Management Eugene Melnyk - Lawsuits, rants and more... Part 5.5 (YOUS)

[BankStreetParade]

The only thing dishonest here is your reframing of my argument to suit whatever ulterior motive you have.

Assen na yo!

Not everything is a conspiracy - Jesus Christ some of you guys have gone off the f***ing deep end. It's simple math. 18500 tickets at $125 is more valuable than 19500 tickets at $45. It's just objective, I'm not sure why you would argue otherwise. Saying that Ottawa "drew more fans than Toronto" - in this context - is totally pointless. And you knew it. You're trying to present an argument that can't be made in the first place. Why? I don't know. Talk about ulterior motives.

 

[Masked]

Not everything is a conspiracy - Jesus Christ some of you guys have gone off the f***ing deep end. It's simple math. 18500 tickets at $125 is more valuable than 19500 tickets at $45. It's just objective, I'm not sure why you would argue otherwise.

I never argued that. I'm not sure why you'd bring that up unless you have extremely poor reading comprehension or you have some other reason for trying to completely distort my words. Maybe you just like to start random arguments on the internet by completely misinterpreting what they've written. Or maybe it is something else.

You do seem to be rather worked up about something that no one brought up. Thou doth protest too much, methinks.

Assen na yo!

 

[Masked]

Maybe so, but I'd say its still a very different experience with limited options.

Arguments can be made about the suitability of the rink in Kanata and that they can "survive", but there's no denying its not in an ideal location and will continue to be a handicap for their operation.

That's moving the goalposts from what you've originally argued though.

Assen na yo!

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That's moving the goalposts from what you've originally argued though.

Assen na yo!

I don't think so. My original statement was...

There is no more important need to the franchise's long term health than a downtown arena. It will always be a struggle otherwise.

I haven't moved the goalposts on that at all as my latest statement you quoted is essentially saying the same thing. They can survive at the current rink in Kanata like they have up to now, but they will never thrive with that handicap.

Arguments can be made about the suitability of the rink in Kanata and that they can "survive", but there's no denying its not in an ideal location and will continue to be a handicap for their operation.


If you're referring to this comment I made...

I am confident that much like Winnipeg, they would have no problem as a small market team if they had a reasonably sized downtown arena rather than the 19,000+ aging behemoth a good 40 minutes out of town

Followed By.

Maybe so, but I'd say its still a very different experience with limited options.

Agreeing that there are some very limited options available in Kanata or at the rink itself is not goalpost moving. It's still not a comparable to arena's in downtown cores like other Canadian teams where you have a plethora of options in a lively city center.

 

[Sweatred]

Saddling the team with $30 million a year of finance charges for 30 years while we pay off a downtown arena doesn’t guarantee any success. It certainly doesn’t guarantee any more revenue for the team payroll.

I’m not sure a new arena downtown pays for itself with more ticket sales and I think it’s quite obvious that no one else thinks it would either or they would build one.

To break even ticket prices would need to double and we would need to sell 15000/game.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Saddling the team with $30 million a year of finance charges for 30 years while we pay off a downtown arena doesn’t guarantee any success. It certainly doesn’t guarantee any more revenue for the team payroll.

I’m not sure a new arena downtown pays for itself with more ticket sales and I think it’s quite obvious that no one else thinks it would either or they would build one.

To break even ticket prices would need to double and we would need to sell 15000/game.

900 million to build an arena? That seems excessively high based on the comparable numbers I've seen presented by posters like Micklebot, JD1, etc. Either way, you have a point as it would require a large investment in the hundreds of millions.

The merits of funding it are another matter, and maybe it's just cost prohibitive without some form of public funds beyond free land, but it's certainly not contentious to say that this team will never "thrive" financially without a downtown arena.

They have had to operate with a significant handicap almost no other franchises have to face, in a small Canadian market to boot.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Alfie had beef with Murray and perhaps EM over his last deal and left. It sounds like he and the org aren’t in the best terms, I don’t know the specifics.

Murray and Alfredsson's beef was exaggerated, according to Murray.

 

[TonySoprano11]

Unpopular opinion, but I like Eugene Melnyk. As a fan of the team I have a number of problems with some decisions he has made. However, when I take a step back and take off the fan goggles, I do think Melnyk is making sound business decisions for the future overall health of the franchise.

I do believe he is invested in making this a perennial winning franchise. He certainly lacks professionalism and personal-relationship skills when it comes to hockey standards, but deep down I do believe he has been making mostly the right moves to turn this franchise into a long term success.

 

[Sweatred]

900 million to build an arena? That seems excessively high based on the comparable numbers I've seen presented by posters like Micklebot, JD1, etc. Either way, you have a point as it would require a large investment in the hundreds of millions.

The merits of funding it are another matter, and maybe it's just cost prohibitive without some form of public funds beyond free land, but it's certainly not contentious to say that this team will never "thrive" financially without a downtown arena.

They have had to operate with a significant handicap almost no other franchises have to face, in a small Canadian market to boot.

I don’t think it’s a “never thrive” issue … and yes we have seen estimates in the $1 billion range for new downtown arenas. Realistically the Sens build a 13500 type arena that costs less.

But for now which model is better ?

1) the CT Center which won’t cost any new money beyond repairs/updates and generates 13000 fans at league low prices

or

2) a swanky downtown arena that may have 13500-15000 capacity where doubling ticket prices won’t pay for the new building.

In the short term I think Kanata fuels more revenue for the payroll at least until the building fails.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I never argued that. I'm not sure why you'd bring that up unless you have extremely poor reading comprehension or you have some other reason for trying to completely distort my words. Maybe you just like to start random arguments on the internet by completely misinterpreting what they've written. Or maybe it is something else.

You do seem to be rather worked up about something that no one brought up. Thou doth protest too much, methinks.

Assen na yo!

So then what the hell is the point that you're making by bringing up the attendance, without any supporting context, of Ottawa and Toronto? I can't imagine a dumber argument being made than trying to brag that maybe we had a few hundred more people per game on average while completely ignoring all the other factors that go into attendance figures, chiefly the average cost of a ticket.

Dumb argument is dumb.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I don’t think it’s a “never thrive” issue … and yes we have seen estimates in the $1 billion range for new downtown arenas. Realistically the Sens build a 13500 type arena that costs less.

But for now which model is better ?

1) the CT Center which won’t cost any new money beyond repairs/updates and generates 13000 fans at league low prices

or

2) a swanky downtown arena that may have 13500-15000 capacity where doubling ticket prices won’t pay for the new building.

In the short term I think Kanata fuels more revenue for the payroll at least until the building fails.

I don't dispute that it might not make sense financially to build a new arena, and in the end will require public funds for it to ever gain traction again, but I don't think them not thriving in Kanata is really up for debate. It is a very significant handicap to their operation and always has been even if they've tried to make the best of it.

It's just an unfortunate circumstance for everyone.

 

[Sweatred]

I don't dispute that it might not make sense financially to build a new arena, and in the end will require public funds for it to ever gain traction again, but I don't think them not thriving in Kanata is really up for debate. It is a very significant handicap to their operation and always has been even if they've tried to make the best of it.

It's just an unfortunate circumstance for everyone.

Agreed - but in the meantime I can’t imagine getting much in the way of public funds considering how functional the CTC is (and paid for).

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Agreed - but in the meantime I can’t imagine getting much in the way of public funds considering how functional the CTC is (and paid for).

Agreed, nothing is imminent and they'll be in Kanata medium-long term either way.

It sucks for the franchise since it is such a limiting factor to potential revenue growth, but what can you do.

 

[aragorn]

Given how much was financially lost due to Covid, I doubt there will be much talk in the near future about re-location to a new arena. Especially now unless someone with deep pockets comes along to partner with EM something else I think is unlikely.

 

[Masked]

So then what the hell is the point that you're making by bringing up the attendance, without any supporting context, of Ottawa and Toronto? I can't imagine a dumber argument being made than trying to brag that maybe we had a few hundred more people per game on average while completely ignoring all the other factors that go into attendance figures, chiefly the average cost of a ticket.

Dumb argument is dumb.

Once again you're misrepresenting what I've posted.

It's pretty simple to understand the context of what I posted. That you either can't understand it and/or are trying your hardest to undermine it with misrepresenting what I've posted is not my problem. Even if I assume your motives are not malicious, I'm not here to educate you.

Assen na yo!

 

[BankStreetParade]

In the prime years the team was one of the best drawing teams in the league. When your attendance is higher than Toronto's, it's more than just enough.

You're rather ignorant about Ottawa's geography though. The building is in the city and it's less than 30 minutes from Place d'Orleans.

Assen na yo!

Once again you're misrepresenting what I've posted.

It's pretty simple to understand the context of what I posted. That you either can't understand it and/or are trying your hardest to undermine it with misrepresenting what I've posted is not my problem. Even if I assume your motives are not malicious, I'm not here to educate you.

Assen na yo!

Misrepresenting what exactly? Verbatim: "When your attendance is higher than Toronto's, it's more than just enough."

It looks like you want to dumb down the attendance discussion to nothing more than a head count, ignoring the fact that ticket prices - among many other factors - are extremely relevant to any discussion about attendance.

Instead of responding twice that I don't understand the dumb point you're making you could have just clarified your position. Instead you've chosen to waste time peppering in your lame attempts to discredit me by painting me as someone who can't understand you or is misrepresenting you.

Would have been much easier for you to clarify the point from the get go. Except for the fact that the point you were making made no f***ing sense whatsoever.

Oh, and by the way, during that time period we often had more Toronto fans in our building than Ottawa fans for those rivalry games. So much for that higher attendance talking point you're trying to force.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Nice to see people getting along in this Melnyk thread; not quite at the level of the last one yet but it has potential.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Murray and Alfredsson's beef was exaggerated, according to Murray.

Absolutely, at least in hindsight as well since Alfie has always been very complimentary of the man. I just remember Murray at the time being pretty adamant that money wasn’t owed.

 

[branch]

Given how much was financially lost due to Covid, I doubt there will be much talk in the near future about re-location to a new arena. Especially now unless someone with deep pockets comes along to partner with EM something else I think is unlikely.

It’s entirely possible that Melnyk made a shitload of money during the pandemic. A lot of the mega rich made a killing. Everything hit ATH and savvy investors poured millions into the market at the crashes. Would be off base to imply he lost money IMO.

 

[Crookshank]

900 million to build an arena? That seems excessively high based on the comparable numbers I've seen presented by posters like Micklebot, JD1, etc. Either way, you have a point as it would require a large investment in the hundreds of millions.

The merits of funding it are another matter, and maybe it's just cost prohibitive without some form of public funds beyond free land, but it's certainly not contentious to say that this team will never "thrive" financially without a downtown arena.

They have had to operate with a significant handicap almost no other franchises have to face, in a small Canadian market to boot.

you forgot about interest, 30 million in payments a year for 30 year at 5% rate is only a $450 million dollar loan

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

you forgot about interest, 30 million in payments a year for 30 year at 5% rate is only a $450 million dollar loan

I'm not sure how I feel about including financing costs flat out like that in the cost of building an arena, but in the context of Sweatred's post, you could be correct.

Borrowing can be beneficial even for the very wealthy, so I'm not convinced it's something that should just be seen as a sunk cost like that and we're accepting statements like it costs almost a billion bucks to build an arena, but to his credit, Sweatred was obviously including that.

 

[JD1]

The only way we are getting an arena at LeBreton is if one of Melnyk or Watson isn't involved

 

[Rand0m]

It’s entirely possible that Melnyk made a shitload of money during the pandemic. A lot of the mega rich made a killing. Everything hit ATH and savvy investors poured millions into the market at the crashes. Would be off base to imply he lost money IMO.

Yeah, what happened during the pandemic was a massive shift of wealth (once again) from the poor & middle class (whatever is left) to the rich. I mean I'm a small beans side investor for my retirement, I didn't really even do anything but hold on to my investments and things more than doubled in value in the past 2yrs.

Melnyk most definitely increased his net worth during this pandemic. If he didn't then we're truly doomed with him as an owner.

 

[Xspyrit]

Sure there could be lots of people outside the team that have had some issues.

But then again I’m talking about our current players. Who knows if Phillips is upset at the owner, the charity business closing would have a few levels of executives making decisions no?

Turris was miffed that he didn’t get a deal, and it was a solid move, so I’m not sure why we’d care about him.

EK, eh I don’t remember any drama with the owner, but he certainly wasn’t offered an blank cheque. Not sure how he was personally offended, but maybe that’s why?

Alfie had beef with Murray and perhaps EM over his last deal and left. It sounds like he and the org aren’t in the best terms, I don’t know the specifics.

Yes, I truly believe that the current players don’t have a hate on for the owner. Most fans don’t have a hate on for the owner. There is enough hate floating around in here though to make it appear as though everyone hates him though so I get the confusion.

I see... I personally don't even "hate" Melnyk, I think it's a big word. I reserve this word for people like Jake Virtanen or Logan Mailloux for example, people that selfishly destroy other people's lives. It goes beyond hate with murderers.

That being said, it seems that Melnyk has a lot of drama around him. You could say "yeah but he's rich"... I don't know, there's plenty of rich people that you don't really hear about in that negative way, or that he has alienated x number of people, etc. Melnyk doesn't seem to make only friends. Hopefully he didn't really spend time with the actual young players so he doesn't alienate them as well lol

 

[Cosmix]

Unpopular opinion, but I like Eugene Melnyk. As a fan of the team I have a number of problems with some decisions he has made. However, when I take a step back and take off the fan goggles, I do think Melnyk is making sound business decisions for the future overall health of the franchise.

I do believe he is invested in making this a perennial winning franchise. He certainly lacks professionalism and personal-relationship skills when it comes to hockey standards, but deep down I do believe he has been making mostly the right moves to turn this franchise into a long term success.

What are those "sound business decisions" and "right moves" you refer to?