ESPN: Rebuild? Red Wings just keep winning

[Heaton]

Has there ever been a time frame for the tanking teams? I mean Oilers have been tanking since like what... 2007?

And the Wings have been trending down since like what...2010?

 

[Dotter]

And the Wings have been trending down since like what...2010?

Not really. Just trending.

I guess the question in this debate should be 'would Oilers fans rather watch their team since 2007 win games and make the playoffs, or would they rather watch draft day?" Knowing the current results.

As a Wings fan, I would rather be exciting about watching hockey knowing my team has a chance at beating San Jose Sharks, Blues and Nashville.

And making the playoffs and pushing the eventual cup winners game #7 grueling OT. And the eventual eastern conference champs to gm#7 losing by 1 goal, feeling the excitement thinking one bounce is all it takes to win

We've felt heartbreak, but it's not like we didn't have a chance to winning in the playoffs. Draft day is fun, but I'd rather feel the excitement of what possibilities may come from the playoffs. I find no joy in tanking. And tanking doesn't guarantee anything. See Edmonton.

 

[Frk It]

Edmonton does kinda have what most experts believe to be the best hockey player in the world. Or will be by the end of this season.

So maybe not the best example at this very moment in time. Their fans are all loving life right now.

 

[SirloinUB]

Edmonton does kinda have what most experts believe to be the best hockey player in the world. Or will be by the end of this season.

So maybe not the best example at this very moment in time. Their fans are all loving life right now.

They are a great example of how difficult rebuilding is. Actually I'd say the best. They failed at rebuilding twice before they landed McDavid. It has taken the type of player who comes around every 10-15 years to give that team any sense of traction.

There was the Cogliano/Gagner/Paajarvi/Nilsson era

Then they Tried Hall/Eberle/Yak/Hopkins.

Now they have added Nurse/Drai/McDavid/Puljujarvi to the mix.

 

[Frk It]

They are a great example of how difficult rebuilding is. Actually I'd say the best. They failed at rebuilding twice before they landed McDavid. It has taken the type of player who comes around every 10-15 years to give that team any sense of traction.

There was the Cogliano/Gagner/Paajarvi/Nilsson era

Then they Tried Hall/Eberle/Yak/Hopkins.

Now they have added Nurse/Drai/McDavid/Puljujarvi to the mix.

And they still ended up with the best player in the world. If that's the worst example there is, that's still a pretty sweet ending. Doubt we see a player of McDavid's caliber in Detroit in the next 20 years.

 

[Bench]

Edmonton does kinda have what most experts believe to be the best hockey player in the world. Or will be by the end of this season.

So maybe not the best example at this very moment in time. Their fans are all loving life right now.

But that's not real happiness. That's the false happiness you get from watching elite talent every night. Real happiness is slugging along through the standings and slipping into that final playoff spot only to be outclassed by a division rival every year. Mmm, those sweet sweet possibilities that maybe this year Stamkos, Hedman, and Johnson will all be hurt by playoffs.

Satire aside, I think many of us here are feeling treading water is more painful than just straight up rebuilding. And not a full-blown tank. Just stop spending to the cap on veterans and play your ELC deals and aggressively fix the blueline. If that means you slip out of the playoff spot, so be it. That's the cost of progress in a league that rewards sliding teams with better players.

I was a strong proponent of making the playoffs and "going for it" when Lidstrom was on this roster still. I remember people arguing with me that the rebuild had to start, stop sighing the stopgap veterans, and that I was holding false hope. In hindsight, were probably right. And that's with me believing that 2012 team was significantly better than this 2016 one. I think now it's much clearer as 2016 Zetterberg isn't 2012 Zetterberg and 2016 Datsyuk and Lidstrom are invisible out there. Having been on both sides of the fence, I'm in a place now I'd feel more optimistic if the emphasis was on a genuine rebuild, not this hybrid tick-tack thing we have going.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

They are a great example of how difficult rebuilding is. Actually I'd say the best. They failed at rebuilding twice before they landed McDavid. It has taken the type of player who comes around every 10-15 years to give that team any sense of traction.

There was the Cogliano/Gagner/Paajarvi/Nilsson era

Then they Tried Hall/Eberle/Yak/Hopkins.

Now they have added Nurse/Drai/McDavid/Puljujarvi to the mix.

And "rebuilding on the fly" is somehow less difficult?

 

[Frk It]

But that's not real happiness. That's the false happiness you get from watching elite talent every night. Real happiness is slugging along through the standings and slipping into that final playoff spot only to be outclassed by a division rival every year. Mmm, those sweet sweet possibilities that maybe this year Stamkos, Hedman, and Johnson will all be hurt by playoffs.

Satire aside, I think many of us here are feeling treading water is more painful than just straight up rebuilding. And not a full-blown tank. Just stop spending to the cap on veterans and play your ELC deals and aggressively fix the blueline. If that means you slip out of the playoff spot, so be it. That's the cost of progress in a league that rewards sliding teams with better players.

I was a strong proponent of making the playoffs and "going for it" when Lidstrom was on this roster still. I remember people arguing with me that the rebuild had to start, stop sighing the stopgap veterans, and that I was holding false hope. In hindsight, were probably right. And that's with me believing that 2012 team was significantly better than this 2016 one. I think now it's much clearer as 2016 Zetterberg isn't 2012 Zetterberg and 2016 Datsyuk and Lidstrom are invisible out there. Having been on both sides of the fence, I'm in a place now I'd feel more optimistic if the emphasis was on a genuine rebuild, not this hybrid tick-tack thing we have going.

It's really hitting me this year just how much we have no star players. It's going to be really difficult for us to come up with one, with this change in how they do the lottery. Even if we wanted to tank, tanking is less viable than it's ever been. I'd like to believe Larkin can still become one (a star player), but outside of that, hard to say anyone has that type of potential.

As I said earlier, we really are in a precarious spot. Can't acquire what we need via trade. Management won't embrace tanking, and change in lottery makes tanking less effective. Lots of $ and term tied up in either moderately talented or declining guys. So we essentially have put all our eggs in the 'let's hope we draft high end talent in the middle teen's' basket. Which is a very, very difficult task to pull off. And I think several teams have passed us in scouting over the last 10-15 years.

 

[SirloinUB]

And they still ended up with the best player in the world. If that's the worst example there is, that's still a pretty sweet ending. Doubt we see a player of McDavid's caliber in Detroit in the next 20 years.

Yup. If Detroit sits in last place until 2027 we might be lucky enough to get a player of similar caliber.

I'd rather our GM actually attempt to ice a competitive roster every year (regardless of outcome) than watch a team deliberately fail and hope that we can get lucky a decade from now

 

[ArGarBarGar]

It's really hitting me this year just how much we have no star players. It's going to be really difficult for us to come up with one, with this change in how they do the lottery. Even if we wanted to tank, tanking is less viable than it's ever been. I'd like to believe Larkin can still become one (a star player), but outside of that, hard to say anyone has that type of potential.

As I said earlier, we really are in a precarious spot.

Even so the tanking method still has a high chance of success if you are looking to get a young high-caliber player.

We don't need to get a McDavid type to get back to contention.

 

[Winger98]

It's really hitting me this year just how much we have no star players. It's going to be really difficult for us to come up with one, with this change in how they do the lottery. Even if we wanted to tank, tanking is less viable than it's ever been. I'd like to believe Larkin can still become one (a star player), but outside of that, hard to say anyone has that type of potential.

As I said earlier, we really are in a precarious spot.

Mrazek, his rough last game aside.

This is why I keep pushing for moving guys who aren't essential for picks, though. The draft is a gamble, but the more shots you have, the better your odds. Especially since we're not picking high.

I'm entirely confident in Holland being able to move Helm, Quincey, Smith, etc. in their UFA years while remaining competitive and fighting for a playoff spot.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

It's really hitting me this year just how much we have no star players. It's going to be really difficult for us to come up with one, with this change in how they do the lottery. Even if we wanted to tank, tanking is less viable than it's ever been. I'd like to believe Larkin can still become one (a star player), but outside of that, hard to say anyone has that type of potential.

As I said earlier, we really are in a precarious spot.

The rebuild will come. It might not come tomorrow and might not come on Holland's watch, but a true rebuild will come before we field another cup-worthy team. Franchise talents just aren't found in the middle of the first round with any regularity. Tanks come with no guarantees, but make no mistake that elite hockey talent is most consistently found at the top of the first round.

 

[njx9]

Really I can't get on board with tanking. I just can't. I'm proud Wings are keeping the streak alive without resorting to the cowards way of tanking.

I really get the not wanting them to lose mentality. Every game I watch, I want them to win. I can't actively root against them, even if I think it's ultimately the right move.

That said, is it not clear that, given the way the team is currently being built, it's never going to win anything meaningful? I don't mean that to sound snarky, but this just isn't a Cup-winning roster, and the few prospects we have aren't good enough to really shift that outlook in the future. I don't really know how to resolve that basic conflict - wanting to win but also wanting to Win - but I think at some point I'd prefer the team take a risk and maybe miss, than never take a risk and never be better than middling. They don't have to tank to take a real chance at improving the team.

 

[Frk It]

Even so the tanking method still has a high chance of success if you are looking to get a young high-caliber player.

We don't need to get a McDavid type to get back to contention.

I think ownership/management has to think it is a worthwhile endeavor, though.

When you are guaranteed either McDavid or Eichel, yeah committing to tanking is a no-brainer.

But like Holland said, you could finish dead last and get the 5th pick now. The difference between getting Connor McDavid or Noah Hanifin is huge, for example. Some years you see a big drop-off outside the top 3.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

But what about missing the playoffs, being somewhat competitive, and giving yourself a chance to get a higher pick in the lottery?

I accept the fact ownership and management won't rebuild. That's not really the point of contention.

 

[Bench]

But like Holland said, you could finish dead last and get the 5th pick now. The difference between getting Connor McDavid or Noah Hanifin is huge, for example. Some years you see a big drop-off outside the top 3.

Holland isn't wrong there. You could be bad and basically get little out of it other than being bad. That would certainly hurt. I get his aversion because he's a man of many victories, records, and you know, wants to win.

And that's why so many of us aren't saying TANK. We're saying... just let the team you currently have do whatever it does. Ott? Nah. Vanek? Working out great, but does he have a long-term future here? I dunno. Skip Nielsen if you have to give him 6 years.

Let the team you drafted sink or swim and use the cap space on actual positions of need like signing Yandle or Goligoski this off-season. We're not saying don't sign anybody, just... pick your spots a little more deliberately and give yourself the opportunity to add pieces.

 

[Dotter]

And they still ended up with the best player in the world. If that's the worst example there is, that's still a pretty sweet ending. Doubt we see a player of McDavid's caliber in Detroit in the next 20 years.

20 yrs. By then another Zetterberg, Datsyuk or a Lidstrom might come along. STAY the course I say. I need/want/demand playoff hockey in my life. ANYTHING less is pure and utter failure

 

[Flowah]

Satire aside, I think many of us here are feeling treading water is more painful than just straight up rebuilding. And not a full-blown tank. Just stop spending to the cap on veterans and play your ELC deals and aggressively fix the blueline. If that means you slip out of the playoff spot, so be it. That's the cost of progress in a league that rewards sliding teams with better players.

Of course it is.

Treading water means there's no end in sight. It means you're not going to get better and ice a competitive roster eventually. It's the difference between sucking at something but improving, and sucking at something and never improving. The latter is awful while there can be great joy in the former.

People around the Leafs and Sabres are more upbeat even when there are losses. They know their team is in transition and that they have good pieces to build a winner if they do things right. They know there's a real plan there. I do not get that feeling at all from the Wings.

Yup. If Detroit sits in last place until 2027 we might be lucky enough to get a player of similar caliber.

They come around way more often than that, dude.

Since 2004 there's been Ovechkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Kane, Tavares, Ekblad, McDavid, Matthews. Those are all legit players you can built a contender around. 8/13 years. Elite talent.

And that's just first overall. There's still winners high in the draft like Eichel, Laine, Hedman, Toews that are elite level talent but didn't go 1OA, just really high up there.

But yeah, you need to pick high. Best chance.

20 yrs. By then another Zetterberg, Datsyuk or a Lidstrom might come along. STAY the course I say. I need/want/demand playoff hockey in my life. ANYTHING less is pure and utter failure

I demand Cup contending hockey. What good is playoff hockey if you're out in the first round? Is 5 games of the playoffs worth it? I'd 100x rather reload and miss a few years and have a real shot at the cup. Overall I'd guess we get the same number of playoff games in haha. 12 playoff games the last 2 years? If you play in the finals you're guaranteed to have had more games than that.

Let the team you drafted sink or swim and use the cap space on actual positions of need like signing Yandle or Goligoski this off-season. We're not saying don't sign anybody, just... pick your spots a little more deliberately and give yourself the opportunity to add pieces.

I see cap considerations tossed around as a concern with regards to trades with Anaheim for Fowler and even the Jets with Trouba. If we had more cap room by not oversigning vets, do you think that trade would have already happened?

 

[Frk It]

20 yrs. By then another Zetterberg, Datsyuk or a Lidstrom might come along. STAY the course I say. I need/want/demand playoff hockey in my life. ANYTHING less is pure and utter failure

The landscape of scouting has changed drastically since we drafted those players. I believe we were the only NHL team that even knew of (or were able to see) Datsyuk and Lidstrom. That kind of stuff rarely happens anymore. Scouts cover way more ground.

 

[Bench]

I see cap considerations tossed around as a concern with regards to trades with Anaheim for Fowler and even the Jets with Trouba. If we had more cap room by not oversigning vets, do you think that trade would have already happened?

I don't know. But at least then the only hurdle would be player value, not player value plus navigating the cap. It's hard enough trading for good young defenders, let alone when you have 0 cap space.

It's like throwing weights on your back before climbing Everest. You already had a tall order in front of you, no need to up the challenge.

Even if we don't want to trade guys like AA or Mantha for those defenders, why not allocate all the off-season energy to getting one of Goligoski or Yandle? Looks like Stamkos tunnel vision was in full swing and when that was over, all the defenders were gone, too.

 

[Frk It]

@Flowah

Trouba- Nope, would have made 0 difference. Simply don't have what Winnipeg wants.

Fowler- maybe, but cap seemed to be driving factor in his availability, and they seem to have that rectified now. I think they actually like Fowler and want to keep him.

 

[Bench]

The landscape of scouting has changed drastically since we drafted those players. I believe we were the only NHL team that even knew of (or were able to see) Datsyuk and Lidstrom. That kind of stuff rarely happens anymore. Scouts cover way more ground.

It still happens, but damn is it rare. Jamie Benn is probably the best recent example of a truly elite talent from the late rounds.

The reason you see so many late round picks be guys who are big bodies with question marks is the hope they are a late bloomer who turns into a scoring bull in a few years.

@Flowah

Trouba- Nope, would have made 0 difference. Simply don't have what Winnipeg wants.

Fowler- maybe, but cap seemed to be driving factor in his availability, and they seem to have that rectified now. I think they actually like Fowler and want to keep him.

They do. For all the talk about his faults around here, the Ducks still play him like a top pairing guy and most Ducks fans are more than happy to keep that rolling. Also it would be criminal to not have a guy named Fowler on the Ducks.

 

[Flowah]

@Flowah

Trouba- Nope, would have made 0 difference. Simply don't have what Winnipeg wants.

Fowler- maybe, but cap seemed to be driving factor in his availability, and they seem to have that rectified now. I think they actually like Fowler and want to keep him.

Oh sure on Trouba. But if he keeps forcing their hand they might not have a choice. And if it came down to it we simply don't have the cap room to take him on. I guess my point there was we've really handcuffed ourselves in this regard and without any real benefit. Does Ott make us a playoff team? Does he make us a contender? Does Miller? Does Helm? Maybe Helm makes us a playoff team but he surely doesn't make us a contender.

 

[Dotter]

The landscape of scouting has changed drastically since we drafted those players. I believe we were the only NHL team that even knew of (or were able to see) Datsyuk and Lidstrom. That kind of stuff rarely happens anymore. Scouts cover way more ground.

Aside from Benn,

PK Subban
Shea Weber
Jonathan Quick

It still happens.

 

[Frk It]

Aside from Benn,

PK Subban
Shea Weber
Jonathan Quick

It still happens.

It does happen, but not nearly enough to where it's wise to bet on. We're working on 16 years without being able to find a defenseman like Weber Ike Subban.