FrankMTL
Registered User
- Jan 6, 2005
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I think a lot of us did.
A total of 1 assist against the USA and Sweden is not a great showing for a player of his skill level.
F Konsta Helenius (2024, 14th, BUF)
- Thread starter Erikfromfin
- Start date
I think a lot of us did.
A total of 1 assist against the USA and Sweden is not a great showing for a player of his skill level.
BerthMania
Registered User
I thought Helenius was good today against Sweeden, but not ''special good'' if that makes sense.
JabbaJabba
Registered User
Sweden and USA paid special attention to Helenius. Kinda hard for him to do much when the opponents knew that if they stop this guy they basically stop the whole team. Still he created chances for others and for himself, just got no support. I hope he gets a chance to play at World Championships still, there he won't be alone.
FinPanda
Team Finland 2022 WHC champions
It was pretty much a one guy team and good teams know how to stop it. Finland didn't have much going outside of him.
Not a Helenius fan, but U18 performance is one of the worst predictors ever.
FrankMTL
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LeProspector
AINEC
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There’s better players with more development runway in this draft. Like I said before, I wouldn’t touch him before pick 11.
Don’t get sucked in by Stats.
Don’t get sucked in by Stats.
Kaako Kappo
Kaako Kappo
Agreed
US and Team Canada are always so stacked they just run over other teams in these and the players end up with gazillion points. Try having one or two first round picks if you're lucky, a few later round picks and mostly a bunch of kids who'll never get drafted. It's a whole lot easier to look good when your team is stacked.
I think Helenius played about as well as expected. The team needed him to drag them to quarterfinals - he couldn't do it alone, no shame in that. He showed his craftiness, speed, zone-entries, forechecking, backchecking and plays mature game; all the stuff you know he excells at. He also showed that his shot or his willingess to use it aren't all there yet.
Remember that his ceiling has been projected be a second line center in the NHL, not a first pick #1 center.
Pavel Buchnevich
Pavel Buchnevich "The Fake"
Look how more points someone like Hagens has than his teammates. Same with McKenna and Martone for Canada. Not like there’s 10 guys on each team with 5 or more points.
It’s not a good look for any players that hope to be top 10 picks this year when Hagens, McKenna, and Martone are running up the score on them. Those guys are terrific players for future drafts, but they shouldn’t be outscored by younger players by such a margin.
Kaako Kappo
Kaako Kappo
Okay. Now swap McKenna or Hagens to team Finland and Konsta Helenius US/Can and see what happens. Hey man, maybe they'll perform the same, but I would not bet my money on it.
Team USA has seven players with 7 points or more. Team Finland had two, who were the top scorers for that team. Kind of a dishonest way to frame things.
Also are Hagens and McKenna not expected to be the absolute cream of the crop in their drafts? Helenius is projected around picks 10-15. I do agree that they are having incredible tournaments, but they're also supposed to have elite ceilings.
If you really want to stare at the statsheet, then you can go check out how much Finnish NHL players have scored in their respective U18 tournaments. You'll find that the numbers are not very high. We don't tend to have 11-0 games against teams.
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WeThreeKings
Habs cup - its in the BAG
Yeah but it's always.. OK he produces in the Finnish League but none of it really looks special or something that predicts he will be a high point producer in the NHL.
So you say, OK, let's see how he does against the U20 group and his skill doesn't flash any higher there, it's still the same struggle to find what makes him top 10 good.
So then you go to the u18s and it's like, ok, here is playing against only draft eligible and younger, let's see that skill shine.. and he only produces on the PP against weak teams, gets handed his lunch by Teddy Stiga against the USA and lays an egg against Sweden in an elimination game.
At this point you can say yes he's smart and he's responsible, maybe he can play the middle in the NHL and there's versatility to go on the wing.
High end shot? No, it's good but not great.
High end playmaking? It's better than his scoring ability but it's not eye popping.
You can pick him and be comfortable that he's a NHLer and likely is a 2nd liner. It's just when in the draft is that certainty better than the upside play.
Banking on Helenius to be so smart he's Sebastien Aho in the NHL is a rare proposition. If you're right it pays off, if not, then you're probably holding the bag wishing you went elsewhere.
Kaako Kappo
Kaako Kappo
What? It does look special. He's 17 and reads the game better and faster than the people around him. He skates better than most. He was the best player on his Liiga team in the playoffs.
Again, no one's projecting him to be a 1C in the NHL. That's the context.
Reading this stuff is hilarious, It feels like a bunch of people who've probably barely watched him (Based on the fact that you are not Finnish and watching the games from outside Finland is not easy or fun) trying to convince themselves that there's no elite player here, which no one even claims there is, he's just some dude who'll get picked somewhere in the first round.
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I'm on board with most of what you are saying, but what people are debating is whether Helenius fits into the forward tier just after Celebrini, or at least, the tier after Celebrini and Demidov. Does he belong in the group with Catton, Eiserman(who is even more controversial)and Lindstrom, which would make him a top 10-12 pick? I would say that the answer is yes. No one is calling him a mere "first rounder", and in the same tier as Parascak.
It's no shame to be one of the top 5-7 forwards in this draft. That's usually enough to guarantee a top 10 pick, but this is a very unusual draft with at least 6, and maybe 7 Dmen who are top 12-13 worthy, which pushes down where he might be picked.
Helenius, like any prospect, might bust, but he is far from the most risky pick early in this draft. Lindstrom's and Jiricek's injuries, the one way nature of Parekh's and Eiserman's game, Yakemchuk's mental game are all more concerning.
Helenius appears to be less of a boom/bust candidate than the above, but might have a lower ceiling.
seems like he’d be a very good fit being Michkov’s centre in PHI.
I do think he has the potential to be a 1st line centre but more realistically think he ends up being a good top 6 centre in the NHL. At pick 12/13 you take that all day.
Hope he lasts that long!
I do think he has the potential to be a 1st line centre but more realistically think he ends up being a good top 6 centre in the NHL. At pick 12/13 you take that all day.
Hope he lasts that long!
Pavel Buchnevich
Pavel Buchnevich "The Fake"
Does age not matter to you in this equation? Helenius, along with Eiserman, Iginla, and Connelly are the top 10-15 picks playing in this tournament for 2024. They should all be under a big microscope.
You can say McKenna or Hagens or Martone are super talents, but I’ve actually seen pretty much all of these 2024 players suggested as top 5 picks recently. It’s not even a lock where these 2025 and 2026 players will be picked.
McKenna isn’t even draft eligible next year. It’s the year after. That’s a huge disadvantage. We’re talking about Helenius playing at the Men’s World Championship this year compared to a 16 year old. Probably the only player at this tournament you could say that about at this tournament and there needs to be a teammate excuse for why he can’t outperform a 16 year old 2026 draft eligible?
That’s not to say this tournament is all that matters. Helenius had a good season, but he had an underwhelming U18’s. He should’ve drove the bus more.
Pavel Buchnevich
Pavel Buchnevich "The Fake"
I also want to mention that Hagens isn’t playing with top picks and the argument that the USNTDP is an all star team doesn’t work this year. I mean, Teddy Stiga is decent. But he was regarded as like the worst player in his NTDP age group or close to it last year and then this year playing a lot with Hagens he’s had a big season. He probably won’t be earlier than a second round pick. Brodie Ziemer is a grinder who will be lucky to even be picked second round. You’ll find some that say he belongs in the fourth round or later. He’s lucky to be like the only grinding winger who can play top 9 at the NTDP. If he wasn’t, there’s little chance he’d be playing so high up in the lineup. Are you telling me these guys are getting drafted higher than Hemming and Saarelainen? I’m not at all convinced. Hagens literally has 9 more points than his linemates through 5 games. His team scored 4 yesterday and he scored or primary assisted 3 of them, and then a guy on the third line scored an unassisted broken play goal. Thats it. This isn’t an All Star team at all. He’s driving the bus. Without him, they could’ve easily lost to Switzerland of all teams (missing their best player) yesterday.
Ya, it's not everything, but it's a thing. A good showing with the Men's team will ease the worries of GM looking to pick him.
Everything matters.
Kaako Kappo
Kaako Kappo
SannywithoutCompy
they do it for free
- Dec 22, 2020
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Something you have to keep in mind is he's recently been thrown into the discussion with guys like Catton, Lindstrom, Iginla, and (recently) Sennecke as far as guys in the mix in the mid to low top 10. I think people were expecting him to demonstrate that he belongs in that group, but he didn't have a particularly convincing showing.
In that range you are hoping to bet on upside for a top line player, and I just haven't seen anything out of Helenius at any level to suggest he'd be worth taking a swing at in that range. He'd be a great pick for a bubble team looking to add a solid versatile 2nd liner though (Buffalo or NJ for example).
WTK and I (and many others since we're pretty overrepresented on the site) are coming from the Habs board where Goldenhands (who, to his credit, called the last couple top 5 picks for us) has been hyping him up as being in, or ahead of most in that group, and I think we were hoping to see something we hadn't seen in Liiga to show he belongs there.
He's obviously a very smart player and has good (not great) tools, but I just don't see anything suggesting Aho/Suzuki kind of upside.
You do realize that Aho and Suzuki weren't thought to have #1 center upside when they were picked, right? That's why Aho went 2nd round and Suzuki went outside of the top 10.
What allowed those two players to not only stick at center, despite their size, but also thrive as legit #1 centers is their tremendous hockey IQ.
Turns out players that make the right play almost every time they have the puck tend to thrive in the NHL where you need to chain together multiple good smart plays with the puck to develop a scoring chance.
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I agree with you that we should be careful about putting the ceiling too low on smart players like Helenius. We've (collectively) gotten this wrong many times in the past.
But it's just hard to tell upside one way or the other with a player like him. It's much easier if you have to just diagnose the physical tools.
The thing I go back to is that physical tools are the easiest attributes to improve. There's a laundry list of players that had skating issues and a weak shot and then improved those skills substantially as they get older and gained strength.
Much more difficult to improve how quick your decision-making is and how fast you process the game, if it can be improved at all. Certainly experience can mask it but it's usually something you have or you don't.
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