It's indeed abit weird how someone like Crosby can "compile" himself above players with superior peaks but same is not true for defencemen and Orr. And by this I am not necessarily saying Orr is the one being overrated.
Explain why Bobby Orr is consensus best D?
- Thread starter YippieKaey
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MadLuke
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2011
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True for some over Potvin, Orr is just in a more special category and no one has more Norris trophy win than Orr has well, making it hard to compile over him.
Suppose I do agree but at the same time Esposito, for example, got more individual hardware and a higher peak than Crosby yet people rank the latter clearly above. Of course then you can argue the "Orr factor" but when talking, again for example, Coffey he gets full credit for the most part despite enjoying the "Lemieux+Gretzky factor". Yet again Orr himself gets full credit despite enjoying the "Esposito+low parity league factor".
Or to summarize, I feel like goalposts are being moved and I do truly believe there are some clear patterns as to when.
He was badly concussed in the '69 PO and it effected him against Montreal. Wouldn't have played at all today.
In '74 his knees had started to rob him of his skating prowress.
In '75 he was essentially on one knee and by the way in '68 he had knee issues also.
A hockey player is a hockey player. Clone 5 #4 and 5 #99 and Gretzky isn't seeing the puck nearly as much as #4.
Fred Stanfield and Johnny McKenzie were plus skaters on Orr's Cup squads. Carleton and Sanderson were no Westfall's either.
MadLuke
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2011
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- 6,970
Orr career maybe short put not a particularly short peak-prime, Ovechkin 3 season, Forsberg 5, Lafleur 6, Lindros 6, Jagr 7, Bossy 8
8 Norris in a row, I feel it is more than big enough of a sample size to evaluate how good someone was at playing hockey and remove any hot streak-luck notion of it.
Norris finalist in the 06 environment, more high-flying 70s, international tourney, his ridiculous junior exploits playing well at 14 against 19 years old nhl prospect at defence, cannot have much support for the situational would not have done well if y,z was different either, did many players prove themselves more at that level in more different hockey environment outside Gretzky ?
to give a bad equivalent, if winning the Norris is around being top 3 in scoring for an offensive forward level, people that did 8 or more time:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]1.[/TD]
[TD]Wayne Gretzky*[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.[/TD]
[TD]Gordie Howe*[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.[/TD]
[TD]Mario Lemieux*[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Phil Esposito*[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Stan Mikita*[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Sidney Crosby[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Are those with historically really long offensive peak (and able to play enough game enough time), not average or just good, but something the Beliveau-Jagr didn't even do, not that dissimilar to Mario in term of how many seasons he was able to play.
8 Norris in a row, I feel it is more than big enough of a sample size to evaluate how good someone was at playing hockey and remove any hot streak-luck notion of it.
Norris finalist in the 06 environment, more high-flying 70s, international tourney, his ridiculous junior exploits playing well at 14 against 19 years old nhl prospect at defence, cannot have much support for the situational would not have done well if y,z was different either, did many players prove themselves more at that level in more different hockey environment outside Gretzky ?
to give a bad equivalent, if winning the Norris is around being top 3 in scoring for an offensive forward level, people that did 8 or more time:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]1.[/TD]
[TD]Wayne Gretzky*[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.[/TD]
[TD]Gordie Howe*[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.[/TD]
[TD]Mario Lemieux*[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Phil Esposito*[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Stan Mikita*[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Sidney Crosby[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Are those with historically really long offensive peak (and able to play enough game enough time), not average or just good, but something the Beliveau-Jagr didn't even do, not that dissimilar to Mario in term of how many seasons he was able to play.
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BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
To add a couple points to your post, which IMO elevate Orr even higher.
In addition to the 8 Norris trophies, Orr has 2 Ross wins and 6x Top 3 in points.
Also, compared to the above is where you can take his short career into account. His last season he was only 26. And in that last season he won the Norris and Ross with 135 points, so it stands to reason that without the knees his actual Top 3 scoring finishes would at least be in that 8 group.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
If Orr had been healthy and on a half decent team in the 1979-1983 area...he probably gets a 50/150 season, even in his early 30's...him skating through those minor league cones for half of his games, look out...Orr to Denis Savard might actually be enough on its own, forget the rest of the team...
You and I have gone back and forth a little on this and you know I grew up in Boston
during #4's entire career.
I was 11 when he broke in 10\66 and I was 20, the last game he played for Boston 11\75. Outside of anyone connected to the Bruins org or his family and friends, there are no significantly bigger fans of Bobby Orr than me.
I'm 69 and played a bit in HS, had an older brother recruited as a goalie by Northeastern during his 68-69 Senior year in HS(Coach Bell in our living room).
My nephew played NCAA D3 79-80 thru 82-83. My son was NCAA D3 recruited
and I coached some.
I like to think I have a decent historical appreciation for hockey. There is no way
that the NHL Orr played in from 1969-70 thru 1975-76 was better than the NHL in
1982-83 thru just 1984-85.
A team of the top 20 US players from 1978-79 would be better than every
Expansion Team other than St. Louis 1967-68 through 1969-70. In fact a team of the top 20 US Players from 1982-83, would have worst case won 2
games in every single Final 1968-70.
So no way Bobby Orr dominates with those numbers on the 1982-83 Boston Bruins who incidentally were the best team in the RS in 1982-83. Orr would have been 35
in 1982-83, when the pace of the game required at least 5 D getting statistically significant TOI. He also would have been sharing time with Ray Bourque and
Brad Park. Talk about a Big 3...lol. Then you even have Mike O'Connell, Gord Kluzak
and Mike Mil bury as your top 6D.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
1 caveat, the butterfly effect of Orr still playing means probably doesn't trade for Park in 76. Even if they do, they arent in a position to draft Bourque 8th OA. So the early 80s Bruins more likely than not are rolling with just Orr or Orr/Park on D
Either way, with a final season of 46 goals and 135 pts it's not a stretch to think a healthy Orr in the late 70s puts up a 50 goal and 150 pt season. We are talking about what would've been prime years (age 27-30)
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
With all due respect, and that's fair enough, I'm not here to convince you otherwise...I don't think 1981 NHL holds a candle to 1970 NHL. We're talking multiple tiers difference in favor of 1970 being higher quality. I think it's quite evident in the film from my perspective. I think the extension of careers from sponsorship era players, while poorly developed players flaked out from '85 to '87 despite being younger than their predecessors, I think the gap between haves and have nots was massive in the late 70's/early 80's, that's why only two teams won in that span.
And then, too, you look at the scoring environments. There were two more goals per game scored in the later time and that's without Orr being a revolutionary...I think Orr could find a way to take advantage of that.
I can buy Orr\Park butterfly effect but Boston got Ray Bourque #8 trading Goalie Ron Grahame to LA for that #8 pick. Might arguably be the greatest trade in NHL history.
I believe you are really over rating the talent from Canada for a 12 team league thru
1969-70 compared to a 21 team NHL in 1982-83, with the absolute massive increase in talent from the US, Sweden and lesser degree Finland.
I created a thread asking how an evenly divided group of two US Teams would fared against the 1963-64 Rangers and Bruins. Look at the size of the B's forwards. Kurtenbach and Bucyk are the biggest for Boston at 6:02 and 6:00.
1982-83 Langway, Ramsey and Morrow would have neutralized them pretty easily. In fact all three US centers who IMO would have been Broten, Pavelich and Fergus were better than Murray Oliver the top B's center. The Wings would have included Joe Mullen, Dave Christian and Bobby Carpenter who though close, I would have taken over Bucyk, Williams and Prentice.
Goalie is the only position I give Boston an edge over Steve Baker only because Baker's career was impacted by injury.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Right, you need to cobble together an international team just to try to compete with the second worst "sustained" NHL team of the era (behind the early 50's Black Hawks) haha
No, the point is between the US, Sweden and Finland you have enough talent to surpass the talent of the first expansion era.
Anyway, a 1982-83 Team USA would have been very competitive with the NYR also and I could see the same situation with the Ranger forwards having trouble with
breaking down a D Corp led defensively by Langway, Ramsay and Morrow, not to mention the offense provided by Howe, Larson and O'Connell. So yeah an 1982-83
Team USA is knocking on the door for a SCPO spot in 1963-64.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
And Canada.
In 1958, over 150,000 “youngsters” across the country were playing in CAHA-affiliated leagues; by 1962, that number was more than 200,000. By the end of the decade, more than a half-million boys were playing organized hockey in Canada. During the winter of 1978–79, one million Canadian males played organized hockey
Thanks for those numbers.
So when you added Canada, US and Sweden to the pool of players per capita, the 21 team NHL had a bigger pool of talent to full rosters than the 6 or12 team league.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
The numbers argument isn't going to work for @Michael Farkas . His entire argument is based on watching tape and evaluating players by their actual hockey skills.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Well, just a second, we don't know - maybe the 1975 Washington Capitals had employed the 801,230th through 801,250th best players in the world - which would make those numbers way more relevant.
Well, just a second, we don't know - maybe the 1975 Washington Capitals had employed the 801,230th through 801,250th best players in the world - which would make those numbers way more relevant.
[/QUOTE]
Funny you mention that Caps team. Problem with them was their leading scorer
was Tom Williams and 2nd leading D man in scoring was Doug Mohns.
Both played for the 1963-64 Bruins...lol.
Who needs the 801,230 th guy when you have them.
Actually I worked with the late Doug Mohns, was a wonderful guy.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
Funny you mention that Caps team. Problem with them was their leading scorer
was Tom Williams and 2nd leading D man in scoring was Doug Mohns.
Both played for the 1963-64 Bruins...lol.
Who needs the 801,230 th guy when you have them.
Actually I worked with the late Doug Mohns, was a wonderful guy.[/QUOTE]
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Bobby Orr was an excellent Defenseman. He was demon with a wooden stick. Check his +/-.
Bobby Orr was the best offensive D-man to ever play in the NHL. He won 2 scoring titles (Art Ross).
He is the only defenseman to do that. He was a fast skater and an amazing passer. His slap shot looked like a laser.
When Orr scored his first Hat Trick against Chicago, he also had two assists for a 5 point game.
Orr could fight. In his Rookie season he fought with Ted Harris, the Montreal goon, and won.
He didn't have many fights because most people didn't want to fight him.
He changed the game of hockey.
Bobby Orr was the best offensive D-man to ever play in the NHL. He won 2 scoring titles (Art Ross).
He is the only defenseman to do that. He was a fast skater and an amazing passer. His slap shot looked like a laser.
When Orr scored his first Hat Trick against Chicago, he also had two assists for a 5 point game.
Orr could fight. In his Rookie season he fought with Ted Harris, the Montreal goon, and won.
He didn't have many fights because most people didn't want to fight him.
He changed the game of hockey.
I was at that game when he fought Ted Harris, was right near my 12th birthday in February 1967 at Boston Garden. He and Harris paired off and boxed, no jersey grabbing. Orr knocked him on his ass, let him get up and knocked him down with a
another punch. I will never forget that fight.
Later that game Bill Goldworthy got beat up by I think Claude Provost but I'm not sure.
