F Alexis Lafreniere - Rimouski Oceanic, QMJHL (2020 Draft) Part 2

[SergeConstantin74]

Since the beginning of the three leagues tournament, the WHL has won 19 Cups, the OHL 17 and the QMJHL 11.

However, in the lat 20 years, the Q has 9, the OHL 8 and the WHL 3.

As for the finalists, the Q has 7, WHL 7 and OHL 6.

Bottom line is, when CHL teams face each other, QMJHL doesn't suck.

 

[Phenomenon13]

The Q has improved immensely from it's days as being known mainly as a enforcer/thug league. Although, the Q relative to the other leagues from my perspective does have harder time translating it's talented prospects to the NHL level. However, I think the influx of high end picks from the QMJHL the last couple years in Mackinnon, Drouin, Ehlers, Meier, Hischier, Dubois, etc... have translated very well should put the discussion about the QMJHL not being able to properly develop talent to rest. Lafreniere playing in the QMJHL should not hinder his development.

 

[93LEAFS]

I don’t think it means their league is any weaker, you see a lot of these kids produce and they’d produce regardless of what league they were in. I think what it really shows (and we already know) is that they have such a small talent pool to pick from that they literally have no choice but to pick up players from other leagues.

Quebec and all the Maritime provinces combined still has roughly 4 million less people then the OHL, and roughly 1 million less than the WHL (not including territories).

While this doesn’t include the American players at their disposal where the Q is practically non-existent. The WHL has had 40 Americans suit up for them this season and the OHL 52, so that just pushes more local players out of spots and too other leagues if they want to keep playing. If the Q had any ability of getting American players to come, which will never happen due to the territory they got, Hockey East has that in a stranglehold, then you’d see way less players from other leagues coming to the Q, I think.

You combine all those factors with the fact that more and more Maritime and Quebec kids it seems are willing to throw their hat into the QMJHL ring and all of a sudden, they’re in even more of a bind because losing a kid to the NCAA in the Q has a bigger impact then losing one if you’re in the OHL/WHL due to the lack of players available to replace them with.

So to answer your question, the reason it doesn’t happen in reverse is 1) they have a smaller population of players to pick from right off the bat, 2) there’s no American presence pushing CHL caliber players out of their respective leagues, 3) the Q is impacted more when a kid goes to the NCAA as they don’t have the numbers to supplement them like other leagues.

It isn’t an issue of the Q being weaker then all the other leagues, they’re producing just as much talent as them, they can play right with them, it really comes down to the fact they have a significantly smaller number of players to pick from and no Americans to supplement their league. If the Q could get the same drawing power as the OHL/WHL and simply had more people to pick from then they wouldn’t have as many out of region players on their roster. In fact, if things were comparable between the 3 leagues then you’d probably see more guys from the Q fall through the cracks and end up infiltrating other leagues but because of all the factors I’ve mentioned, that’s not currently in the cards for the Q.

Don’t however, make the mistake of thinking that the Q has to take players from other leagues because they’re weaker, they have to take players from other leagues due to factors that are really out of their control.

Except they aren't. Just look at the draft. Also, the OHL is the only league that consistently pulls in top Americans.

2018 NHL Draft
WHL: 20 players picked (2 first rounders)
OHL: 35 players picked (7 first rounders)
QMJHL: 23 players picked (4 first rounders)

2017 NHL Draft
WHL: 32 players picked (7 first rounders)
OHL: 42 players picked (5 first rounders)
QMJHL: 14 players picked (2 first rounders)

2016 NHL Draft
WHL: 34 players picked (4 first rounders)
OHL: 48 players picked (9 first rounders)
QMJHL: 14 players picked (2 first rounders)

2015 NHL Draft
WHL: 34 players picked (5 first rounders)
OHL: 31 players picked (7 first rounders)
QMJHL: 30 players picked (5 first rounders)

2014 NHL Draft
WHL: 37 players picked (9 first rounders)
OHL: 41 Players picked (10 first rounders)
QMJHL: 17 players picked (1 first rounders)

2013 NHL Draft
WHL: 33 players picked (8 first rounders)
OHL: 37 players picked (8 first rounders)
QMJHL: 31 players picked (6 first rounders)

I was just going to do the last 5, but didn't want to ignore 2013 which was the best year for the QMJHl in recent years. But, if you look at the disparity between the leagues, when the Q is having a good year, it is close to the other 2 leagues, but it has down peaks dramatically lower than the other 2 leagues (having only 28 players drafted in a 2 year span).

This isn't to say Lafreniere can't be challenged or developed in the Q, or that it is a terrible league. Just that it is of a lower standard top to bottom than the other 2 CHL leagues. I mean, you can blame it on non-regional recruits like Seth Jones. But, the QMJHL has heavily benefitted from imports too. I doubt if you removed Americans and imports from the pools it would dramatically change results. I mean, you take away imports from 2017, the QMJHL had only 10 players picked (Hischier, Chekovich, Koltygin, Gwanke). Some years will just be slightly more noticable than the rest (such as 2016 for the OHL with Juolevi, Tkachuk, Sergachev and Brown taken in the top 15)

 

[TimeZone]

The NCAA is tougher because of the age difference. Something that doesn't apply across CHL leagues. It's pretty irrelevant because it is 4 of a possible 60 CHL teams. It's a great event but isn't representative of overall league strength. We could go through the pre-season games for example, where Moncton lost to 3 OHL teams or Ottawa record vs Gatineau (It's been pretty even over the past two years).

The amount of players who graduate out of a league due to being NHL ready is hardly relevant. 95% or more of the drafted talent sticks around until they graduate out of the CHL at 20 (with a couple staying in the 3 overage spots). We are talking about a very small amount of players. For example, the OHL is just missing Svechnikov, and Robert Thomas, the QMJHL is missing Hischier (A couple others are in the AHL due to import loopholes like Sandin and Zadina). Just look at the raw amount of players drafted within the same age pool.

Using Pre-Season as an analogy for the Memorial Cup is a tad weak, don't you think? I'm sure I don't need to explain why these games aren't equal. Shall we compare the New England Patriots First four games of the regular Season to their final four Playoff games while we're at it? Single game elimination isn't a new concept, I'm sure you're old enough to have experienced the NHL in the Olympics. The vast majority of players Drafted from the CHL, never even crack an NHL line-up, let alone stick. Of course the majority of that top end talent will crack the NHL sooner than not. Your initial point was that the QMJHL is weak, but why? They select players from other areas? Okay. That's a population issue, and there have been quite a few of those individuals who have proven more than their worth since being selected.

You continue to dismiss the Memorial Cup, which is genuinly the only time we have to compare the best teams of each league compete head to head for a Championship. It's a tad silly to just brush it aside and dismiss it to fit your narrative. That argument holds more weight than anything you're capable of bringing to the table. It cannot be dismissed, no matter how hard you try.

 

[TimeZone]

Since the beginning of the three leagues tournament, the WHL has won 19 Cups, the OHL 17 and the QMJHL 11.

However, in the lat 20 years, the Q has 9, the OHL 8 and the WHL 3.

As for the finalists, the Q has 7, WHL 7 and OHL 6.

Bottom line is, when CHL teams face each other, QMJHL doesn't suck.

Yeah, but Draft picks.

 

[93LEAFS]

Using Pre-Season as an analogy for the Memorial Cup is a tad weak, don't you think? I'm sure I don't need to explain why these games aren't equal. Shall we compare the New England Patriots First four games of the regular Season to their final four Playoff games while we're at it? Single game elimination isn't a new concept, I'm sure you're old enough to have experienced the NHL in the Olympics. The vast majority of players Drafted from the CHL, never even crack an NHL line-up, let alone stick. Of course the majority of that top end talent will crack the NHL sooner than not. Your initial point was that the QMJHL is weak, but why? They select players from other areas? Okay. That's a population issue, and there have been quite a few of those individuals who have proven more than their worth since being selected.

You continue to dismiss the Memorial Cup, which is genuinly the only time we have to compare the best teams of each league compete head to head for a Championship. It's a tad silly to just brush it aside and dismiss it to fit your narrative. That argument holds more weight than anything you're capable of bringing to the table, it cannot be dismissed, no matter how hard you try.

It's weaker because it produces less professional level talent and it's scoring is less transferable. I've pointed to the fact they try to get talent from other regions (primarily Ontario).

The memorial cup is a one-off event size. You can't really pull much from it. Yes, I know sporting championships are solved through single elimination tournaments (NFL Playoffs, March Madness, Olympic Hockey etc).

My initial point was the QMJHL is weaker than the OHL and WHL when it comes to overall talent throughout the entire league. Just look at NHL drafts or how scoring from each league has historically carried over.

 

[Tutu to]

The Q produces more offensive talent then the W over the last 10 years.

 

[TimeZone]

It's weaker because it produces less professional level talent and it's scoring is less transferable. I've pointed to the fact they try to get talent from other regions (primarily Ontario).

The memorial cup is a one-off event size. You can't really pull much from it. Yes, I know sporting championships are solved through single elimination tournaments (NFL Playoffs, March Madness, Olympic Hockey etc).

My initial point was the QMJHL is weaker than the OHL and WHL when it comes to overall talent throughout the entire league. Just look at NHL drafts or how scoring from each league has historically carried over.

This isn't indicative of how difficult the league is to currently play in, at all though. They've gotten plenty of talent from Ontario, some Claude Giroux guy you may have heard of was one of them. Junior and the NHL are completely different (obviously) but having more Draft picks from the OHL or WHL, doesn't necessarily mean they're currently better, more difficult teams to play against at the Junior level. I'm not going to bring up the population, nor the memorial cup thing again as it's gotten quite tiring.

This little debate has gotten pretty circular at this point between the both of us.

 

[93LEAFS]

This isn't indicative of how difficult the league is to currently play in, at all though. They've gotten plenty of talent from Ontario, some Claude Giroux guy you may have heard of was one of them. Junior and the NHL are completely different (obviously) but having more Draft picks from the OHL or WHL, doesn't necessarily mean they're got better, more difficult teams to play against at the Junior level. I'm not going to bring up the population, nor the memorial cup thing again as it's gotten quite tiring.

This little debate has gotten pretty circular at this point between the both of us.

That is the best independent measure of talent in the league. Not 4 to 5 games. You would think NHL teams would draft the better players. Almost all of these players stay until they graduate.

I'm not saying the Q is a joke or anything. Just that the overall talent level of the league is below the OHL and the WHL to a lesser extent. It doesn't make it a terrible league or somewhere that top players should leave. It just means there is a higher level of talent top to bottom in the other 2 leagues. I mean, the OHL has won 3 of the last 5 memorial cups, but I don't think the fact Windsor pulled off a crazy upset is really representative of why it is a better league. The Knights were one flukey shot going in away from losing to Rouyn-Noranda. The margins in that tournament are too small to seriously use it to be representative of a leagues strength top to bottom.

 

[TimeZone]

That is the best independent measure of talent in the league. Not 4 to 5 games. You would think NHL teams would draft the better players. Almost all of these players stay until they graduate.

I'm not saying the Q is a joke or anything. Just that the overall talent level of the league is below the OHL and the WHL to a lesser extent. It doesn't make it a terrible league or somewhere that top players should leave. It just means there is a higher level of talent top to bottom in the other 2 leagues. I mean, the OHL has won 3 of the last 5 memorial cups, but I don't think the fact Windsor pulled off a crazy upset is really representative of why it is a better league. The Knights were one flukey shot going in away from losing to Rouyn-Noranda. The margins in that tournament are too small to seriously use it to be representative of a leagues strength top to bottom.

I would disagree, the memorial cup is the most indicative competition between the trio. You're right, almost all of these players do stay until they graduate, and then they move on to something entirely separate from professional sports.

One year may be a fluke, but what happens when we use a 5 year time period, an 8 year time period, a 10 year time period...a 20 year time period? How many "flukes" can there really be? The Q has held there own as well as any other league lately, the dream of any young JR player is to win the Memorial cup, lets face it. The Q has done it as much, or more than anyone lately.

 

[93LEAFS]

I would disagree, the memorial cup is the most indicative competition between the trio. You're right, almost all of these players do stay until they graduate, and then they move on to something entirely separate from professional sports.

One year may be a fluke, but what happens when we use a 5 year time period, an 8 year time period, a 10 year time period...a 20 year time period? How many "flukes" can there really be? The Q has held there own as well as any other league lately, the dream of any young JR player is to win the Memorial cup, lets face it. The Q has done it as much, or more than anyone lately.

You don't think how many players get drafted out of a league is representative of its talent level? Or the fact that the Q, constantly has Ontario born players? I completely disagree and think that it is much more representative of the talent level of the league than the Memorial Cup. The Q has won one Memorial Cup in the last 5 years. I don't think that is massive bragging rights for recent history.

I'd say Memorial Cup while important generally isn't that high on CHL players dreams list. I would think it falls behind getting drafted, making the NHL or making Team Canada WJC.

 

[Dodospice]

I would disagree, the memorial cup is the most indicative competition between the trio. You're right, almost all of these players do stay until they graduate, and then they move on to something entirely separate from professional sports.

One year may be a fluke, but what happens when we use a 5 year time period, an 8 year time period, a 10 year time period...a 20 year time period? How many "flukes" can there really be? The Q has held there own as well as any other league lately, the dream of any young JR player is to win the Memorial cup, lets face it. The Q has done it as much, or more than anyone lately.

I completely disagree with the idea that the Memorial Cup is the most indicative way to measure how good each league compares to one another. Each top team is going to be a top team, no matter what league they play in. It isn’t the top of the league that sets one apart from another, they’re all on the same level there, what sets the leagues apart is the mid-bottom of the league. That’s where quality of depth and competition is more of a factor, then it is at the top because every leagues top teams are going to be top teams.

Winning a single elimination tournament doesn’t make them any better than any other league, there’s plenty of examples where the clear best team in that tournament doesn’t win but that doesn’t mean they’re not the better team. Like I’ve said, the top teams are going to be top teams no matter what league they’re in, it’s the middle-bottom of the pack that’s going to set the level of competition and overall skill of the league apart from one another.

 

[TimeZone]

I completely disagree with the idea that the Memorial Cup is the most indicative way to measure how good each league compares to one another. Each top team is going to be a top team, no matter what league they play in. It isn’t the top of the league that sets one apart from another, they’re all on the same level there, what sets the leagues apart is the mid-bottom of the league. That’s where quality of depth and competition is more of a factor, then it is at the top because every leagues top teams are going to be top teams.

Winning a single elimination tournament doesn’t make them any better than any other league, there’s plenty of examples where the clear best team in that tournament doesn’t win but that doesn’t mean they’re not the better team. Like I’ve said, the top teams are going to be top teams no matter what league they’re in, it’s the middle-bottom of the pack that’s going to set the level of competition and overall skill of the league apart from one another.

So, shall we have some sort of relegation round to prove which team bolsters the weakest? Winning those best on best games is absolutely an indicator of who has the best team, otherwise what would be the point? It's their Stanley Cup/Olympics Let's also not pretend as if you're walked to the Memorial Cup. You have several elimination games against the top teams from each league to determine who makes it to the game.

C'mon man. Which is a better comparison between the trio competing head to head?

 

[TimeZone]

You don't think how many players get drafted out of a league is representative of its talent level? Or the fact that the Q, constantly has Ontario born players? I completely disagree and think that it is much more representative of the talent level of the league than the Memorial Cup. The Q has won one Memorial Cup in the last 5 years. I don't think that is massive bragging rights for recent history.

I'd say Memorial Cup while important generally isn't that high on CHL players dreams list. I would think it falls behind getting drafted, making the NHL or making Team Canada WJC.

No, not really. We're discussing the entire league, not a select few.

A little bit outdated, but some information none the less :

Early 2013, Jim Parcels, a former Peterborough Petes trainer and Ken Campbell, a writer for The Hockey News, co-authored Selling the Dream: How Hockey Parents and Their Kids Are Paying the Price for Our National Obsession. In the book, Parcels breaks down the odds of a kid from Ontario making the NHL. Out of the select 30,000 players they studied, 48 were drafted by an NHL team, and 39 of those 48 actually signed contracts with an NHL team. Of that 39, only 32 actually played in the NHL, and only 15 of those players played more than one full season. And finally, of that 15, only six played the minimum 400 games to qualify for the NHL Player Pension.

What do you think the percentage is of the average CHL kid in general making the NHL?

 

[93LEAFS]

So, shall we have some sort of relegation round to prove which team bolsters the weakest? Winning those best on best games is absolutely an indicator of who has the best team, otherwise what would be the point? It's their Stanley Cup/Olympics Let's also not pretend as if you're walked to the Memorial Cup. You have several elimination games against the top teams from each league to determine who makes it to the game.

C'mon man. Which is a better comparison between the trio competing head to head?

Except the best team is different than the league with the most talent (or deepest league). It is not measuring what you claim it should.

La Liga constantly wins Champions League (It has two of the best teams in the world). That doesn't mean it has a deeper talent pool than the English Premier League.

 

[93LEAFS]

No, not really. We're discussing the entire league, not a select few.

A little bit outdated, but some information none the less :

Early 2013, Jim Parcels, a former Peterborough Petes trainer and Ken Campbell, a writer for The Hockey News, co-authored Selling the Dream: How Hockey Parents and Their Kids Are Paying the Price for Our National Obsession. In the book, Parcels breaks down the odds of a kid from Ontario making the NHL. Out of the select 30,000 players they studied, 48 were drafted by an NHL team, and 39 of those 48 actually signed contracts with an NHL team. Of that 39, only 32 actually played in the NHL, and only 15 of those players played more than one full season. And finally, of that 15, only six played the minimum 400 games to qualify for the NHL Player Pension.

What do you think the percentage is of the average CHL kid in general making the NHL?

Tiny. But about 35 or so a year are drafted out of about 500 full time players in the OHL. Split that into about 4 co-horts, 20% to 25% of OHL players are drafted. From there, maybe 10 a year make it.

I think the amount of players drafted, and the fact players who don't make the OHL out of Ontario constantly go to the QMJHL, shows it has a lower talent level. I'd say that is much more representative than Memorial Cups. Even then, Ontario has won 3 of the last 5 Memorial Cups, which seems to be the measure you prefer? Or does the last 8 years matter more?

 

[TimeZone]

Tiny. But about 35 or so a year are drafted out of about 500 full time players in the league. Split that into about 4 co-horts, 20% to 25% of OHL players are drafted. From there, maybe 10 a year make it.

I think the amount of players drafted, and the fact players who don't make the OHL out of Ontario constantly go to the QMJHL, shows it has a lower talent level. I'd say that is much more representative than Memorial Cups.

How many of those players genuinely stick around until they're 20-21 and move on to NHL success? Nobody is saying the Q is the premier CHL league, what I'm saying is when the top teams in the world face off, the Q continue to hold their own on a decade long basis, it cannot be ignored.

You're using an extremely small % of the league to examplify why the Q is inferior, yet dismissing a larger % due to single game elimination, which again isn't a new concept. And whether you realize it or not, yes, the initial post I quoted was literally saying the QMJHL was trash.

The autocorrect on this phone is terrible btw, I'm struggling I apologize lol

 

[93LEAFS]

How many of those players genuinely stick around until they're 20-21 and move on to NHL success? Nobody is saying the Q is the premier CHL league, what I'm saying is when the top teams in th Q continue to hold their own on a decade long basis it cannot be ignored.

They've won one Memorial Cup in the last 5 years. There top teams hold on, but top to bottom it is the weakest league in the CHL on a pure talent basis. It's reflected through the draft, how many players move on to any level of professional hockey and how scoring from the QMJHL tends to transfer to the NHL.

I'm not saying it is a terrible league. But, the overall talent from top to bottom is weaker than the other 2 CHL leagues, particularly compared to the OHL. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring its still a good league, it is just weaker than the other 2 when you look at the overall talent in the league. The Memorial Cup is just way too small an event to extrapolate overall league quality from. It is just representative of 4 CHL teams out of a possible 60, with each league guaranteed a spot. At least looking at drafted players accounts for the entire league, and is some measure of the talent levels. These are the players NHL teams decided were worthy to allocate resources on. The other leagues consistently produce more players who are worthy of these developmental spots. When the QMJHL had the least players drafted out of the leagues, I'd say that is telling.

Lafreniere can't control what league he's in, and he won't be harmed by playing in the QMJHL next year (and going to Europe is a myth for a Canadian CHL player).

 

[TimeZone]

They've won one Memorial Cup in the last 5 years. There top teams hold on, but top to bottom it is the weakest league in the CHL on a pure talent basis. It's reflected through the draft, how many players move on to any level of professional hockey and how scoring from the QMJHL tends to transfer to the NHL.

I'm not saying it is a terrible league. But, the overall talent from top to bottom is weaker than the other 2 CHL leagues, particularly compared to the OHL. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring its still a good league, it is just weaker than the other 2 when you look at the overall talent in the league. The Memorial Cup is just way too small an event to extrapolate overall league quality from. It is just representative of 4 CHL teams out of a possible 60, with each league guaranteed a spot. At least looking at drafted players accounts for the entire league, and is some measure of the talent levels. These are the players NHL teams decided were worthy to allocate resources on. The other leagues consistently produce more players who are worthy of these developmental spots. When the QMJHL had the least players drafted out of the leagues, I'd say that is telling.



Lafreniere can't control what league he's in, and he won't be harmed by playing in the QMJHL next year (and going to Europe is a myth for a Canadian CHL player).

The

They've won one Memorial Cup in the last 5 years. There top teams hold on, but top to bottom it is the weakest league in the CHL on a pure talent basis. It's reflected through the draft, how many players move on to any level of professional hockey and how scoring from the QMJHL tends to transfer to the NHL.

I'm not saying it is a terrible league. But, the overall talent from top to bottom is weaker than the other 2 CHL leagues, particularly compared to the OHL. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring its still a good league, it is just weaker than the other 2 when you look at the overall talent in the league. The Memorial Cup is just way too small an event to extrapolate overall league quality from. It is just representative of 4 CHL teams out of a possible 60, with each league guaranteed a spot. At least looking at drafted players accounts for the entire league, and is some measure of the talent levels. These are the players NHL teams decided were worthy to allocate resources on. The other leagues consistently produce more players who are worthy of these developmental spots. When the QMJHL had the least players drafted out of the leagues, I'd say that is telling.

Lafreniere can't control what league he's in, and he won't be harmed by playing in the QMJHL next year (and going to Europe is a myth for a Canadian CHL player).

You can't call me out for cherry picking years and proceed to do the exact same thing. Your cut off point is literally at a time period where the Q won three consecutive Memorial cups in a row a coincidence again, I'm sure.

The Q is also built overage heavy with their top teams, for instance check out the memorial cup champions from last year. They're currently the worst team in the entire CHL, especially aftering flipping Dobson.

The Q may not be as strong near the bottom, but they've got 5 teams with 75+ points right now at the top. That's more than the WHL, and certainly the OHL(one) have to say for themselves. The W looks like the weak link to me lately, at least as far as producing quality, top end forwards. Not that's even my argument, but eh.

 

[93LEAFS]

The


You can't call me out for cherry picking years and proceed to do the exact same thing. Your cut off point is literally at a time period where the Q won three consecutive Memorial cups in a row a coincidence again, I'm sure.

The Q is also built overage heavy with their top teams, for instance check out the memorial cup champions from last year. They're currently the worst team in the entire CHL, especially aftering flipping Dobson.

The Q may not be as strong near the bottom, but they've got 5 teams with 75+ points right now at the top. That's more than the WHL, and certainly the OHL(one) have to say for themselves.

Most teams that go to the Memorial cup are built in the same fashion. Hamilton acquired players they knew wouldn't return (Thomas most notably). That's just how the CHL operates. It's rare for teams to stay continually dominate unless we are talking about London.

I don't think point totals in the league really matter, because I could say the opposite that the fact the QMJHL has the most teams under 50 is indicative of its lack of quality (although, I don't believe point totals are reflective of anything, someone has to earn points).

It isn't a coincidence. But, you point to recent history. What is a reasonable timeline for judging prior Memorial Cups? I just don't think they are a good measuring tool for measuring the league top to bottom. The talent level is higher elsewhere, which is why they produce more NHL draft picks. Even when you account for the slight disparity in total players (The Q has the least teams with 18, OHL has 20, and the WHL has 22). I just don't think a tournament in the format the Memorial Cup shows which league has the deepest talent pool, just like I wouldn't use Champions League soccer to determine which league in Europe is the deepest.

 

[TimeZone]

Most teams that go to the Memorial cup are built in the same fashion. Hamilton acquired players they knew wouldn't return (Thomas most notably). That's just how the CHL operates. It's rare for teams to stay continually dominate unless we are talking about London.

I don't think point totals in the league really matter, because I could say the opposite that the fact the QMJHL has the most teams under 50 is indicative of its lack of quality (although, I don't believe point totals are reflective of anything, someone has to earn points).

It isn't a coincidence. But, you point to recent history. What is a reasonable timeline for judging prior Memorial Cups? I just don't think they are a good measuring tool for measuring the league top to bottom. The talent level is higher elsewhere, which is why they produce more NHL draft picks. Even when you account for the slight disparity in total players (The Q has the least teams with 18, OHL has 20, and the WHL has 22). I just don't think a tournament in the format the Memorial Cup shows which league has the deepest talent pool, just like I wouldn't use Champions League soccer to determine which league in Europe is the deepest.

I pointes recent history as before then we were looking at a league that had literally won the Memorial Cup a measly 2 times from 1983-1999. Hence my initial argument that the Q has become significantly better over the years.

PS : I'm not so sure Thomas shouldn't still be in the OHL, FWIW.

 

[alko]

Also:

After careful consideration and analysis of the situation, the decision was unanimous to continue his junior internship in the organization of the Rimouski Océanic in the 2019-20 season," he told TVA Sports, confirming that they were indeed in contact with several teams from Europe.

So, what is best for such phenom?

A) Play in juniors, tear the league in points and be somehow at home. But you are under big pressure, everybody is watching you all day.

B) Play in Europe, again much more skilled players, earn a big money, but you are far from home (what actually many Europe kids doing). Much bigger anonymity.

 

[Gold Standard]

Also:

After careful consideration and analysis of the situation, the decision was unanimous to continue his junior internship in the organization of the Rimouski Océanic in the 2019-20 season," he told TVA Sports, confirming that they were indeed in contact with several teams from Europe.

So, what is best for such phenom?

A) Play in juniors, tear the league in points and be somehow at home. But you are under big pressure, everybody is watching you all day.

B) Play in Europe, again much more skilled players, earn a big money, but you are far from home (what actually many Europe kids doing). Much bigger anonymity.

He's not such a phenom. if he were he would have performed a little better against 19 year olds at the World Juniors. I'm not giving him a pass just because the coach was an idiot.

He's a very talented prospect, and another year in junior would do him a world of good. If the Q was good enough for Mario Lemieux as a late b-day 18 year old scoring at a 4.02 PPG clip, then it's sure as hell good enough for this guy.

 

[Patmac40]

He's not such a phenom. if he were he would have performed a little better against 19 year olds at the World Juniors. I'm not giving him a pass just because the coach was an idiot.

He's a very talented prospect, and another year in junior would do him a world of good. If the Q was good enough for Mario Lemieux as a late b-day 18 year old scoring at a 4.02 PPG clip, then it's sure as hell good enough for this guy.

MacKinnon had a pretty poor showing as a 17 yr old at the WJC. It's not easy playing down in the lineup and producing. I'm sure a different tune will be sung next year.

And I'm not saying he should or shouldn't go to Europe, I'm sure the decision he's made is what he thinks is best for him and I'm looking forward to seeing him live again, but I don't think drawing a comparison from 35 years ago during a time when going to Europe to play as a North American teenager wasn't even seen as an option proves anything.

 

[93LEAFS]

MacKinnon had a pretty poor showing as a 17 yr old at the WJC. It's not easy playing down in the lineup and producing. I'm sure a different tune will be sung next year.

And I'm not saying he should or shouldn't go to Europe, I'm sure the decision he's made is what he thinks is best for him and I'm looking forward to seeing him live again, but I don't think drawing a comparison from 35 years ago during a time when going to Europe to play as a North American teenager wasn't even seen as an option proves anything.

Never read too much into a 17-year-old at a junior tournament. Puljujarvi has arguably the top performance for a 17-year-old in the event's history, and has struggled into the NHL (Laine also did and has turned out).

People should keep in mind Taylor Hall, who was a similar level prospect was cut by Hockey Canada as a 17-year-old. Canada leaves very talented 17-year-olds at home all the time (Marner, Hall, Seguin, etc). I don't think Lafreniere is generational, but I do think he's among the best winger prospects out of the CHL in the past decade alongside Hall, and probably Marner and Svechnikov (Lafreniere may be a tier ahead). I don't think he's unchallengeable for the #1 spot in 2020, but he's clearly the front runner with a significant lead. Lafreniere vs Kakko would be an interesting discussion.