Olympics: Enjoy it, Canadian fans, while we can...

[Yakushev72]

No matter what I think of the WHC as a bottom of the barrel, 3rd rate tournament that the IIHF tries to peddle off as a credible World Hockey Championship... no matter that particular opinion, I don’t expect 19, 20 and 23 year old players to singlehandedly lead their team to the brink of a championship… in 2013, a 23 year old Stamkos, I admit, it would have been nice, but not really expected.

But since you brought up the topic and Russia has managed to win a few of these 3rd rate, bottom of the barrel tournaments over the past few years, perhaps you’d like to pick out for us the young Russian player of a similar age to Stamkos who has dominated the grand stage leading his team to the brink of a championship and highlight his stat line…A young Kuznetsov perhaps?

A young Kuznetsov perhaps? I know that both you and I remember very well that Kuznetsov was the most dominant player on the ice - the player who led Russia to the brink, and then took them over the brink to a championship and a berth in the championship game, respectively, when Russia met Canada in the medal round of the WJC in Buffalo and Calgary. I'm sorry to reawaken those old wounds. He has played in two WC's, although he has been a backliner who hasn't gotten much ice time. He's still young, and hasn't worked his way up to the forefront yet, but he is a fantastic talent who will definitely make his impact in the future - maybe as soon as this season in Washington. He is one of a number of really talented young Russian forwards who will make their presence felt.

But it wasn't me who made any claims about Kuznetsov or anyone else. I was merely debating those Canadian posters who say that the talent gap is so wide that other countries shouldn't even bother to show up at the next Olympics, if there is one involving NHL players. I disagree with that, for good reason. It is true that no one else will be given a remote chance to win, but I think Canada could well be ripe for a fall!

 

[JackSlater]

I'm not arguing that John Tavares isn't an outstanding player.

That is exactly what you are arguing.

In the NHL, he has averaged 22 goals and 29 assists per season, for an average of 51 points per season. Those aren't NHL record numbers, but they are better than guys who score less than 20 goals and less than 50 points per year.

There are so many problems here. One logical issue is that you are essentially trying to punish Tavares for making the NHL as an 18 year old on a terrible team, which would depress his points to a degree. I can at least understand why you might do that, given your stance. Another logic issue, which I fully understand given your stance, is that you conveniently ignore that Tavares was injured after 59 games this season, and also that last season was shortened to 48 games, and thus in your phrasing Tavares looks far less impressive. I do not understand the factual error though. Tavares has averaged 27 goals and 63 points in his career. Once again, this is despite one season being barely 50% of the typical NHL season length, and his injury last year, though of course those facts are inconvenient given your stance.

Our different outlooks on the subject seem to revolve around different perspectives of international hockey in comparison to the NHL day in and day out play. I don't know what John Tavares' numbers against the Winnipeg Jets are, but I do believe that you are talking about apples and oranges when you seem to equate teams like the Jets to Olympic national teams. As I compare Team Canada at Sochi to the Winnipeg Jets, I honestly believe that it would be much easier to score and be dominant against Winnipeg than against the Canadian Olympic Team. So projecting probable performance against national teams based on performances against the Winnipeg Jets may be relevant against Austria or Norway, but not relevant against Sweden, the United States, Russia, Finland, and even the Czechs. So I do tend to be incredulous when you base arguments about talent imbalance based on performance that only satisfies a standard of being better than most others.

Do you have evidence that Tavares shines against the worst NHL teams and then shrinks against elite opposition?

A young Kuznetsov perhaps? I know that both you and I remember very well that Kuznetsov was the most dominant player on the ice - the player who led Russia to the brink, and then took them over the brink to a championship and a berth in the championship game, respectively, when Russia met Canada in the medal round of the WJC in Buffalo and Calgary. I'm sorry to reawaken those old wounds. He has played in two WC's, although he has been a backliner who hasn't gotten much ice time. He's still young, and hasn't worked his way up to the forefront yet, but he is a fantastic talent who will definitely make his impact in the future - maybe as soon as this season in Washington. He is one of a number of really talented young Russian forwards who will make their presence felt.

Kuznetsov was indeed an impressive junior player as a drafted 18 and 19 year old. That's something that Tavares, Stamkos, Duchene, Seguin, Hall, MacKinnon and others never were given the opportunity to experience as they were active NHLers, though that isn't Kuznetsov's fault. You must see an issue when you say that players like Tavares and company are not parts that have impact in attempts at gold medals, while these really talented young Russian forwards will make their presence felt... despite having been far less impressive when in the same environment.

But it wasn't me who made any claims about Kuznetsov or anyone else. I was merely debating those Canadian posters who say that the talent gap is so wide that other countries shouldn't even bother to show up at the next Olympics, if there is one involving NHL players. I disagree with that, for good reason. It is true that no one else will be given a remote chance to win, but I think Canada could well be ripe for a fall!

Who are these posters? The talent gap is obvious and not deniable. The vast majority of people are aware that having a big edge in talent does not guarantee a win though. USSR didn't lose to USA in the 1980 Olympics because that American team was more talented. They lost because in a short hockey tournament anything can happen, and the most talented (or even the best) team doesn't always win.

 

[Get North]

What Russians are going to make an impact? Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Yakupov, Nichushkin, Grigorenko, Kucherov? Those guys have a hard chance of cracking Canada's D team. That's how big the gap is.

Sweden will have old Zetterberg, Sedins, Franzen, Kronwall, Oduya. Players who will start decline, Backstrom, Eriksson, Steen, Edler. They're going to need a big impact from Nyquist, Soderberg, Zibanejad, Lindholm, Forsberg. I don't think those guys will fill the shoes of Zetterberg, Sedins.

USA will probably be the best competition but I don't think they'll do well in 2018 and the international ice will ruin their game IMO.

I don't think Yakushev knows how good some of the Canadians really are.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

What Russians are going to make an impact? Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Yakupov, Nichushkin, Grigorenko, Kucherov? Those guys have a hard chance of cracking Canada's D team. That's how big the gap is.

Sweden will have old Zetterberg, Sedins, Franzen, Kronwall, Oduya. Players who will start decline, Backstrom, Eriksson, Steen, Edler. They're going to need a big impact from Nyquist, Soderberg, Zibanejad, Lindholm, Forsberg. I don't think those guys will fill the shoes of Zetterberg, Sedins.

USA will probably be the best competition but I don't think they'll do well in 2018 and the international ice will ruin their game IMO.

The U.S. will be a little old in the tooth up front as well. On paper, 2018 should be easier for Canada than 2014.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Don't get me wrong kevyD and Rayferraro, I like your optimism.

But you guys are WAAAY too overconfident and underestimating the opposition far too much.

 

[helax]

What Russians are going to make an impact? Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Yakupov, Nichushkin, Grigorenko, Kucherov? Those guys have a hard chance of cracking Canada's D team. That's how big the gap is.

Sweden will have old Zetterberg, Sedins, Franzen, Kronwall, Oduya. Players who will start decline, Backstrom, Eriksson, Steen, Edler. They're going to need a big impact from Nyquist, Soderberg, Zibanejad, Lindholm, Forsberg. I don't think those guys will fill the shoes of Zetterberg, Sedins.

USA will probably be the best competition but I don't think they'll do well in 2018 and the international ice will ruin their game IMO.

I don't think Yakushev knows how good some of the Canadians really are.

Yes lets give you guys the gold, then we don't need to play the tournement and save a lot of insurance money for the NHLPA. Win win for your guys

Sweden will be good, we will have an amazing D core and Landerskog to lead the team. Anything can happen in a knockout tournament.

 

[helax]

Just look at the world juniors. Your guys come in every year with the attitude that there is no opposition worth considering. The victory over you is so much sweeter then

 

[Get North]

Yes lets give you guys the gold, then we don't need to play the tournement and save a lot of insurance money for the NHLPA. Win win for your guys

Sweden will be good, we will have an amazing D core and Landerskog to lead the team. Anything can happen in a knockout tournament.

That's true anything can happen, I'm not saying this will be an easy tournament for Canada but it looks like the talent gap will be even bigger than it was in 2014. What will we see from Sweden on defence? Kylington, Kronwall, Hedman, OEL, Lindholm, Karlsson, Brodin? That looks really good if Kylington, Lindholm, Brodin develop into solid top 4 defencemen.

But again, comparing it to Canada it is favoured toward the Canadians. Weber, Keith, Subban, Doughty, Pietrangelo and then 2 spots left for guys like Giordano/Hamhuis/Bouwmeester/Murray/Rielly/Reinhart/Pouliot. Any of Weber, Keith, Subban, Doughty, Pietrangelo would be top defencemen for Sweden, Pietrangelo and Subban are going to be top 2 defencemen for Sweden along with Karlsson.

Don't get me wrong kevyD and Rayferraro, I like your optimism.

But you guys are WAAAY too overconfident and underestimating the opposition far too much.

This is how I see it on paper. We have more high-end talent than other teams and more younger, better players that are emerging. I think with guys like Tavares, Stamkos, Giroux, Doughty, already the top players of the NHL imagine in 4 years when they should be getting even better.

I might be off a bit and making us look better than we are but I would actually like to see how others see Canada compared to nations like USA, Sweden, Russia, Finland.

The U.S. will be a little old in the tooth up front as well. On paper, 2018 should be easier for Canada than 2014.

I agree. Americans got a few players who'll start to decline in Backes, Callahan, Parise, Kesler, Brown, Pavelski, Miller, Suter. They'll have a good young defence core with Fowler, Hanifin, Jones, Carlson, Faulk, Shattenkirk, McDonagh, Trouba.

I think on forward a few guys will need to step up to replace the players on both the 2010 and 2014 teams. Americans like Eichel, Galchenyuk, Saad, Bennett, Stepan.

 

[1Gold Standard]

A young Kuznetsov perhaps? I know that both you and I remember very well that Kuznetsov was the most dominant player on the ice - the player who led Russia to the brink, and then took them over the brink to a championship and a berth in the championship game, respectively, when Russia met Canada in the medal round of the WJC in Buffalo and Calgary. I'm sorry to reawaken those old wounds. He has played in two WC's, although he has been a backliner who hasn't gotten much ice time. He's still young, and hasn't worked his way up to the forefront yet, but he is a fantastic talent who will definitely make his impact in the future - maybe as soon as this season in Washington. He is one of a number of really talented young Russian forwards who will make their presence felt.

But it wasn't me who made any claims about Kuznetsov or anyone else. I was merely debating those Canadian posters who say that the talent gap is so wide that other countries shouldn't even bother to show up at the next Olympics, if there is one involving NHL players. I disagree with that, for good reason. It is true that no one else will be given a remote chance to win, but I think Canada could well be ripe for a fall!

It was you who referenced the WHC in relation to Stamkos, not the WJC. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your argument that young players falling within that age bracket (19 -22 years old) typically don't dominate on that stage and lead teams to gold medals; so it would be foolish of you to expect it and even beyond foolish to offer it up as a criticism of a particular player when a team doesn't achieve that specific goal; or do I have to remind you that hockey is a team sport?

Kuznetzov has his gold medal from the WJC, good for you for pointing that out...but since then there hasn't been much developing happening... but maybe the NHL can finally turn him into the player so many in Russia predicted for him since the age of 12.

But returning to your argument, as illogical as it was, since that particular triumph of young Kuznetsov, he has also played at the WHC as 20, 21 and 22 year old, generally the same age as Stamkos, and has played the same number of games (22) at the senior men's level. Kuznetzov has just a mere 5 goals and 4 assists (9 pts in 22 games) to show for his efforts, contributing little, next to nothing, on the 2 gold medal winning teams, a mere passenger in both; and in the other, was more of a basket case than anything else, contributing more to a losing effort than anything else. But hey, I'm not criticizing Kuznetzov, that's the life of a young, developing player with National Team aspirations and an average player will show those kinds of flaws in his game when he is thrown into the deep end and is in way over his head... in comparison, the level of play Mr. Stamkos has exhibited at the WHC when he was thrown into the deep end is leaps and bounds beyond what one would typically expect from a young, developing player with NT aspirations, 22 games 16 goals 10 assists for 26 pts. Ya, Stevie boy can swim in the deep end.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Don't get me wrong kevyD and Rayferraro, I like your optimism.

But you guys are WAAAY too overconfident and underestimating the opposition far too much.

Fair enough but if you don't believe me/us, make up a 2018 roster for all of the top teams and let me know if you are not shocked by the gap.

That's true anything can happen, I'm not saying this will be an easy tournament for Canada but it looks like the talent gap will be even bigger than it was in 2014. What will we see from Sweden on defence? Kylington, Kronwall, Hedman, OEL, Lindholm, Karlsson, Brodin? That looks really good if Kylington, Lindholm, Brodin develop into solid top 4 defencemen.

But again, comparing it to Canada it is favoured toward the Canadians. Weber, Keith, Subban, Doughty, Pietrangelo and then 2 spots left for guys like Giordano/Hamhuis/Bouwmeester/Murray/Rielly/Reinhart/Pouliot. Any of Weber, Keith, Subban, Doughty, Pietrangelo would be top defencemen for Sweden, Pietrangelo and Subban are going to be top 2 defencemen for Sweden along with Karlsson.

This is how I see it on paper. We have more high-end talent than other teams and more younger, better players that are emerging. I think with guys like Tavares, Stamkos, Giroux, Doughty, already the top players of the NHL imagine in 4 years when they should be getting even better.

I might be off a bit and making us look better than we are but I would actually like to see how others see Canada compared to nations like USA, Sweden, Russia, Finland.

I agree. Americans got a few players who'll start to decline in Backes, Callahan, Parise, Kesler, Brown, Pavelski, Miller, Suter. They'll have a good young defence core with Fowler, Hanifin, Jones, Carlson, Faulk, Shattenkirk, McDonagh, Trouba..

The U.S. will be (more than) fine on D and in goal. Up front you forgot Brown (33/34), Stastny (32), and T.J. Oshie (31/32).

I think on forward a few guys will need to step up to replace the players on both the 2010 and 2014 teams. Americans like Eichel, Galchenyuk, Saad, Bennett, Stepan.

But how many of those 5 are actually Olympic caliber players?

Eichel will be 21 in Korea. Perhaps he will be ready to be the best forward on the U.S. team. Maybe not.

Galchenyuk really took a step back last year and I have never been all that impressed.

Saad is (very?) good but not great. Same with Stepan.

Bennett cannot stay healthy.

On the big ice, perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I could see them laying an egg (offensively) in Korea.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

I forced myself to (re)watch the Canada-U.S. round robin game in Vancouver. I was shocked how good Parise and Kesler were. Parise was EVERYWHERE and on the ice for every(?) goal. Kesler was great and on a mission. They really caught Canada flat footed.

Both Parise and Kesler were a step (or two) slower in Sochi. I assume they will be another step or two slower in Korea - given their age and the type of game they play. I'm glad because I wouldn't want to go thru THAT again!

 

[Yakushev72]

Fair enough but if you don't believe me/us, make up a 2018 roster for all of the top teams and let me know if you are not shocked by the gap.



The U.S. will be (more than) fine on D and in goal. Up front you forgot Brown (33/34), Stastny (32), and T.J. Oshie (31/32).



But how many of those 5 are actually Olympic caliber players?

Eichel will be 21 in Korea. Perhaps he will be ready to be the best forward on the U.S. team. Maybe not.

Galchenyuk really took a step back last year and I have never been all that impressed.

Saad is (very?) good but not great. Same with Stepan.

Bennett cannot stay healthy.

On the big ice, perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I could see them laying an egg (offensively) in Korea.

Who do you have listed on the 2018 Russian Olympic roster?

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Who do you have listed on the 2018 Russian Olympic roster?

You know the Russian players better than me. Please provide the 2018 Russian Roster you believe will compete in Korea and we can do a comparison.

 

[Yakushev72]

You know the Russian players better than me. Please provide the 2018 Russian Roster you believe will compete in Korea and we can do a comparison.

Wait a minute, Kevy, it was you who said, and I quote, "make up a roster for all of the top teams and let me know if you are not shocked by the gap." That statement presumes that you have some idea who will populate rosters other than Canada's. If you don't, the only level of assessment that remains is "assumed to be inferior."

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Wait a minute, Kevy, it was you who said, and I quote, "make up a roster for all of the top teams and let me know if you are not shocked by the gap." That statement presumes that you have some idea who will populate rosters other than Canada's. If you don't, the only level of assessment that remains is "assumed to be inferior."

Wait a minute, Y72 , Russia is the country I feel least comfortable building a roster around because of the KHL. If I was to build a Russian roster it would be based on your less than impressive Olympic showing, your aging superstars (in 2018, OV will be 32, Malkin 32, Kovalckuk 35, Radulov 31 and Daysyuk 39, Andrei Markov 39) and strictly NHL players. You (seem to believe in and) have a strong knowledge of Russians in both leagues so I will bow to your knowledge. It would be best if you built the best possible Russian roster for 2018.

Perhaps, after looking at your roster, I will change my mind and feel there is no gap between Russia and Canada.

 

[Get North]

The U.S. will be (more than) fine on D and in goal. Up front you forgot Brown (33/34), Stastny (32), and T.J. Oshie (31/32).

But how many of those 5 are actually Olympic caliber players?

Eichel will be 21 in Korea. Perhaps he will be ready to be the best forward on the U.S. team. Maybe not.

Galchenyuk really took a step back last year and I have never been all that impressed.

Saad is (very?) good but not great. Same with Stepan.

Bennett cannot stay healthy.

On the big ice, perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I could see them laying an egg (offensively) in Korea.

I agree, I don't really see a big talent on that team other than possibly Eichel on the forward group. Just on the top of my head I'm guessing the forward roster would include: Pacioretty, Pavelski, Oshie, Stastny, Parise, Kane, Kessel, Wheeler, JVR, Okposo, Stepan, Eichel, Galchenyuk.

Doesn't really have a player that's standing out other than Kane, Kessel and potentially Eichel.

They'll be our toughest opponents IMO but looking at their history of playing overseas in Europe, Asia it doesn't look good for them at all. Since 1972, USA have never won a medal at the Olympics playing on bigger ice.

 

[Xokkeu]

Fair enough but if you don't believe me/us, make up a 2018 roster for all of the top teams and let me know if you are not shocked by the gap.



The U.S. will be (more than) fine on D and in goal. Up front you forgot Brown (33/34), Stastny (32), and T.J. Oshie (31/32).



But how many of those 5 are actually Olympic caliber players?

Eichel will be 21 in Korea. Perhaps he will be ready to be the best forward on the U.S. team. Maybe not.

Galchenyuk really took a step back last year and I have never been all that impressed.

Saad is (very?) good but not great. Same with Stepan.

Bennett cannot stay healthy.

On the big ice, perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I could see them laying an egg (offensively) in Korea.

People were saying the same crap in 2010.

 

[Get North]

People were saying the same crap in 2010.

2010 wasn't on big ice, big ice is a huge deal for the Americans and probably the biggest reason why they don't have success on it. You always have to take the ice into consideration along with a few older Americans who need replacements.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

I agree, I don't really see a big talent on that team other than possibly Eichel on the forward group. Just on the top of my head I'm guessing the forward roster would include: Pacioretty, Pavelski, Oshie, Stastny, Parise, Kane, Kessel, Wheeler, JVR, Okposo, Stepan, Eichel, Galchenyuk.

Doesn't really have a player that's standing out other than Kane, Kessel and potentially Eichel.

The way I look at it is...

In 2014, the U.S. did not have one forward over the age of 29. Using the players above, they will have 7 in their 30's in Korea - some as old as 33. That's a lot of extra bumps, bruises and miles.

People were saying the same crap in 2010.

Crap?!?!?!?! That's Gold Jerry, I mean Xokkeu, Gold!!!!

People were saying the U.S. was too young in 2010. In 2004 and 2006 they were saying they were too old - and we know how that turned out.

 

[Xokkeu]

The way I look at it is...

In 2014, the U.S. did not have one forward over the age of 29. Using the players above, they will have 7 in their 30's in Korea - some as old as 33. That's a lot of extra bumps, bruises and miles.



Crap?!?!?!?! That's Gold Jerry, I mean Xokkeu, Gold!!!!

People were saying the U.S. was too young in 2010. In 2004 and 2006 they were saying they were too old - and we know how that turned out.

No they said the team didn't have the skill up front to score. The forward group was underrated by most of the so called experts who thought the US team would do well just to get bronze. The critique is returning for 2018.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

No they said the team didn't have the skill up front to score. The forward group was underrated by most of the so called experts who thought the US team would do well just to get bronze. The critique is returning for 2018.

Fair enough.

 

[Xokkeu]

2010 wasn't on big ice, big ice is a huge deal for the Americans and probably the biggest reason why they don't have success on it. You always have to take the ice into consideration along with a few older Americans who need replacements.

The US has won u18 u20 and IIHF world medals on big ice. They also own silver in 2002 on a larger ice surface. There are three data points in the Olympics, one freak collapse in 1998, a bad team in 2006 regardless of the ice surface (small ice in 2004 didn't help the same squad not suck) and 2014 where the US had one of the best teams but lost a tight semifinal to the Canadians. So the notion that Americans can't succeed on big ice is a fallacy in the exact same way that it was when people claimed Canada couldn't win in Sochi because of the ice size. All Canada did was have the most dominant performance in professional Olympic hockey history. Why? Because they had the best team, whereas as in 2006 they had a pretty crap one.

 

[Get North]

The US has won u18 u20 and IIHF world medals on big ice. They also own silver in 2002 on a larger ice surface. There are three data points in the Olympics, one freak collapse in 1998, a bad team in 2006 regardless of the ice surface (small ice in 2004 didn't help the same squad not suck) and 2014 where the US had one of the best teams but lost a tight semifinal to the Canadians. So the notion that Americans can't succeed on big ice is a fallacy in the exact same way that it was when people claimed Canada couldn't win in Sochi because of the ice size. All Canada did was have the most dominant performance in professional Olympic hockey history. Why? Because they had the best team, whereas as in 2006 they had a pretty crap one.

The junior tournaments are irrelevant to the Olympics. Pavelski, Backes, Wheeler, Kessel, Stastny are forwards at the 2014 Olympics who weren't involved in international play at the World Juniors.

USA is simply not good on the bigger ice, the results say so. You can cover it up with bad squads, barely lost, etc but the fact is since 1972, USA has never won a medal on big ice at the Olympics.

Canada did not just win Gold at Sochi because they just iced the best team, they got Ralph Krueger for help on international ice, I'm sure that helped a ton for the gold medal result. I wouldn't be surprised to see USA do the same thing at 2018.

Also, the USA vs Canada game at the 2014 Olympics wasn't tight other than the result. USA couldn't get anything done offensively and Canada looked alot better than the Americans. I don't think they were all that close to a gold medal game.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

No they said the team didn't have the skill up front to score. The forward group was underrated by most of the so called experts who thought the US team would do well just to get bronze. The critique is returning for 2018.

U.S. Hockey just announced that the 2018 U.S. Men's Hockey Team will be sponsored by "Flomax". For his part, Max Pacioretty has agreed to change his name to Max Prostate. The players will be given a large (lifetime) supply so they can get thru a 60 minute game.

It's not easy getting old. Believe me, I know.

 

[Xokkeu]

The junior tournaments are irrelevant to the Olympics. Pavelski, Backes, Wheeler, Kessel, Stastny are forwards at the 2014 Olympics who weren't involved in international play at the World Juniors.

USA is simply not good on the bigger ice, the results say so. You can cover it up with bad squads, barely lost, etc but the fact is since 1972, USA has never won a medal on big ice at the Olympics.

Canada did not just win Gold at Sochi because they just iced the best team, they got Ralph Krueger for help on international ice, I'm sure that helped a ton for the gold medal result. I wouldn't be surprised to see USA do the same thing at 2018.

Also, the USA vs Canada game at the 2014 Olympics wasn't tight other than the result. USA couldn't get anything done offensively and Canada looked alot better than the Americans. I don't think they were all that close to a gold medal game.

1980 was on Olympic size ice. You erroneous facts and cherry picking of which results do and don't matter, the data points don't provide a convincing argument on USA hockey's ability on ice size.