Speculation: Fire Rob Blake Blow it Up Offseason Thread (update: Robitaille, Blake and Hiller stay)

[chris kontos]

mgmt has set this team up to fail at a rate that makes me wonder if thier isnt more to all of this than simple incompetence. i imagine we'll all see if this team is any more than a tax write off or a hobby over the summer.
its depressing to me the way most of the young players are treated by a team thats made up of the polar opposite personell of what its stated philosophy is. its said change is good- here ANY change is good.

 

[King'sPawn]

Why is re-signing Lizotte an issue. Either he does well and stays up or he's healthy scratched/sent down. His contract isn't a burden.

The boogeymen fans see in bottom-six players astounds me.

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

I did find it funny that earlier in the year (and during last years playoffs) you had some here saying, "Who cares, he wouldn't be doing it in LA" in an attempt to dig at Faber and/or defend Blake, but all that really showed was just how clueless the Kings management and development staff is, that you wouldn't be confident that they could find a role for the guy who was the best rookie defenseman in the league.

Genuinely not trying to be argumentative - But I think the "Who cares, he wouldn't be doing it in LA" arguments were/are more centered around the fact that Faber wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what he did this year in Minnesota if he had signed/stayed in LA.

As others have pointed out, the Kings right defense is significantly stronger than the Wild's and that was the case going into opening day this year as well.

Doughty, Roy, and Spence (Plus Clarke) on the depth chart for LA to start the season - While for Minnesota we're looking at Spurgeon, Bogosian, and Goligoski.... There was clearly a spot for Faber on the Wild's right side - With LA, it's more debatable.

Additionally, and more importantly, Spurgeon was injured for the 1st month of the season - That created an even bigger hole on the right side for the Wild and an opportunity for Faber to step up and fill an unexpected need. He clearly took advantage of the opportunity and good on him for doing so but let's not act like that was a stroke of brilliance by the Wild coaching/management identifying that they had a star in the 21 year old d-man and choosing to give him big minutes over proven NHL defensemen as a result.

And I'm really not trying to take anything away from Faber, he's a sick player, took advantage of his opportunity, and clearly played well enough to earn the elevated minutes and serious Calder consideration.... I'm just saying opportunity plays a big factor in these things. We see it allllllllll the time in the NHL - players switching teams, getting an opportunity to slide into a bigger role with their new team, and they end up flourishing in that new environment/elevated role.

We can still fault Kings management for trading away a player they should've realized had star potential... But the argument that Faber wouldn't have done what he did this year if he had stayed in LA is pretty valid IMO and that's not a dig at Faber and not a defense of Kings management it's just a flat out reality given the depth LA has on their right side.

 

[Schmooley]

Why is re-signing Lizotte an issue. Either he does well and stays up or he's healthy scratched/sent down. His contract isn't a burden.

The boogeymen fans see in bottom-six players astounds me.

Healthy scratch or send down Lizotte? On what planet? Contract status wins over talent no matter what. Even two years ago he had a shit camp and start and they sent down JAD instead because of contract status.

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

Why is re-signing Lizotte an issue. Either he does well and stays up or he's healthy scratched/sent down. His contract isn't a burden.

The boogeymen fans see in bottom-six players astounds me.

I'll bite.

No hate to Lizotte but he isn't exactly built for the playoffs. 14 career playoff games.. 1 assist to show for it. Even for a 4th line/bottom 6 center, that's not good enough.

It also comes down to needs for the Kings. The Kings need size & toughness in their bottom 6 - Lizotte (although a solid player and a hard worker) brings neither. Additionally, the Kings need ice time for young players/prospects - Lizotte in the lineup means less ice time for a guy like Alex Turcotte or Akil Thomas.

Personally, I just don't really see a fit - So don't see a need to attempt to re-sign him. I'd much rather see a player like Turcotte, Thomas, or (next year potentially?) Helenius in that spot. Or alternatively, a 4th line center with a little size/grit.

 

[tny760]

Why is re-signing Lizotte an issue. Either he does well and stays up or he's healthy scratched/sent down. His contract isn't a burden.

The boogeymen fans see in bottom-six players astounds me.

only speaking for myself but if it's under this current coaching staff, his simple existence in the lineup means that he'll be overutilized and played up in the lineup. i do value his PKing and overall work ethic but that should solely exist in a 4th line roleplaying situation, he cannot be your 3rd line center in the playoffs. i know that's PLD's fault and that's another conversation entirely but that problem ain't about to change so fair or not, it now affects lizotte

i assume what people don't like is that he's ANOTHER roleplayer on a bottom 6 of roleplayers/JAGs when we have guys in the wings who may lack the polish that a coach wants but they have specific attributes that the team lacks (and quite frankly can be a bit more exciting). maybe you acquire a criminal or two as lombardi said. personally i'd be a bit more upset that trevor lewis is a full-time player but that's me

 

[SaltyElkHunter]

tear it all down it’s that simple. Keep the guys who are young and trending upward and the guys who perform to their contract. Shitcan everyone else. It’s not hard!

We can respect Kopitar and Drew as the hall of famers they are but to be honest they never led this team to shit! Just like the two hall of famers in the front office.

Blake needed Bourque and Sakic to get his selfish Mercenary ass a cup. He never let a tam to shit and why he was hired to be the ultimate leader of a franchise is in hindsight a complete waste of 100’s of millions of dollars and 6 years!

Luc is the same exact thing. Hall of fame player but needed Hull, Yzerman, and Lidstrom to achieve the ultimate goal in hockey. Once again why you have a mercenary in a prime leadership position is a masterclass in stupidity!

Drew and Anze are again hall of fame players but never did shit as leaders for the team. That fart sailed in the wind when Williams, Greene, and Stoll walked out the doors! Talent and Leadership don’t always go hand and hand! Maybe that’s why Messier won cups without 99 and Gretz fell into the 11-8 model!

 

[Kudelski37]

Why is re-signing Lizotte an issue. Either he does well and stays up or he's healthy scratched/sent down. His contract isn't a burden.

The boogeymen fans see in bottom-six players astounds me.

We have seen his ceiling and his inability to be effective in the playoffs. He would have to take a sizable pay cut to not count against the cap, if sent down next year. I believe Turcotte and Thomas are waiver eligible next season. He probably could fetch a pick on draft day. There is no reason to keep him.

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

tear it all down it’s that simple. Keep the guys who are young and trending upward and the guys who perform to their contract. Shitcan everyone else. It’s not hard!

It's not hard when posting about it on an online hockey forum lol. It is hard in reality.

Trading Doughty is difficult. Trading Kopitar is difficult (if you want to go that route). Trading PLD is nearly impossible. Trading Gavrikov is difficult.

Sure, trading Fiala, Danault, and Moore probably wouldn't be that hard but also those guys are technically performing to their contracts so maybe they would be staying in this hypothetical tear down?

It also becomes hard when you think about how you have to build it all back up again and likely endure years of bottom feeding while doing so. Which brings up the other point of the fact that this is a business and you'd have to convince ownership and fans that tearing it all down is the right decision - That's not exactly an easy task either.

 

[SaltyElkHunter]

It's not hard when posting about it on an online hockey forum lol. It is hard in reality.

Trading Doughty is difficult. Trading Kopitar is difficult (if you want to go that route). Trading PLD is nearly impossible. Trading Gavrikov is difficult.

Sure, trading Fiala, Danault, and Moore probably wouldn't be that hard but also those guys are technically performing to their contracts so maybe they would be staying in this hypothetical tear down?

It also becomes hard when you think about how you have to build it all back up again and likely endure years of bottom feeding while doing so. Which brings up the other point of the fact that this is a business and you'd have to convince ownership and fans that tearing it all down is the right decision - That's not exactly an easy task either.

Who said I was force trading Drew and Kopitar? Drew will ask for a trade if we rebuild 100% guaranteed!

You buy out PLD!

Your not getting out of the first round with this group you have to rebuild!

 

[King'sPawn]

Healthy scratch or send down Lizotte? On what planet? Contract status wins over talent no matter what. Even two years ago he had a shit camp and start and they sent down JAD instead because of contract status.

If Blake is still making decisions, keeping Lizotte is the least of the concerns.

If someone else is making decisions, then it's worth considering other decision trees are built.

Personally, I just don't really see a fit - So don't see a need to attempt to re-sign him. I'd much rather see a player like Turcotte, Thomas, or (next year potentially?) Helenius in that spot. Or alternatively, a 4th line center with a little size/grit.

I would, too. But depth centers to compete against is good when done properly. Lombardi had players like Thornton, Hunter, Moreau who weren't very productive. But it got players like King and Nolan to elevate their play.

only speaking for myself but if it's under this current coaching staff, his simple existence in the lineup means that he'll be overutilized and played up in the lineup. i do value his PKing and overall work ethic but that should solely exist in a 4th line roleplaying situation, he cannot be your 3rd line center in the playoffs. i know that's PLD's fault and that's another conversation entirely but that problem ain't about to change so fair or not, it now affects lizotte

i assume what people don't like is that he's ANOTHER roleplayer on a bottom 6 of roleplayers/JAGs when we have guys in the wings who may lack the polish that a coach wants but they have specific attributes that the team lacks (and quite frankly can be a bit more exciting). maybe you acquire a criminal or two as lombardi said. personally i'd be a bit more upset that trevor lewis is a full-time player but that's me

This is all fair, but as stated above, if we're not seeing coaching/managerial changes, Lizotte on the roster is further down my list of concerns.

I won't care about the charred smell in my house while the house is still on fire.

 

[johnjm22]

I love Lizotte, and would happily keep him as a 13th forward, but as long as he's under contract, the coaching staff will play him over Thomas/Turcotte. That's the problem.

I want to sign Trenin, and have Thomas centering the 4th line.

Turcotte-Thomas-Trenin

The triple T line.

 

[Nasti]

Regarding BLuc, I just remembered…one guy won the cup with Patrick Roy and the other with Dominik Hasek. They turned that experience into, “We can win the cup with Talbot and Rittich”.

 

[Lt Dan]

Regarding BLuc, I just remembered…one guy won the cup with Patrick Roy and the other with Dominik Hasek. They turned that experience into, “We can win the cup with Talbot and Rittich”.

I am wondering if they took shrooms and watched Vegas win the cup

As Mark Stone hoists:
"ok let's go get a misunderstood center with attitude problems and we can literally put ANYONE in goal!! It worked for Vegas!"

 

[bland]

Genuinely not trying to be argumentative - But I think the "Who cares, he wouldn't be doing it in LA" arguments were/are more centered around the fact that Faber wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what he did this year in Minnesota if he had signed/stayed in LA.

As others have pointed out, the Kings right defense is significantly stronger than the Wild's and that was the case going into opening day this year as well.

Doughty, Roy, and Spence (Plus Clarke) on the depth chart for LA to start the season - While for Minnesota we're looking at Spurgeon, Bogosian, and Goligoski.... There was clearly a spot for Faber on the Wild's right side - With LA, it's more debatable.

Additionally, and more importantly, Spurgeon was injured for the 1st month of the season - That created an even bigger hole on the right side for the Wild and an opportunity for Faber to step up and fill an unexpected need. He clearly took advantage of the opportunity and good on him for doing so but let's not act like that was a stroke of brilliance by the Wild coaching/management identifying that they had a star in the 21 year old d-man and choosing to give him big minutes over proven NHL defensemen as a result.

And I'm really not trying to take anything away from Faber, he's a sick player, took advantage of his opportunity, and clearly played well enough to earn the elevated minutes and serious Calder consideration.... I'm just saying opportunity plays a big factor in these things. We see it allllllllll the time in the NHL - players switching teams, getting an opportunity to slide into a bigger role with their new team, and they end up flourishing in that new environment/elevated role.

We can still fault Kings management for trading away a player they should've realized had star potential... But the argument that Faber wouldn't have done what he did this year if he had stayed in LA is pretty valid IMO and that's not a dig at Faber and not a defense of Kings management it's just a flat out reality given the depth LA has on their right side.

Why would Faber need to be a #1 defenseman out of the gate for this argument?

This entire discussion is about a few people stating that Faber would be in the AHL and not killing it in the NHL for the Kings had they not dealt him. First pairing, third pairing is irrelevant.

Using Walker and Durzi as blockades is irrelevant because Faber wasn't going to sign for anybody until the end of last year. And had they signed him, he couldn't be assigned to the AHL because it would have been after the clearance date which was March 3rd in 2023. He signed at the end of season on April 9th, which is exactly what would have happened if he were still a King.

So yes, it is entirely likely that he would not be a rookie of the year candidate as a 2nd/3rd pairing defenseman here, it is also incredibly unlikely that ANY team, including the Kings, would say no to a player that exceeded expectations in both college and national programs.

Using "he wouldn't even be playing in the NHL right now" as an excuse for being cool with that trade doesn't track.

And before RJ flies off the handle again, yes, I know you didn't say that but the comment that started this conversation two days ago DID say that, and it hasn't been the only one of late.

 

[Herby]

Genuinely not trying to be argumentative - But I think the "Who cares, he wouldn't be doing it in LA" arguments were/are more centered around the fact that Faber wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what he did this year in Minnesota if he had signed/stayed in LA.

As others have pointed out, the Kings right defense is significantly stronger than the Wild's and that was the case going into opening day this year as well.

Doughty, Roy, and Spence (Plus Clarke) on the depth chart for LA to start the season - While for Minnesota we're looking at Spurgeon, Bogosian, and Goligoski.... There was clearly a spot for Faber on the Wild's right side - With LA, it's more debatable.

Additionally, and more importantly, Spurgeon was injured for the 1st month of the season - That created an even bigger hole on the right side for the Wild and an opportunity for Faber to step up and fill an unexpected need. He clearly took advantage of the opportunity and good on him for doing so but let's not act like that was a stroke of brilliance by the Wild coaching/management identifying that they had a star in the 21 year old d-man and choosing to give him big minutes over proven NHL defensemen as a result.

And I'm really not trying to take anything away from Faber, he's a sick player, took advantage of his opportunity, and clearly played well enough to earn the elevated minutes and serious Calder consideration.... I'm just saying opportunity plays a big factor in these things. We see it allllllllll the time in the NHL - players switching teams, getting an opportunity to slide into a bigger role with their new team, and they end up flourishing in that new environment/elevated role.

We can still fault Kings management for trading away a player they should've realized had star potential... But the argument that Faber wouldn't have done what he did this year if he had stayed in LA is pretty valid IMO and that's not a dig at Faber and not a defense of Kings management it's just a flat out reality given the depth LA has on their right side.

Sports is a meritocracy, it is in most places around the league but not in LA.

Brock Faber was a better player this year than any defenseman on the Kings, that alone would have gotten him into the lineup anywhere else in the league. You think other teams are saying "We have this kid who is one of the best defensive players in the world on a $925k ELC, but we can't play him because of Matt Roy and Jordan Spence" ? That is complete lunacy and is not happening elsewhere. You have this belief that young players don't knock down doors and take spots, when that happens everywhere. Do you think if the Wild had Doughty, Roy and Spence that they wouldn't have played Faber? ZERO chance he doesn't play.

The Kings have a horrific track record of integrating young players into the lineup (especially without AHL time), don't make the mistake of thinking that the rest of the league is so clueless, especially with a huge talent like Faber. Brock Faber would have been playing, and playing a lot for every team in the NHL. There is not a team in the league where he wouldn't be one of the 2-3 best defenseman.

 

[tbrown33]

I love Lizotte, and would happily keep him as a 13th forward, but as long as he's under contract, the coaching staff will play him over Thomas/Turcotte. That's the problem.

I want to sign Trenin, and have Thomas centering the 4th line.

Turcotte-Thomas-Trenin

The triple T line.

This team needs a minimum contract/ELC guy as the 13th forward. They couldn't even field a full roster this year until LTIR hit.

 

[bland]

Sports is a meritocracy, it is in most places around the league but not in LA.

Brock Faber was a better player this year than any defenseman on the Kings, that alone would have gotten him into the lineup anywhere else in the league. You think other teams are saying "We have this kid who is one of the best defensive players in the world on a $925k ELC, but we can't play him because of Matt Roy and Jordan Spence" ? That is complete lunacy and is not happening elsewhere. You have this belief that young players don't knock down doors and take spots, when that happens everywhere. Do you think if the Wild had Doughty, Roy and Spence that they wouldn't have played Faber? ZERO chance he doesn't play.

The Kings have a horrific track record of integrating young players into the lineup (especially without AHL time), don't make the mistake of thinking that the rest of the league is so clueless, especially with a huge talent like Faber. Brock Faber would have been playing, and playing a lot for every team in the NHL. There is not a team in the league where he wouldn't be one of the 2-3 best defenseman.

While I completely disagree with their goals of contending now, if they are going to follow that plan then it makes perfect sense to send Clarke back down because he has some warts on some pretty important aspects of his game. Faber had none and would have actually accelerated their goal of contending quicker - but they were too impatient/short-sighted.

Imagine Faber's mobility and decision making out there right now instead of Roy passively sinking in too deep and somehow leaving both passing and shooting lanes wide open. If the cost is Fiala's one lousy goal, cool.

 

[BigKing]

@Sol @Raccoon Jesus
At the end of the day, I think Faber's talent is too high and the type of game he plays fits with this conservative organization/playing style that he would be undeniable, even in the face of the biggest prospect deniers in the league.

I hate this regime but still feel they ultimately would have got out of their own way on this one. At the same time, they traded him in the first place and they don't have a great track record. Of course. that track record also isn't "zero prospects play right away" and Faber is the most ready at the youngest age of any Blake draft pick. I think the latter would have won out.

It boils down to Faber is so good that he overcomes the potential roadblocks. And @Sol , I believe Faber is a stud regardless of being Minnesota Faber or LA Faber. *Maybe* he starts in the AHL in 2022-23 but outside of an injury, he'd be too good to be denied.

Even in the face of how this team's treats development, I would bet on Faber's talent winning out since it has happened at every stage of his career.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Sports is a meritocracy, it is in most places around the league but not in LA.

Brock Faber was a better player this year than any defenseman on the Kings, that alone would have gotten him into the lineup anywhere else in the league. You think other teams are saying "We have this kid who is one of the best defensive players in the world on a $925k ELC, but we can't play him because of Matt Roy and Jordan Spence" ? That is complete lunacy and is not happening elsewhere. You have this belief that young players don't knock down doors and take spots, when that happens everywhere. Do you think if the Wild had Doughty, Roy and Spence that they wouldn't have played Faber? ZERO chance he doesn't play.

The Kings have a horrific track record of integrating young players into the lineup (especially without AHL time), don't make the mistake of thinking that the rest of the league is so clueless, especially with a huge talent like Faber. Brock Faber would have been playing, and playing a lot for every team in the NHL. There is not a team in the league where he wouldn't be one of the 2-3 best defenseman.

I mean....yes and no.....you think if any team had Doughty, Roy and Spence on the right hand side, they would play an untested unknown rookie, over them just for shits n giggles? They might make a Jack Johnson move to slide him in, but he is right, the Wild ended up being the best landing spot for him to get in right away....I mean who is COL sitting at the beginning of the year, Makar, Byram, or Toews? To slide Faber in?

This team needs a minimum contract/ELC guy as the 13th forward. They couldn't even field a full roster this year until LTIR hit.

That is completely false, but fits the narrative for the board

 

[tbrown33]

That is completely false, but fits the narrative for the board

I'm sorry, how is it false? Do you not remember game 1 of the regular season before RV was put on LTIR? This isn't up for debate, it happened.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I'm sorry, how is it false? Do you not remember game 1 of the regular season before RV was put on LTIR? This isn't up for debate, it happened.

You are right, one game out of 82......the absolute f***ing horror of it all,

Honestly, it's a miracle we all survived, I hope they learned their lesson to NEVER EVER put us in that position again, the indignity of it all.....man, make sure you mark yourself save from insignificant pissant details that don't mean f***all....

 

[fivehole32]

I hope PLD is suffering from a skin condition a la Marian Hossa and we LTIR his contract

 

[DoktorJeep]

It’s fine to have an undersized, slightly dirty, try hard tweener as your 4C and win the cup. See Colin Fraser getting paid league minimum and coming of a stint with a cup winner in Chicago.

Unfortunately, Lizotte is our #3C, and he’s a midget, who is best known as a slew footer, making well over $1M and was undrafted.

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

Why would Faber need to be a #1 defenseman out of the gate for this argument?

This entire discussion is about a few people stating that Faber would be in the AHL and not killing it in the NHL for the Kings had they not dealt him. First pairing, third pairing is irrelevant.

Using Walker and Durzi as blockades is irrelevant because Faber wasn't going to sign for anybody until the end of last year. And had they signed him, he couldn't be assigned to the AHL because it would have been after the clearance date which was March 3rd in 2023. He signed at the end of season on April 9th, which is exactly what would have happened if he were still a King.

So yes, it is entirely likely that he would not be a rookie of the year candidate as a 2nd/3rd pairing defenseman here, it is also incredibly unlikely that ANY team, including the Kings, would say no to a player that exceeded expectations in both college and national programs.

Using "he wouldn't even be playing in the NHL right now" as an excuse for being cool with that trade doesn't track.

And before RJ flies off the handle again, yes, I know you didn't say that but the comment that started this conversation two days ago DID say that, and it hasn't been the only one of late.

Yeah like you admit at the end of your post - I never said Faber needed to be a #1 d man out of the gate. I also never mentioned Durzi or Walker and never said I was cool with the trade. If other people are saying that, that's on them.

Idk man, I was mostly just addressing that when people claim "Who cares, he wouldn't be doing it in LA" - they're ultimately kind of correct in that (although granted it's a lazy take) due to the depth LA has on the right side. Tbh, Faber also likely wouldn't have been doing it in Minnesota if Spurgeon hadn't gone down to injury at the beginning of the season. The Spurgeon injury and the Wild's lack of depth/talent at right defense are MAJOR factors that led to Faber having an opportunity to shine and break out - Major factors that wouldn't have existed in LA.

The trade definitely isn't aging well. Fiala is sick but doesn't really seem to show up in the postseason, takes bad penalties, and is usually good for a bad turnover or two per game. Faber's looking like a beast and the 1st round pick would've been real nice to have.

Personally though, I just feel like the Fiala/Faber trade is pretty low on the list of Rob Blake mistakes - It's not great, but there's a number of other worse screw ups to complain about. Although that's a fun idea for a post/poll/thread lol - 'ranking Rob Blake's mistakes as GM from most egregious to minor fumbles'.