Kings Article: Figuring Forbort Out
- Thread starter Sheng Peng
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King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
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Very good article on Forbort. It demonstrates clearly his ability to keep the game simple, which a few years ago was hard to describe to people on this board. But all these little things add up, and after awhile, one becomes impressed.
Lots of stuff here to support Forbort's ability, but comparing him to late-years Scuderi and Regehr isn't the most flattering thing. And I don't feel Regehr is a good comparison at all.
Regehr was better than Forbort is right now when he was far younger, he played in the NHL as a 19 year old and was extremely solid by 22. And I completely disagree that he's going to be better offensively than Regehr. Forbort has been playing with one of the best defensemen in the league, getting great minutes, and has 3 assists in his last 35 games. The hot start he had was an anomaly. His tops for points in the AHL is 17 - just where he's at now. Regehr put up better numbers without the benefit Forbort has had, and I think many forget what a force Regehr was when he was Forbort's age. Scuderi is absolutely a great comparison, SAH guy with very limited offense.
Forbort is a solid 4-6 level guy on a good team, and there's nothing wrong with that. He's a smart player, but while he isn't near Scuderi's acumen yet that's definitely within reach. But let's be honest, at his skill level now he wouldn't have sniffed the roster from 10-11 through 13-14. If he's playing in the top 3 it means that your team isn't very good.
One thing he is not, is the best of Scuderi and Regehr with mobility, unless you are talking about the mid-30's versions which were shadows of their former selves.
Regehr was better than Forbort is right now when he was far younger, he played in the NHL as a 19 year old and was extremely solid by 22. And I completely disagree that he's going to be better offensively than Regehr. Forbort has been playing with one of the best defensemen in the league, getting great minutes, and has 3 assists in his last 35 games. The hot start he had was an anomaly. His tops for points in the AHL is 17 - just where he's at now. Regehr put up better numbers without the benefit Forbort has had, and I think many forget what a force Regehr was when he was Forbort's age. Scuderi is absolutely a great comparison, SAH guy with very limited offense.
Forbort is a solid 4-6 level guy on a good team, and there's nothing wrong with that. He's a smart player, but while he isn't near Scuderi's acumen yet that's definitely within reach. But let's be honest, at his skill level now he wouldn't have sniffed the roster from 10-11 through 13-14. If he's playing in the top 3 it means that your team isn't very good.
One thing he is not, is the best of Scuderi and Regehr with mobility, unless you are talking about the mid-30's versions which were shadows of their former selves.
Peter James Bond II
"Man, we were right there" - De-Luc-sional
- Mar 5, 2015
- 3,682
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Great article and supporting stats. I like the 'Figuring Out' title, but Forbort does not have to be figured out...players like Kopi,
however, need some 'figuring out'
I agree with Fishhead, in making any Regehr comparisons.
Regehr could annihilate opponents in a punishing fashion...and true,
was excellent by 22 years old. The Scuderi comparison may be better,
but Forbort does use his size and reach very effectively and Scuderi
was not a big defenseman.
In any case, Forbort is emerging as a legit 3-4 defenseman. Not all
3-4 defenseman are scoring 30 points these days. Willie Mithchell
didn't put up a lot of points and there's no way he could ever be considered
a 5-6 guy.
however, need some 'figuring out'
I agree with Fishhead, in making any Regehr comparisons.
Regehr could annihilate opponents in a punishing fashion...and true,
was excellent by 22 years old. The Scuderi comparison may be better,
but Forbort does use his size and reach very effectively and Scuderi
was not a big defenseman.
In any case, Forbort is emerging as a legit 3-4 defenseman. Not all
3-4 defenseman are scoring 30 points these days. Willie Mithchell
didn't put up a lot of points and there's no way he could ever be considered
a 5-6 guy.
damacles1156
Registered User
- Feb 5, 2010
- 21,668
- 1,318
Forbort is turning into a solid 3-4 SAH Defender.
Which is what he projected to be in the AHL.
One thing Forbort does posses over Scuds, Forbort is an excellent skater.
Which is what he projected to be in the AHL.
One thing Forbort does posses over Scuds, Forbort is an excellent skater.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Scuderi didn't reach Scuderi's level of acumen till he was 28. He was also barely sniffing the NHL at Forbort's age. I think Scuderi is an apt comparison. Regehr is an absolute monster physically and Forbort probably can't replicate that but he's damn sure trying, and as you say was an impact player in the NHL at a younger age. But I think Sheng is trying to draw comparisons between players Kings fans will be familiar with rather than make absolutes here.
I also think you're being unnecessarily hard on a guy whose first full NHL season was seeing top minutes and matchups by calling him a #4 at best.
Perhaps. I'm not trying to be hard on the guy, I thought he played better than expected and was one of the few bright spots of this season. But does anyone think his play will ever reach a level where he has a similar impact as Muzzin, Martinez, or Doughty? I just haven't seen that in him yet. On the strong Kings teams of a few years ago, Forbort would be battling to even get into the lineup. That's what I meant by he's a #4 at best on a good team.
Quite a collection there. If you are just looking at points maybe not. Defensively he's already way better than Muzzin and Martinez. Moreover, he gets no pp time which is where most D points will come from. Willie Mitchell is the best comparison by far at this point. His game is nothing like Scuderi's.
Forwards age like milk, defensemen like wine. D men don't really hit their prime till about 27. DF has plenty of upside yet to go.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
That would make him a #4 on arguably the best d-core of the last decade. That's pretty good. We've been spoiled by that.
Saying he won't have a similar impact as a Norris trophy winner and a top-level #2 who has made team Canada doesn't make him a slouch.
I know you're not trying to be hard on him and your evaluation isn't totally unfair, I'm just saying it's possible to be a good d-man without being the best 2nd pairing d-man in the league. Yes, I think he can impact a game like Martinez at least, but defensively rather than offensively.
Unfortunately, with Forbort like with every other d-man on the roster, we're trying to find the mix-chemistry that will work for a good 2nd pairing. Each one of the guys has the ability it seems but none of them look good TOGETHER. It's strange.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
Excellent skater? I've seen him get burned quite a few times with players using outside speed.
If there's anything excellent about his play, I think it's his ability to make breakout passes.
I completely disagree that DF is that good defensively. He is not very good at getting the puck up and out of the zone at all, he needs time and space or he struggles. It's one of the reasons he and Drew get hemmed in with regularity. He is certainly not head and shoulders above either Martinez or Muzzin. With a little time he certainly has a good first pass. I hope you're right about his upside, because guys who break in that late rarely show a lot of growth.
And he has a long way to go before he and Willie can be mentioned in the same breath. I see some similarities but Mitchell exerted a lot of control from the blue line regardless of who he was paired with, and above all he always made his partners better, whether it was Doughty, Voynov, or Martinez. I'd like to see Forbort do something away from one of the best D in the league before putting him on that level.
Well that's the thing. The Kings have had incredible defensive cores, but Forbort wouldn't be #4 on those. Martinez was a bottom pairing guy on those teams, Forbort would have been in the press box. I would put him at #4 now, but that's in front of Gravel, McNabb, and Ladue. Not close to the same. The spoiled part is absolutely accurate though, I'm sure all of our expectations aren't all that realistic just because of the ridiculous strength we've gotten used to on the blue lines. And to be honest, I'm probably more down on the guy than most because he took a loooong time to develop and was drafted far too early, which wasn't Forbort's fault.
That second part is what worries me the most about this defense. The only pairing that has shown any chemistry at all in the last two years has been McNabb/Doughty, and McNabb has been a train wreck since coming back. He's likely a goner at the end of the month. Muzzin and Martinez are the biggest problem. If they could actually play together, the team could find a solid vet to play with Drew and put Forbort with Gravel or LaDue and let them grow. Unfortunately, the M's are like matter and anti-matter, thank god they haven't collided on the ice, we would all die in a massive explosion.
What I am seeing a lot of currently is our defense reaching instead of putting the body on guys. Trying to go after pucks instead of locking up sticks. LaDue is perhaps the worst at this, but it happens to Forbort a lot too. It's not just the rookies, Doughty has been very guilty of the same thing. I think a lack of chemistry and comfort is a huge part of that.
Not sure what you've been watching but he's great down low and getting the puck out. Martinez and Muzzin are in JMFJ +/- minus for a reason, their turnovers this year have been absolutely brutal. That first Chicago goal tonight was all Amart, just let JT walk right out point blank. There's a reason Sutter has Forbort on the pp with DD. How about comparing a 25 year old Mitchell with DF instead of the mature cup winner?
Meh, I notice lots of struggles getting the puck out. He's just not good at it. Not sure what Muzzin/Martinez have to do with that.
At 25, Mitchell was in his 3rd NHL season and was a big part of a Minnesota defense that went to the WCF.... That team ended up a flash in the pan.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
A few people started saying that after Edmonton games. There's a guy there whose name I can't remember who has done it to everyone but it gets held against our youngster
A few people started saying that after Edmonton games. There's a guy there whose name I can't remember who has done it to everyone but it gets held against our youngster
The amazing part is he didn't get burned. McDavid was forced to just throw the puck at the net from bad angles. The fact that the other guys did nothing to cover the front had nothing to do with DF.
Not seeing the struggles. His coverage and outlet passing down low is >>>> Muzzin or Martinez, you can't even seriously argue this. He makes defensive plays that only DD can make.
When Mitchell just turned 25 (Forbort's age) he was a -16 in 2001-2002 with a lower ppg and the Wild finished 5th.
I understand a lot of posters are still invested in the Forbort's a bust routine but the dude is going to be really good. Lot of folks are just slow on the uptake.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
He got burned by himself? OK. If you think his skating is average I don't know what to tell you.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
Players skated around him with ease, so yeah, that's getting burned by himself. Maybe you can show me a demonstration of his amazing skating skills.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Er, from the linked article...
Catching Marleau from deep in the ozone:
Several more in there as well. Maybe you should check it out because Sheng did some legwork that shows examples to support his explanations of Forbort's strengths.
His speed, agility, and footwork are fantastic.
Where are the links of the players skating around him with ease? That aren't Connor McDavid?
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