Erik Karlsson vs Drew Doughty (All time)

[Erik Alfredsson]

Apparently people weren't paying any damn attention when Karlsson was at his peak. Go back and watch the 2017 playoffs, because I did, and he was ELITE defensively. The fact that there's people on this site that STILL think that Karlsson was never a good defender, is an embarrassment.

Karlsson is the better player of the two. Doughty was a great defender, one of the best of his generation, but if it weren't for injuries Karlsson would've went down as one of the best of all time.

 

[Holymakinaw]

doughty didnt even deserve the norris he did win

LOL. Yes he sure did.

And he has always been, and always WILL be a far superior Defenceman, to "4th forward" E.K.

One has a legacy of winning.......the other is Erik Karlsson.

 

[wetcoast]

I’ve watched every game Karlsson has played in San Jose. Your eye test is bunk.

Vlasic turned back the clock in the playoffs and was excellent for the 18 games he played. That makes it even more confusing, and disappointing, that he has bookended that playoff performance with below replacement level performances in both of the regular seasons, but that’s where we’re at here.

Lol at Doughty playing well. Hopefully that wasn’t a typo and you were talking about some other guy named Daughty in another league or something, because Drew Doughty did not play well last season.

No it wasn't a typo, he was on a trainwreck of a team and the defensive corps were a bit better until you look to see that Muzzin was there for 50 games and Martinez only for 60.

Doughty had to do some heavy lifting, San Jose could outscore their problems in 18-19, the Kings couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag in 18-19 offensively and the goaltending situation was pretty poor as well.

Like I stated this season is on Doughty sure but you seem to be wearing 2 different set of glasses comparing these 2 guys in the last several years.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

No it wasn't a typo, he was on a trainwreck of a team and the defensive corps were a bit better until you look to see that Muzzin was there for 50 games and Martinez only for 60.

Doughty had to do some heavy lifting, San Jose could outscore their problems in 18-19, the Kings couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag in 18-19 offensively and the goaltending situation was pretty poor as well.

Like I stated this season is on Doughty sure but you seem to be wearing 2 different set of glasses comparing these 2 guys in the last several years.

Yeah, I’m wearing these crazy glasses that let you look at results.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I’ve watched every game Karlsson has played in San Jose. Your eye test is bunk.

Vlasic turned back the clock in the playoffs and was excellent for the 18 games he played. That makes it even more confusing, and disappointing, that he has bookended that playoff performance with below replacement level performances in both of the regular seasons, but that’s where we’re at here.

Lol at Doughty playing well. Hopefully that wasn’t a typo and you were talking about some other guy named Daughty in another league or something, because Drew Doughty did not play well last season.

It's the same as this season more or less. There are some games in which he's super invested and he's the superstar we all knew him as, then the other 2/3 of games you can kind of tell he's phoning it in. Not better, but it's clearly more to do with effort/investment than ability, which is why some of us are so bullish on a bounceback. Especially given he was Norris-worthy as recently as 2018.

Also, EK is getting the "he just had a kid!" "his team sucks!" alibis, why isn't Drew? And it's like he gets punished for being healthy for more than 97% of his possible NHL games and at a consistently high level instead of crazy peaks and valleys.

No it wasn't a typo, he was on a trainwreck of a team and the defensive corps were a bit better until you look to see that Muzzin was there for 50 games and Martinez only for 60.

Doughty had to do some heavy lifting, San Jose could outscore their problems in 18-19, the Kings couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag in 18-19 offensively and the goaltending situation was pretty poor as well.

Like I stated this season is on Doughty sure but you seem to be wearing 2 different set of glasses comparing these 2 guys in the last several years.

Which is really the problem in comparison. EK gets a boost for being on bad teams, and gets excused for shit going wrong around him, but gets credit when he 'takes the team to the playoffs;' Doughty gets slapped with full responsibility for his team being bad but gets called a passenger when the team is good. But Sharks fans of all people should know better. I can understand their defense of EK, can't understand their talking down on Drew when they had front row seats to his peak.

Remove the bullshit narratives, TRY to enjoy both players and you won't miss some of the best to ever play the game.

Like I said in my first post there's no way to change people's minds on Doughty at this point, but I'm convinced some people haven't even watched a game of his, and they out themselves everytime we do this thread.

 

[armani]

Erik Karlsson was in discussion as one of the all time great defencemen until his second major surgery after the Sens ECF run. Hope he is able to resume at least close to his old self in the coming years.

Karlsson easily for me.

 

[Kaner9]

EK has been better but Doughy is funnier. Love em both.

 

[Vachon23]

Keith vs Doughty would have been a better question for the best defenseman of his generation

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

It's the same as this season more or less. There are some games in which he's super invested and he's the superstar we all knew him as, then the other 2/3 of games you can kind of tell he's phoning it in. Not better, but it's clearly more to do with effort/investment than ability, which is why some of us are so bullish on a bounceback. Especially given he was Norris-worthy as recently as 2018.

Also, EK is getting the "he just had a kid!" "his team sucks!" alibis, why isn't Drew? And it's like he gets punished for being healthy for more than 97% of his possible NHL games and at a consistently high level instead of crazy peaks and valleys.





Which is really the problem in comparison. EK gets a boost for being on bad teams, and gets excused for shit going wrong around him, but gets credit when he 'takes the team to the playoffs;' Doughty gets slapped with full responsibility for his team being bad but gets called a passenger when the team is good. But Sharks fans of all people should know better. I can understand their defense of EK, can't understand their talking down on Drew when they had front row seats to his peak.

Remove the bullshit narratives, TRY to enjoy both players and you won't miss some of the best to ever play the game.

Like I said in my first post there's no way to change people's minds on Doughty at this point, but I'm convinced some people haven't even watched a game of his, and they out themselves everytime we do this thread.

I’m not really making excuses here since Karlsson doesn’t need any excuses to win a comparison against Doughty though. His results over the past few years are in a different tier.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I’m not really making excuses here since Karlsson doesn’t need any excuses to win a comparison against Doughty though. His results over the past few years are in a different tier.

If we pretend 2018 didn't happen, and that Ek has played more than 2/3 of a season since, and completely ignore deployment as well as stuff not on a cherry-picked spreadsheet viz, then sure, "different tier," Mr. "John Carlson isn't very good." Forgive us all for taking your hot takes with a large grain of salt.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

If we pretend 2018 didn't happen, and that Ek has played more than 2/3 of a season since, and completely ignore deployment as well as stuff not on a cherry-picked spreadsheet viz, then sure, "different tier," Mr. "John Carlson isn't very good." Forgive us all for taking your hot takes with a large grain of salt.

You couldn’t cherry pick any metrics that say Doughty has been better over the past three seasons if you tried.

 

[Bileur]

Apparently people weren't paying any damn attention when Karlsson was at his peak. Go back and watch the 2017 playoffs, because I did, and he was ELITE defensively. The fact that there's people on this site that STILL think that Karlsson was never a good defender, is an embarrassment.

Karlsson is the better player of the two. Doughty was a great defender, one of the best of his generation, but if it weren't for injuries Karlsson would've went down as one of the best of all time.

Yet in this thread it has been suggested Karlsson isn’t a playoff performer. What a joke.

It’s really no use arguing in these threads, anyone who has bothered watching and isn’t biased knows Karlsson has been better.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

You couldn’t cherry pick any metrics that say Doughty has been better over the past three seasons if you tried.

No one is trying to. Both guys have been relatively bad, but Doughty was a Norris finalist as recently as 2018. Saying Ek's results are in a "different tier" is some real gaslighting along the lines of suggesting they were never close at their peaks. But you also won't notice Doughty's fans trying to pass off a 20 game heater as representative of his entire career. That garbage gets old quick.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

No one is trying to. Both guys have been relatively bad, but Doughty was a Norris finalist as recently as 2018. Saying Ek's results are in a "different tier" is some real gaslighting along the lines of suggesting they were never close at their peaks. But you also won't notice Doughty's fans trying to pass off a 20 game heater as representative of his entire career. That garbage gets old quick.

You should probably understand you make sure what is being said before you accuse somebody of gaslighting because misunderstanding me isn’t the same as me gaslighting anybody, and when I talked about results I specifically talked about the last 3 seasons which include Doughty’s 2017-2018 season.

And no, Karlsson has not been relatively bad. He has missed plenty of games, but he’s been very good when healthy. He improves his team’s performance by GF%, CF%, xGF%, etc. when he is on the ice and the regressed metrics such as RAPM show he has a notably positive impact. By contrast, Doughty’s teams are worse by GF%, CF%, and xGF% when he is on the ice and the regressed metrics such as RAPM show he has a notably negative impact. How is anybody supposed to reconcile that and say Doughty has been better?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

You should probably understand you make sure what is being said before you accuse somebody of gaslighting because misunderstanding me isn’t the same as me gaslighting anybody, and when I talked about results I specifically talked about the last 3 seasons which include Doughty’s 2017-2018 season.

And no, Karlsson has not been relatively bad. He has missed plenty of games, but he’s been very good when healthy. He improves his team’s performance by GF%, CF%, xGF%, etc. when he is on the ice and the regressed metrics such as RAPM show he has a notably positive impact. By contrast, Doughty’s teams are worse by GF%, CF%, and xGF% when he is on the ice and the regressed metrics such as RAPM show he has a notably negative impact. How is anybody supposed to reconcile that and say Doughty has been better?

Again, not saying he's been better--but saying EK's results are in a different tier when he barely plays half a season and while completely ignoring Doughty's usage is tripe.

neither guy is doing a whole lot right now for a variety of reasons. It's ok to look away from the spreadsheet and acknowledge what's going on right in front of you as well. Otherwise, it's possible to end up in a deep hole, like how that John Carlson thesis turned out for you.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Again, not saying he's been better--but saying EK's results are in a different tier when he barely plays half a season and while completely ignoring Doughty's usage is tripe.

neither guy is doing a whole lot right now for a variety of reasons. It's ok to look away from the spreadsheet and acknowledge what's going on right in front of you as well. Otherwise, it's possible to end up in a deep hole, like how that John Carlson thesis turned out for you.

I watch probably ten times as many Sharks games as you.

Karlsson has played in just under 3/4 of the team’s games, and has ranged between decent and incredible in just about all of them. His results in the aggregate are very good. Care to tell me what I’m missing that’s right in front of me?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I watch probably ten times as many Sharks games as you.

Karlsson has played in just under 3/4 of the team’s games, and has ranged between decent and incredible in just about all of them. His results in the aggregate are very good. Care to tell me what I’m missing that’s right in front of me?

Drew Doughty, as usual.

And our conversations about on-ice save % apparently.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Drew Doughty, as usual.

The guy whose team is worse with him on the ice over the past 3 seasons?

 

[Iggys Dome]

Gimme DD. Defensively better than EK, more than respectable offensively, made it onto a stacked team Canada as a 19 year old, and his durability is unreal. Has only missed 16 games in his entire career by my count, regularly plays top pairing minutes and is noted for his second wind.

As a Flames fan I should hate him more than anyone, yet he's one of my favourite players. Such an underrated defenseman of our generation.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Sens had no business making the ECF in 2017. Karlsson led them there. Without him, they don't get past round 1. LA had Richards, Williams, Kopitar, Carter, Voynov, Stoll, Martinez, and Quick. Doughty had by far the superior teammates/Team.

Karlsson's prime is right up there with any defenceman in NHL history not named Orr. Better than Lidstrom's maybe too.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The guy whose team is worse with him on the ice over the past 3 seasons?

See, you're being deliberately ignorant. At least, I think you know better.

Doughty is the one eating all the hard minutes/assignments so other guys like Walker and Roy can play well. He's getting Vlasic's deployment, but with Joakim Ryan as a partner. He hasn't been himself for sure, but you put anyone else in his role and they get utterly crushed. I'll take it you're just ignoring my example of the 2018 playoffs from earlier, so reposting it here: when he was suspended in G2 against VGK, his replacements were a 25% and 33% CF when Drew was over 50% for the series against the best line in the league. VGK fans despise him and mock him for his mouth, but they'll be the first to tell you he's a difference maker too. And I know you know it too.

Here's the last thing I'll say about it because it's very clear from this thread how hard it is for many EK fans to admit Doughty is actually good too. Even early in his career people pointed out how Drew was a guy who outplayed his stats. They rarely flattered him. He's almost never been an awesome d-man on paper and it was always said you literally just have to watch him. That's why it's frustrating that after all this time it's still hard to quantify what he's brought to the table throughout his career. Hell I remember a game vs. the Ducks when he was in the thick of the Norris race and his final statline was just two giveaways and even and how many of the usual suspects popped in to mock him without realizing those two giveaways were goals he literally saved on the goalline and dumped out of trouble without icing. All the stuff about "there's no way defense can make up for a gap in offense" when he's out there shaving goals against and transitioning the puck out of trouble. People don't want to like him. That's it. The goalposts always move. People were loving CF% until they realized Doughty's historic shot attempt differentials, for example.

But whether his detractors like it or not, Doughty is going down alongside EK and Keith as the best of the bunch for what, an 8-10 year period? And I don't know why that irks that venn diagram so much. They're all phenomenal players and likely alltimers unless they just totally fall off the map now. Must be nice to be a Keith fan, he never gets attacked!

 

[aufheben]

At one point I considered Karlsson to be the best player on the planet.

 

[Hisch13r]

Karlsson very clearly.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Doughty was the better defenseman while EK had the sexy stats and offense. It’s basically a defense vs offense debate. In the end, EKs offense at one point put him among the best in the league. But it was only his offense, his defense has always been hit and miss, but more missing. Never mind the 2017 playoffs. Small sample size of games and he never repeated such a performance before or after that year. I’m tired of people using that as his claim to superiority, especially considering he didn’t maintain it.

EK will be remembered as the better player, but he shouldn’t be remembered as the better defenseman just because he was able to contribute more offensively And had to deal with bad teams.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Sens had no business making the ECF in 2017. Karlsson led them there. Without him, they don't get past round 1. LA had Richards, Williams, Kopitar, Carter, Voynov, Stoll, Martinez, and Quick. Doughty had by far the superior teammates/Team.

Karlsson's prime is right up there with any defenceman in NHL history not named Orr. Better than Lidstrom's maybe too.

Doughty was also the superior player defensively and was the major work horse and specialist on the Kings. So much so, that he helped them win 2 Stanley cups. EK “almost” winning something shouldn’t take away what Doughty actually achieved.

I sure hope not. He doesn’t belong anywhere near those two. Again, it’s his offensive stats and abilities that had many saying this, but defensively? He has hardly been elite, especially compared to Those two. EK was still a liability on the ice during his prime despite putting up 75-80 points. Many jumped the gun when he lead the league in assists and finished within the top 10 in points, and then cried when he didn’t win the Norris. Why? Because they ignored his -2, his 115 goals against(2nd in the league) and 98 at ES(1st)

even moving to a better and more secure team like the Sharks, his defense stilll continued to be suspect. It always has been, only many turned a blind eye to it because they were mesmerized by his offense.