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Finland's status and reputation in the hockey world (merged)

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VeteranNetPresence said:
i'm just wondering why so many fins would rather have sweden win over canada. i thought you guys hated each other?
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For many of us, it's only when we face each others. Outside that it varies a lot more, some prefer seeing Sweden win, while some like me prefer gunning for Canada to win after Finland. Reasoning for that (for myself anyway), being that outside of us, Canada is the only country where hockey is truly the number 1 sports. Sure a gold medal would mean A LOT for the swedes as well (or the czechs, or russia, can't say the same for the US), and hockey is still one of the biggest sports there but it just isn't the same when it's literally the only team sport that the entire nation watches. For us soccer doesn't mean a thing, hell, for the vast majority of finns it means just as much as curling or syncronized swimming. For Sweden it's their number 1 sport.

I guess after Finland and Canada, I would pick Sweden next though. Russia? Not in a million years, same with Czech, never liked either.
 
Kharkov said:
FEL is pretty strong league too (not compared to KHL though)
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And perhaps not even compared to other leagues that pay their players more, have higher average attendance, or both.

'12/13 Average Attendance Figures:

1. Switzerland - National League A - 6,620
2. Germany - Deutsche Eishockey Liga - 6,172
3. Russia - Kontinental Hockey League - 6,106
4. Sweden - Elitserien - 5,717
5. Finland - SM-liiga - 5,213
6. Czech Republic - Extraliga - 5,169

(2nd Division league rankings from same source: 1. Sweden, 2. Germany, 3. Switzerland, 4. Russia, 5. Finland, 6. Czech.

As far as salaries go, it's hard to tell, but I know that KHL payrolls range between 6 and 40 million, and recent SEL yearly payrolls vary between $3.5 million and $13 million. Judging from the info here, the average player salaries suggest that the FEL (I still want to call it SM-Liiga) probably comes just behind that. That would make 5th after including Canada/USA, but I'm reasonably certain that Switzerland is actually up closer to the top of the European pay scale, so... maybe 6th.
 
Seems to be a completely pointless argument, kinda like talking to creationists.

I'm trying with actual results, measurable real world results. Opposite side is trying with their personal opinion based on their personal preference.

4 times in top #3 of 5 best on best olympics. Usa has 2 medals, Russia has 2 medals.
 
Ohashi_Jouzu said:
Pretty chauvinistic way to read the title of the thread: "Finland's status and reputation in the hockey world"... but I digress...

Even just keeping it to the men, is all we're looking for is a way to agree on where they stand in terms of international ranking for tournament purposes? Fine. #4. All day. Swedes won't agree, and I don't really either, but you know what, there's enough bronze in their history that we might as well say they could be knocking on #3. In the hockey world, though, here are the realities:

There are at least 4 other countries with leagues that supply more (and overall "better" - loosely identified through salary/contract "worth") players to the NHL.
There are at least 4 other countries with domestic leagues that pay their players more.
There are at least 3 other countries with higher domestic league attendance figures.
There are at least 3 other countries with arguably as good if not better success internationally (however you want to weigh gold vs silver vs bronze vs totals) - even "recently" (unless you apply diminishing weights toward the past like the IIHF, which I would agree is valid on some level, though the weights are arbitrary and not based on roster turnover, or anything of the like, at all).

But see, the problem is, if you want to put so much stock in the IIHF ranking, then you have to accept that Finland trails Sweden in this regard. So, even with the embarrassment of today (love seeing the US fail... sorry American bros), you have to convince everyone that "in the hockey world", Finland has to be "better" than at least two other countries between Canada, Russia, and the US (Czechs probably feeling left out, but meh) to cement themselves at #4...

Come on. That's not a "no-brainer" for everybody, and I'm surprised that Finns (like this crowi cat, lol) continue to feel so slighted every time this gets laid out in detail in a thread around here. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's a lot to consider unless you want to be really (almost uselessly) specific about what you're referring to.
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Reading this kind of stuff makes even more elite my bliss....

Hey, 5-0 ... end of the story...not yet, guess what tomorrow? Sverige Uh Oh...

If you go and see the kids playing ice hockey in Praha!...when are americans gonna left that delluded superiority complex, is it a matter of a 6-0 needed?...there is not such a top 4...historically there are 7-8 teams in similar level and depending on the circumstances 2 or 3 are on a higher place
 
Ohashi_Jouzu said:
And perhaps not even compared to other leagues that pay their players more, have higher average attendance, or both.
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I dont get it. You say that Czechs have strong domestic league, and then I say that FEL is strong compared to that too. Then you post information that shows that FEL is strong than Ekstraliiga but you say what I just quoted?
 
Ed Wood said:
Finland has clearly surpassed the Czechs and are in a dogfight with the Russians to be considered the number four hockey power. In the 1981 Canada Cup (The second ever best on best tournament) Finland scored 6 goals and surrendered 31. They would have been ranked a distant number six at that point. They've come a long way and can now compete with and defeat any team in the world on a given night.
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The Czechs will be back sooner than later. Just decent management needed. Finding a goalie and improving the defence is not a big issue. Development programs are ongoing and the country breaths hockey.
 
VeteranNetPresence said:
i'm just wondering why so many fins would rather have sweden win over canada. i thought you guys hated each other?
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They're so handsome! I'm not even kidding, just look at them:

tumblr_m10sqfoq081qj8navo6_r1_500.gif


I feel strangely ok with him scoring the winning goal against us. :blush:
 
Dris said:
The Czechs will be back sooner than later. Just decent management needed. Finding a goalie and improving the defence is not a big issue. Development programs are ongoing and the country breaths hockey.
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Can someone tell that to Russia?
 
Kharkov said:
I dont get it.
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You obviously didn't see the bolded text - the part about how the KHL fits into all this. I showed you that 4 other leagues have higher attendance AND higher salaries than the FEL, including the KHL. That's two more ways of measuring the strength of hockey in a given nation. And that's on top of the other things already mentioned like number of players making the NHL, etc, btw.

Basically, unless you really want/need Finland to be considered clearly in the top 4 of all hockey countries it's really hard to put together a case for it that can survive interrogation. Well, today's silver makes it slightly easier.
 
I personnally dont give a lot of weight for these "team X is part of Big fat [insert number here]" things.

To me international results matter. And I enjoy watching Liiga, KHL and NHL. And Lions of course. :)

I dont see any reasons why any Finn should be ashamed of their Finland NT. And I dont see any reasons why anybody would look down Finlands NT results (the only reason I can imagine is those who think that these games are played on paper).
 
I'm quite happy that Finland got bronze, no offense to the USA
Its just they were just so happy to win it, the amount of joy even over something like 3rd place was amazing.
I believe Finland is a competitive team, and if that was the reaction for bronze I can't wait to see them go for gold.
 
jomas said:
I'm quite happy that Finland got bronze, no offense to the USA
Its just they were just so happy to win it, the amount of joy even over something like 3rd place was amazing.
I believe Finland is a competitive team, and if that was the reaction for bronze I can't wait to see them go for gold.
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I think that reasons why Finns are so happy with bronze are that:
-Well, there was plenty of injuries.. M. Koivu, Filppula, Rinne, Pitkänen, Barkov, S. Koivu, Bergenheim, and even Rask missed one game (semifinal against Sweden), etc... People didnt believe that this team could go so far with so many injuries
-This was last game in Finnish national team for many excellent Finnish player (Selänne, Timonen, Salo) so it is of course nice to see them won last game and have something to take home

To me this tourny was pretty nice after all (obviously I would wanted them to take gold, but bronze is fine then). You know, think those injured players and how important players they are to Finland. And still they give fine match against other teams and even knock out Russia from this tournament (and win bronze).
 
Ohashi_Jouzu said:
I showed you that 4 other leagues have higher attendance AND higher salaries than the FEL, including the KHL. That's two more ways of measuring the strength of hockey in a given nation. And that's on top of the other things already mentioned like number of players making the NHL, etc, btw.
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I'm speechless.

When it comes to seeing who is best at ice hockey, attendance rates and domestic league salaries are a deciding factor for you. Because if you went by actual results of hockey games and success, you would not have it the way you want to see it.

How about reading from tea leafs, or check what astrology has to say about the subject.

My mind is blown. Look, buddy....you can keep your opinion and your idiotic reasonings behind them. It is your right and you can personally think Finland is somewhere behind Botswana when it comes to hockey, because the star signs say so.
 
psycho_dad said:
I'm speechless.

When it comes to seeing who is best at ice hockey, attendance rates and domestic league salaries are a deciding factor for you. Because if you went by actual results of hockey games and success, you would not have it the way you want to see it.

How about reading from tea leafs, or check what astrology has to say about the subject.

My mind is blown. Look, buddy....you can keep your opinion and your idiotic reasonings behind them. It is your right and you can personally think Finland is somewhere behind Botswana when it comes to hockey, because the star signs say so.
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Don't worry buddy, we're gonna be a lot of better next season when we join the KHL (Jokerit) :D
 
Ohashi_Jouzu said:
And perhaps not even compared to other leagues that pay their players more, have higher average attendance, or both.

'12/13 Average Attendance Figures:

1. Switzerland - National League A - 6,620
2. Germany - Deutsche Eishockey Liga - 6,172
3. Russia - Kontinental Hockey League - 6,106
4. Sweden - Elitserien - 5,717
5. Finland - SM-liiga - 5,213
6. Czech Republic - Extraliga - 5,169

(2nd Division league rankings from same source: 1. Sweden, 2. Germany, 3. Switzerland, 4. Russia, 5. Finland, 6. Czech.
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that number for Finland is quite nice since few of the Arenas dont even have a capacity of 5000...
 
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