GWT: EPL - Matchweek 28

[Savant]

Make a point? You must be joking at this point.

My whole point was that the biggest difference between Arsenal and Liverpool this season is Salah has 44 goal contributions and Arsenal's best attacker is injured (and lately all of their attackers are injured). Both squads are very good top to bottom, except that funnily enough both squads don't have a clinical striker. Liverpool have other world class players, but if they didn't have Salah then this season would look a lot different. You literally said as much when you said Arsenal are likely the early title favorites for next season and the uncertainty around Salah's contact situation being a big reason for it.

You are the one that picked an arbitrary goal contribution amount to make it seem like Liverpool's going to win the title with some "goal contributions from everyone" narrative, while ignoring that 65% of their goals involve one player. All I did was pick two other arbitrary numbers that tell a different story - the logical story where we recognize that the biggest difference between Arsenal and Liverpool is Salah's 44 goal contributions and not the margin between Mac Allister's 6 and Odegaard's 5.

Yes, Salah is player of the year. But LFC also have the best midfielder of the year, the best defender of the year, and the best manager of the year. It’s not just Salah. If you want to say he is the biggest reason, that’s fine, but he’s not carrying. In 13/14, Suarez was carrying. Thats not what’s happening here

 

[Savant]

He's trying to stay humble.

Honestly, if you wanted to sum up Arsenal’s season with one picture, it would be Declan Rice doing the shhhh celebration to Old Trafford after making it 1-1

That to me is a microcosm of Arsenal’s season. Also this



How the turn tables have turned

 

[Evilo]

When he player contributes more than 50% of this team's goals, hens totally dragging the team to the title and it's very reasonable to think Pool would be nowhere near as many points without him.

 

[Live in the Now]

He’s dragging the team to the title but they also have three players top 20 in goals. No other team does.

I would also say Slot dragged the team to the title because his tactics are FAR better than we had last season.

 

[Evilo]

He’s dragging the team to the title but they also have three players top 20 in goals. No other team does.

I would also say Slot dragged the team to the title because his tactics are FAR better than we had last season.

One doesn't exclude the other. No Slot, maybe no title. No Salah, surely no title.

 

[Savant]

One doesn't exclude the other. No Slot, maybe no title. No Salah, surely no title.

He’s dragging the team to the title but they also have three players top 20 in goals. No other team does.

I would also say Slot dragged the team to the title because his tactics are FAR better than we had last season.

How many title winning teams, especially in this era of the PL, do you take their best player (and no one else loses their best player) off and they still outright win the title though?

I just might have a different definition of dragging/carrying a team though. To me, as I said, Suarez in 13/14 is how I would definite dragging a team. Carrying is taking guys like Brendan Rodgers, Simon Mignolet, Jon Flanagan, Martin Sktrel and Joe Allen along for the ride. That’s obviously very different from the supporting cast Salah is working with.

 

[maclean]

Salah has 27 goals. No one is saying that without him it's -27 goals. Obviously some of that slack would be picked up. But that is a massive amount of goals by a player having a huge season who almost left last summer quite possibly without any replacement. These are statements of fact, as you seem to be so fond of. Nobody is trying to steal Liverpool's title by stating that a healthy Salah is a huge pillar in that campaign.

 

[Chimaera]

Of course Salah is a huge part of it. Also should be credit to the player who did not have a good conclusion to last season and the manager who has gotten this out of him.

Arsenal can say need to spend need to spend. They’ve spent. Manager spent money. Didn’t spend it on a legit striker. He’s an idiot.



Different note but man, United is a cup team at this stage. Like Liverpool a decade or so ago. Could win any match especially big ones on the day. Just as likely to get beat by a relegation side. It was a decent showing. But it just makes it seem even more incompetent that they’re where they are in the table.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I will say:

- Liverpool were very fortunate about the calendar (easier games at the beginning of the year), injuries, decisions by official (for once! After all the missed titles or pts dropped because of them over the past few years)

- Slot game management and in game adjustment have been also very important in getting results they would not have done before with Klopp. (Way more pragmatic in his approach, results are more important than dominating the scoreline or the way they play which also brought up a bunch of haters that believe a lot of LFC results are fortunate, as they would rather keep a 1 goal lead than trying scoring more goals)

- Main top 6 competitors collapsed. From Arsenal, Man City, Manchester United, Tottenham they all played below their expected standards from the beginning of the year. Only top 6 team that matched their expectations are Liverpool and Chelsea.

- Salah, VVD. I know Salah is the main guy and the favourite for ballon d'or (rightfully so) but I also believe having VVD is also a cheat code, the guy just ooze class, leadership and can compete against any top forward in the world. These 2 have had some of their best form ever, and they are a big reason on the title.

- Under appreciated depth, nobody in the football world (outside LFC fans) truly rated their midfield. If you did a vote at the beginning of the year they would probably be voted 4th or 5th best midfield in the EPL maybe even lower. Szoboszlai , Gravenberch, Jones, would have all been categorized as average at best and Mac Allister, not elite, just good. I think IMO and from what I have seen, they have carried the whole team this year. All of them stepped up and they have played as the top unit of the premier league this season.

Overall, without Salah or VVD, no title. Without Slot most likely closer to Arsenal and with a few more dropped points. Squad depth (injuries and time management) and quality in midfield were also under appreciated for the title.

Now, the big question like what happen next season? It will depend on the 3 out of contract players and recruitement. Until that is clarified I would not be able to project if they can repeat again. History would suggest no though.

 

[koyvoo]

None of that is important as having the leagues refs in your back pocket.

Opposition can have zero injuries all year, optimal scheduling etc, how can anyone beat that level of corruption?.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

None of that is important as having the leagues refs in your back pocket.

Opposition can have zero injuries all year, optimal scheduling etc, how can anyone beat that level of corruption?.

This is true. The Salah asterisks is much smaller than the mi6 one.

The best player Liverpool has is Oliver.

 

[Evilo]

How many title winning teams, especially in this era of the PL, do you take their best player (and no one else loses their best player) off and they still outright win the title though?

I just might have a different definition of dragging/carrying a team though. To me, as I said, Suarez in 13/14 is how I would definite dragging a team. Carrying is taking guys like Brendan Rodgers, Simon Mignolet, Jon Flanagan, Martin Sktrel and Joe Allen along for the ride. That’s obviously very different from the supporting cast Salah is working with.

How many EPL winners have a player accounting for 65% of their team's goals.
Name them. Good trivia.

 

[Evilo]

I will say:

- Liverpool were very fortunate about the calendar (easier games at the beginning of the year), injuries, decisions by official (for once! After all the missed titles or pts dropped because of them over the past few years)

- Slot game management and in game adjustment have been also very important in getting results they would not have done before with Klopp. (Way more pragmatic in his approach, results are more important than dominating the scoreline or the way they play which also brought up a bunch of haters that believe a lot of LFC results are fortunate, as they would rather keep a 1 goal lead than trying scoring more goals)

- Main top 6 competitors collapsed. From Arsenal, Man City, Manchester United, Tottenham they all played below their expected standards from the beginning of the year. Only top 6 team that matched their expectations are Liverpool and Chelsea.

- Salah, VVD. I know Salah is the main guy and the favourite for ballon d'or (rightfully so) but I also believe having VVD is also a cheat code, the guy just ooze class, leadership and can compete against any top forward in the world. These 2 have had some of their best form ever, and they are a big reason on the title.

- Under appreciated depth, nobody in the football world (outside LFC fans) truly rated their midfield. If you did a vote at the beginning of the year they would probably be voted 4th or 5th best midfield in the EPL maybe even lower. Szoboszlai , Gravenberch, Jones, would have all been categorized as average at best and Mac Allister, not elite, just good. I think IMO and from what I have seen, they have carried the whole team this year. All of them stepped up and they have played as the top unit of the premier league this season.

Overall, without Salah or VVD, no title. Without Slot most likely closer to Arsenal and with a few more dropped points. Squad depth (injuries and time management) and quality in midfield were also under appreciated for the title.

Now, the big question like what happen next season? It will depend on the 3 out of contract players and recruitement. Until that is clarified I would not be able to project if they can repeat again. History would suggest no though.

VVD was 100% responsible for a goal against PSG but of course Allison saved it. His defensive move was shocking.

 

[KJS14]

Yes, Salah is player of the year. But LFC also have the best midfielder of the year, the best defender of the year, and the best manager of the year. It’s not just Salah. If you want to say he is the biggest reason, that’s fine, but he’s not carrying. In 13/14, Suarez was carrying. Thats not what’s happening here

Again, you're just using arbitrary "awards" here instead of arbitrary numbers.

Without even getting into who has had the better seasons individually, surely you can recognize that the gap between your supposed "best midfielder" and "best defender" and their competition is significantly smaller than the gap between Salah and the next best forward. The gap between VVD and Saliba/Gabriel is miniscule. The gap between Salah and your pick of Arsenal's forwards this year is wider than the Pacific Ocean.

 

[Savant]

Again, you're just using arbitrary "awards" here instead of arbitrary numbers.

Without even getting into who has had the better seasons individually, surely you can recognize that the gap between your supposed "best midfielder" and "best defender" and their competition is significantly smaller than the gap between Salah and the next best forward. The gap between VVD and Saliba/Gabriel is miniscule. The gap between Salah and your pick of Arsenal's forwards this year is wider than the Pacific Ocean.

I think we just have different definitions of dragging/carrying. And honestly that’s okay.

 

[Savant]

Salah has 27 goals. No one is saying that without him it's -27 goals. Obviously some of that slack would be picked up. But that is a massive amount of goals by a player having a huge season who almost left last summer quite possibly without any replacement. These are statements of fact, as you seem to be so fond of. Nobody is trying to steal Liverpool's title by stating that a healthy Salah is a huge pillar in that campaign.

I don’t have a problem with any of this. As I said, I don’t this it’s correct to say Salah is “dragging” this team anymore than any teams best player “drags” them during any title chase. Yes Salah is the start, All I’m saying is people are underestimating the supporting cast.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

VVD was 100% responsible for a goal against PSG but of course Allison saved it. His defensive move was shocking.

Talk about nit picking a non goal situation.

The play you are refering to was actually a good read from VVD but followed by a poor reaction to that read. He anticipated a run from Dembele and covered him but drifted on Konaté side of the defense. He 'tried' to cover back to his side and also put back Dembele in offside position and psg was able to get the pass in time and caught him off. Still very poor but not typical of him. He would be the first to admit it too.

That is very nitpicky of all other instance that VVD saved LFC arse over the past year. Next time look at how he organize the defensive line or clear the pass on crosses and corners this is where he shine the most.

Funny enough the main weaknesse of VVD are with nifty center forward/false nine that like to move in channel and move around a lot or come short to get passes. VVD is always very aggresive and enjoy physical duals to get the ball back. Which is also why PSG is the worst match for him as their forward players constantly interchange position. If you match him with a lone forward like Haaland or more regular forward that stay close to the box this is where he trives the most

That being said, VVD is rarely caught off the defensive like against PSG usually it's more TAA or Robertson that are caught too low or cheating.

Overall it was not good performance from all LFC player so it is not fair to judge him on that game alone. Otherwise you would believe Alisson is the best LFC player which is far from the truth this season.

 

[Evilo]

It really isn't nitpicking. You don't expect any world class CB to do that in this situation. It was outrageously bad.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

It really isn't nitpicking. You don't expect any world class CB to do that in this situation. It was outrageously bad.

It is very nitpicking. It's like taking the worst miss of Messi, and trying to extrapolate as proof that he is not a world class player while ignoring all the other games of the season when he was MOTM.

That game (for all LFC players bar Alisson) was an outliner of a formidable season. His 'error' while bad does not define a season nor even that game. Other than that mistake he was pretty good overall against PSG. Same apply to Salah who did nothing against PSG but he has been very good in all other LFC games this season.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

It really isn't nitpicking. You don't expect any world class CB to do that in this situation. It was outrageously bad.

You are Saliba #1 stan so go take a look at his disaster class against Newcastle. Does that make him bad? No because 99% of the time he does not make these errors. He is still a world class player.