on purpose. Like forcing the team to create lots of video of failures they can learn from, vs a ton of video of nifty easy plays?

Ward's definitely giving the lines a couple chances to try things or something, but he's also seemingly definitely blending the lines a few times during the period as well to see if he can luck into something/test several theories out or something. I don't get WTF Markstrom was doing though.

If my weird theory is correct and Ward is indeed testing something crazy, I wonder if he will suddenly start steam rolling teams once they start falling to injury line juggling and possibly even Covid quarantine line juggling. Maybe that's his crazy idea and he's planning to get a crazy advantage via a predicted league wide man games lost. So he's getting a head start by by testing crazy combos now and getting a few laps ahead in the marathon?

He is a 58 year old rookie head coach whose claim to fame is being a power play genius AND coaching Lucic when Lucic was great. I am not sure why we keep thinking he is going to get this team to commit.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I can't help but think that there's some weird method to that madness that Ward is deploying. Like he goes into the series saying there's no bad teams in the division after the Canucks get spanked badly by Toronto and Montreal. His main criticisms about losses were often about giving an F or not playing up to a certain intensity. Weirdly, while the comments make sense while I fume at the end result, when my head cools, I don't generally feel that intensity or his other comments are the biggest problem. So somehow, he's looking at something different and using different metrics on purpose, or some of you guys are right and he's just bad.

In the Vancouver match up, it was almost like he was relishing in the opportunity to see and learn like a mad scientist if the Flames can win with their hands tied behind their back because he knows it's not even going to be close if the hands aren't tied. The Flames must work for every win and can't coast to victory. He sets the handicap close, so there should always be an opportunity to eke out the win in his paper simulation.

Thanks @Mazatt for tracking those 3rd period lines. Like you mention, I kinda had an idea he was doing funny things on purpose, but after seeing it in black and white, it's still kinda weird and odd and almost unbelievable to see. It's not like he's fixated on bad lines like Gully. You could look at that data and wonder if he's literally inventing bad lines on purpose to test. Like a person who gets 0% on a multiple choice quiz of 20 questions so he had to know the answers to get all the questions wrong on purpose. Like forcing the team to create lots of video of failures they can learn from, vs a ton of video of nifty easy plays?

Ward's definitely giving the lines a couple chances to try things or something, but he's also seemingly definitely blending the lines a few times during the period as well to see if he can luck into something/test several theories out or something. I don't get WTF Markstrom was doing though.

If my weird theory is correct and Ward is indeed testing something crazy, I wonder if he will suddenly start steam rolling teams once they start falling to injury line juggling and possibly even Covid quarantine line juggling. Maybe that's his crazy idea and he's planning to get a crazy advantage via a predicted league wide man games lost. So he's getting a head start by by testing crazy combos now and getting a few laps ahead in the marathon?

I get what you’re saying and why, but I think you’re looking at the glass half full. I see a coach who’s desperate and throwing any kind of **** to see what sticks. It’s not that hard, he has an excellent top 9, he just needs to employ it and the players have to go play.

I see a group where the players are frustrated and look divided and look like they’re quitting on the coach.

 

[DFF]

Why did Tkachuk get 4 more minutes than Gaudreau last night? Took my family for vacation so missed the last 2 periods but I feel like if you're trailing you probably want 13 out there as much as possible?

Tkachuk sucks but if you rewatch the game, Johnny didnt come to play. He got slightly better but he was totally unprepared. THIS is the problem with the team. Johnny is not the only one.

 

[Ainsy01]

I said this when they hired Ward, this team will NOT perform well under a players coach. They need an angry no nonsense head coach. As much as Peters turned out to be an awful human being, his no BS attitude had pretty much the same roster breaking point records.

 

[BudRobinson53]

Obviously, not one of our best games, but certainly not our worst. Some mistakes made this score / outcome look worse than it was. Markstrom had an off-night, it's why I was surprised they gave him the start in almost a meaningless game, with 2 important games on the horizon.

Hopefully, they were just looking forward to the back-to-back BOA and saving everything for the next 2!

 

[2023FriendshipTour]

We didn't play too awful. All it took was a 30 second meltdown and Vancouver capitalized. I feel this weekend series with the Oilers will determine our season or close to it.. If we can get 3 or 4 points out of it then we push forward. The Oilers played well against the Jets the other night, but didn't look good at all last night, as it felt like Winnipeg was in there zone non stop, so they aren't playing like world beaters or anything right now.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Tkachuk sucks but if you rewatch the game, Johnny didnt come to play.

Sure, but he's been the better player all season and has consistently gotten less ice time. Tkachuk is averaging 1:08 more ES TOI per game. Gaudreau is 22nd amongst all left wings and 70th amongst all forwards in ES TOI, why limit the ice time for an elite player like him?

It just doesn't make sense to not use your best left winger like he's your best left winger.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Bennett as a winger doesn't work because his instinct is to pass forward, not make drop passes, and if no one is ahead of him he doesn't want to slow the pace down. As a center, he is able to do exactly that, but as a winger he gets caught up ice. This is the sort of detail our coaching staffs are oblivious to.

Bennett has the offensive IQ of a 4th liner. Make all the bs justifications you want he just doesn’t have the IQ to be anything more than a 4C in this league. He can have good games occasionally and be in the top-9 but he’s never been consistent enough to warrant anything more and saying it’s because his tendencies are to pass forward is a massive cop out. The guy isn’t good offensively any way u slice it. 5+ years of seeing offensive possessions die on his stick because he’s god awful in transition. Either throws it at the net blindly or tries to beat his man by going through him which never ever works. Absolutely no flow to his offensive game and can’t make plays off the rush

 

[DFF]

Sure, but he's been the better player all season and has consistently gotten less ice time. Tkachuk is averaging 1:08 more ES TOI per game. Gaudreau is 22nd amongst all left wings and 70th amongst all forwards in ES TOI, why limit the ice time for an elite player like him?

It just doesn't make sense to not use your best left winger like he's your best left winger.

well, we all know Ward is clueless

 

[DFF]

We didn't play too awful. All it took was a 30 second meltdown and Vancouver capitalized. I feel this weekend series with the Oilers will determine our season or close to it.. If we can get 3 or 4 points out of it then we push forward. The Oilers played well against the Jets the other night, but didn't look good at all last night, as it felt like Winnipeg was in there zone non stop, so they aren't playing like world beaters or anything right now.

just put up a good effort against the bad oilers team and everything is fine

people forget quickly...like how we are now a contender earlier in the year after a couple wins against the pathetic canucks

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]