Post-Game Talk: End of the Shanascam? | Leafs Blown Out at Home Again

[WilliamInLondon]

I think that if he wins the Cup with the Oilers he'll re-sign to win more, personally.

I think the ship sailed when Drai re-signed. Oh well. We have our own supersta-sorry couldn't type that without laughing.

Yeah, fair point. Especially since they're really close off the ice.

This is literally the only upside or hope left to the team. I don't see any form of internal growth aside from multiple lobotomies that will change their current trajectory of perennial 1st round fodder.

 

[QJo]

They should have boo'd louder, most of them had the good sense to just leave that travesty of a performance.

Fans like you who demand zero accountability and sit there like idiots waving their blue and white pom poms are the reason this franchise is the laughing stock of the NHL.

Don't worry though, they just need to run it back a few more times and they'll make it out of the 2nd round for you. Probably in 2075 if you're still around.

.

Throwing a toddler tantrum and tossing your belongings to disrupt everything around you is certainly attention grabbing, I just don't know if it 'demands accountability'.

 

[Racer88]

Your coach has no answers. What a let down. Unacceptable from Berube.

I think he knows the answer but doesn’t want to stage them all on TV.
The players have no heart, grit or intensity and simply refuse to put in the effort when the games are tough

 

[Racer88]

So 3 coaches with no answers. It’s obvious whether some would like to admit the problem with this team.

Yup. Multiple coaches, GM’s and versions of the supporting cast and same dam thing every year .
Shanny and the core 5 are the common denominator

 

[redgrant]

Dealt? He's a free agent, the Leafs are getting nothing back but cap room.

Top 5 winger at what? Disappearing in games 5-7 every year?

Leafs still hold his rights they can trade, so I agree next to nothing back.

 

[ruaware41]

This could all be true about Matthews' parents, but it also probably applies to 95% of North American NHLers. I went to high school with a bunch of OHL players, several of whom played 1000+ games in the NHL. Most of them come from decent families and don't play the sport as the only viable path out of their family's socioeconomic conditions (e.g. boxing, basketball, baseball, etc.).

The sheer cost of hockey equipment, ice rink, facilities, etc. sets a pretty strong barrier to cater the game towards certain socioeconomic and demographic groups.

I'd say it's even simpler in that it just comes down to personalities. To paraphrase Teddy Atlas from boxing, "These guys didn't figure out how to win. They didn't have the resolve to really dig deep into dark, murky waters within themselves and find an extra gear. They couldn't find a way to exorcise their individual and collective demons." It's ok, sometimes your learned life experiences help you with that, sometimes they don't because it's simply your disposition and inner character. The problem is that the core players, just don't have it. Treliving even tried to literally import winners in OEL, Stolarz, Lorentz, and hoped it'd rub off. Or sign sandpaper guys in Tanev and McCabe to cover up these holes, but it didn't work.*

It's just the way it is, and I think the team needs to move on from as many of these players as quickly as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if Marner, Tavares, and Rielly (and Matthews, Nylander) find future success in organisations in which these cultures are more well-established, but they must go.

Lastly, if you look at Toronto teams over the past 30 years, here's a quick dichotomy of guys who "have it" versus those who don't. It doesn't even mean that they've won the championship or are alpha dogs versus just having that personal drive and extreme determination to win. It's not something that you can measure beyond an "eye test" and gut instinct.

Has It

• MLB: Roy Halladay; Jose Bautista; Roberto Alomar; Chris Carpenter
• NHL: Doug Gilmour; Ed Belfour; Gary Roberts;
• NBA: Kawhi Leonard; Pascal Siakam

Doesn't Have It

• MLB: Vlad Guerrero Jr (jury still out, but trending quickly in one direction);
• NHL: Core Four; Phil Kessel; Jack Campbell;
• NBA: Vince Carter; Andrea Bargnani

p.s. Nate MacKinnon "has it". As does Gabriel Landeskog. As does Mikko Rantanen lol...on-ice talent aside, had that Marner for Rantanen trade actually gone through, it's not a falsifiable claim, but I'm 99% sure the Leafs would be playing Carolina right now. You don't need a team full of it factor guys - but you do need at least one, and it must be a key player.

Honestly I agree with you about it being a personality related thing but not a socio-economic background thing which isn't what I was alluding to. I mean hockey players in the NHL come across as the least "entitled" in how they act and at least portray themselves compared to other sports despite coming from more wealth. Hockey is a rich man's sport where players get appreciated for playing as blue collar as possible. Basketball is less a rich man's sport but there's more scope to play less blue collar (more Marner offensively/Nylander defensively like) and succeed at the highest level (NBA).

Guys like MacKinnon like you said and others like Toews Rants Briere Crosby etc all have/had it, but most of them also come from wealth.

I think a lot of it is just the parent's personalities and approach towards the child more than the family background. It's very common even in middle class families for one child to be given the golden child treatment, and one the black sheep treatment and they have vastly different personalities, with the golden child exhibiting behaviour and energy that seems to resonate with Matthews while the black sheep child has a vastly different personality. Heck I have a close friend who's father came from a dirt poor family in a war zone and was an orphan before he was even double digits in age who my friend tells me told him that he was extremely spoiled and privileged by his mother compared to his siblings. And he turned out being very abusive to his kids growing up and displayed lots of narcissistic traits while his uncle who also went through the same thing was a very good dad to his kids.

All that aside, I like that quote by Teddy. I think people have it in them to dig deep and rise above their demons if they really wanted to but it's not easy, and not something most people are willing to try to do.

You're also right that you don't need a team of players who have it. I mean Kessel has Stanley Cups playing on a well insulated team. So does Seguin. You need someone to lead though who has it and is the best player on the team or one of the best at least.

 

[Racer88]

Berube has a terrible playoff record, the one good year he had was when he had the least amount of influence on the team (half season).

He isn't some amazing coach, I figured most people would have realized this by now.

I’m indifferent on Berube but we cannot blame him for the debacle the leafs team has become. This is solely on the core 5. Different coaches and different GM’s and this mess is what we get from those players

 

[Peiskos]

Get rid of Marner, heartless clown. Not even becoming a father puts a fire under him like other players. Bum.

 

[Racer88]

Does anyone else find it somewhat comical that Matthews in the post-game press conference and Marner during the game were calling out their teammates all while THEY were the passengers? Like seriouly, how many eye rolls did Marners tirade get... more than one I am guessing.

It just shows you how delusional this 2 are

 

[tucson83]

Yup. Multiple coaches, GM’s and versions of the supporting cast and same dam thing every year .
Shanny and the core 5 are the common denominator

flyers fan coming in peace, yeah the leafs just dont have enough in the bottom 6, that's what is holding this team back and overpaying the top forwards is the big issue. they have to retool their roster to add cheaper talent in bottom 6.

marner cant be resigned, i would listen offers on nylander and morgan rielly, bring back jt if it's on a good deal not overpay. just running it back again isnt going to do it, they just dont have enough.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

Honestly I agree with you about it being a personality related thing but not a socio-economic background thing which isn't what I was alluding to. I mean hockey players in the NHL come across as the least "entitled" in how they act and at least portray themselves compared to other sports despite coming from more wealth. Hockey is a rich man's sport where players get appreciated for playing as blue collar as possible. Basketball is less a rich man's sport but there's more scope to play less blue collar (more Marner offensively/Nylander defensively like) and succeed at the highest level (NBA).

Guys like MacKinnon like you said and others like Toews Rants Briere Crosby etc all have/had it, but most of them also come from wealth.

I think a lot of it is just the parent's personalities and approach towards the child more than the family background. It's very common even in middle class families for one child to be given the golden child treatment, and one the black sheep treatment and they have vastly different personalities, with the golden child exhibiting behaviour and energy that seems to resonate with Matthews while the black sheep child has a vastly different personality. Heck I have a close friend who's father came from a dirt poor family in a war zone and was an orphan before he was even double digits in age who my friend tells me told him that he was extremely spoiled and privileged by his mother compared to his siblings. And he turned out being very abusive to his kids growing up and displayed lots of narcissistic traits while his uncle who also went through the same thing was a very good dad to his kids.

All that aside, I like that quote by Teddy. I think people have it in them to dig deep and rise above their demons if they really wanted to but it's not easy, and not something most people are willing to try to do.

You're also right that you don't need a team of players who have it. I mean Kessel has Stanley Cups playing on a well insulated team. So does Seguin. You need someone to lead though who has it and is the best player on the team or one of the best at least.

Nothing to add other than that I agree with everything that you said, especially the bolded part. Genetics, disposition, and inherent characteristics are a factor, but the things that you can control are environmental and based on parental upbringing. We don't know the details of the guy's upbringing, but it was pretty telling in all of his interviews (including last night) that he talks about the team's shortcomings or some sort of external variables rather than explicitly stating "I need to play better", or "I'm failing and must set an example" or "I gave it my best, but I wasn't good enough and that's my fault". That in itself is concerning - you would expect leaders to show personal ownership for collective shortcomings, but in this case, when it really your own PERSONAL shortcomings and failures that led to a negative outcome...at least own that shit lol. I think if Marner and Matthews both stated that explicitly last night, everyone would still be pissed, but at least more forgiving.

 

[Racer88]

I think the rest of the league recognizes their talent. But as fans we deserve more than what we’ve gotten in the 9 years with them. So it’s hard for us to not be upset.

There is no doubt they are talented individuals when the want to be. The problem is they don’t alway want to give the sacrifices needed to overcome hard games. Plus the fact that they are delusional enough to convince themselves they are giving it all the have got.
Until they can look in the mirror and honestly asses their flaws they will never change and I don’t ever see them doing that

 

[ruaware41]

It just shows you how delusional this 2 are

It sucks the good guy hockey veterans at this level are too chill and keep it too low key to call stuff like this out (guys like oel and tanev) which is probably a repeated occurrence but it would be nice to have a Byfuglien like personality that would put them in their place sometimes. How can you blame passengers when you have 1 or two goals all series as the captain paid 13 million plus?

 

[thewave]

Vibes around this team are so toxic. Not that I blame them, I just don't know how you fix it without blowing it up to hell - which they can't even do realistically in account of not owning their 1sts in the next three drafts. Just dreadful stuff

When you keep a player that is getting roasted in the media since 2019 and don't go deep in the playoffs. Dubas, how many years?

It could be a meme. The management is just dumb. Marner should have been moved on from long ago.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I have to agree with Maurice here.

I think the leafs showed some growth this year.

It would be a mistake for you guys to run Mitchy out of town, out of anger and panic.

I know this sounds like insanity, but I'd just run it back.

Take your trolling somewhere else.

Everyone here sees through it, and you yourself know you're bullshitting.

 

[ruaware41]

Nothing to add other than that I agree with everything that you said, especially the bolded part. Genetics, disposition, and inherent characteristics are a factor, but the things that you can control are environmental and based on parental upbringing. We don't know the details of the guy's upbringing, but it was pretty telling in all of his interviews (including last night) that he talks about the team's shortcomings or some sort of external variables rather than explicitly stating "I need to play better", or "I'm failing and must set an example" or "I gave it my best, but I wasn't good enough and that's my fault". That in itself is concerning - you would expect leaders to show personal ownership for collective shortcomings, but in this case, when it really your own PERSONAL shortcomings and failures that led to a negative outcome...at least own that shit lol. I think if Marner and Matthews both stated that explicitly last night, everyone would still be pissed, but at least more forgiving.

Exactly, parental upbringing I guess is what they can control and working on those demons through self introspection and work is what you control after in some cases. I would guess the Leafs would focus more on this kind of stuff with the players with how deep their pockets go but I guess we don't know all the details though these media interactions do allude to the idea it's not taken very seriously. I've seen Matthews deflect accountability repeatedly throughout his career. It's hard to change when you won't even own up to it. He was trying hard in game 7 but definitely not all series which doesn't give him justification to complain about passengers lol.

Maybe unrelated but Yzerman is an example of a player who did a complete 180 in how he played the game at 30 years old and was immensely appreciated for it. I doubt we see some paradigm shift like that from our core 4.

 

[Peasy]

Take your trolling somewhere else.

Everyone here sees through it, and you yourself know you're bullshitting.

Plus hes a habs fan lol

 

[centipede2233]

I think he knows the answer but doesn’t want to stage them all on TV.
The players have no heart, grit or intensity and simply refuse to put in the effort when the games are tough

Yea he def knows the answer but he gets paid millions of dollars and throwing players under the bus is like throwing his bosses under the boss. So he goes with the generic “I don’t have an answer”. Now ask him 8 beers deep and terminated and off the books from the leafs, he would share his real thoughts haha.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Plus hes a habs fan lol

That fact was not lost on me, I can assure you.

 

[New User Name]

I'm convinced Florida was playing us. Those kind words by Maurice and Marchand were BS.

Shanahan should be gone. Funny how he never wanted to sign in Toronto (though to be fair many don't want to) when he was free agent. But ya jump at the chance to be President.

I guess I can't blame players for not wanting to play in Toronto or for that matter Canada.

What with taxes, weather, being in the spotlight, poor management decisions (Canadian teams seem to be at the top for horrible decisions) or whatever the reason, it doesn't look promising for us.

We had Marner refuse a trade, we had the Muskoka five screw us, players have Canadian teams on their no trade lists.

Just a few years ago we allowed JVR, Uncle Leo and a few others leave in free agency when we should have traded them at the trade deadline. Everyone knew we weren't going anywhere in the playoffs that year.

We trade for players and seem to always pay a premium. Laughton, a first, Carlo a 1st and Minten this year.

The only thing I know is Shanny has to go.

 

[LeafGrief]

You know what's f***ing funny? As I sit here reading these posts, here's what I see.

Of course this team officially sponsors viagra deliveries. Not only are they completely impotent on their own, but they're such a disaster there is surely nothing else under the sun that made sure most of Leafs nation went to bed far to grumpy to even notice our wives were in the same room.

Thanks to the women in our lives for putting up with our annual pouty bullshit.

 

[Nineteen67]

You know what's f***ing funny? As I sit here reading these posts, here's what I see.View attachment 1038841

Of course this team officially sponsors viagra deliveries. Not only are they completely impotent on their own, but they're such a disaster there is surely nothing else under the sun that made sure most of Leafs nation went to bed far to grumpy to even notice our wives were in the same room.

Thanks to the women in our lives for putting up with our annual pouty bullshit.

Those ads are tailored to the user……

 

[LeafGrief]

Those ads are tailored to the user……

I am 34 years old and in good health, thank you very much.

 

[Trapper]

Full passenger quote for context.

Still sounds bad overall to me.

A good Captain takes the blame.
This is a bad Captain.
It would be like Captain Smith blaming the stokers as the Titanic sank.
Not the guy I want in a leadership role.

 

[francis246]

You know what's f***ing funny? As I sit here reading these posts, here's what I see.View attachment 1038841

Of course this team officially sponsors viagra deliveries. Not only are they completely impotent on their own, but they're such a disaster there is surely nothing else under the sun that made sure most of Leafs nation went to bed far to grumpy to even notice our wives were in the same room.

Thanks to the women in our lives for putting up with our annual pouty bullshit.

Lmaooo ads are specific to users my friend! I have not seen that based on your google search history and other factors haha.