Player Discussion Emil Heineman Part 2 Get Well Soon Edition

[Tyson]

Did we give up on Dach? If Dach is healthy next season and plays with Demidov and Heineman that could be a really good line. Otherwise we need Crosby.

I think the writing is on the wall for Dach. I hope he rebounds but I highly doubt it.

 

[BLONG7]

I think the writing is on the wall for Dach. I hope he rebounds but I highly doubt it.

I think the writing is on the wall for Dach. I hope he rebounds but I highly doubt it.

We certainly can't wait or count on Dach anylonger.............I am a fan of his, and think he does possess the talent, but can't stay healthy. They have to get a stopgap 2 yr 2C to help Nick drive some offence and give Demidov a real 2C at the same time.

If Dach plays himself into the top 6 next season it could be on the wing, or down the middle, but no way they count on this happening, because in 3 seasons, it hasn't.

 

[Sorinth]

Did we give up on Dach? If Dach is healthy next season and plays with Demidov and Heineman that could be a really good line. Otherwise we need Crosby.

From what was said by Hughes and Gorton they haven't given up on Dach but they won't just hand him a spot. He's going to have to come to camp and earn whatever spot he can. They want to get a good 2C but so does everybody so for Dach to be used there we have to strike out in trades/FA, and then Dach has to outperform the other options at camp.

 

[JianYang]

Did we give up on Dach? If Dach is healthy next season and plays with Demidov and Heineman that could be a really good line. Otherwise we need Crosby.

He's on his last life, and unlike other years, hes no longer penciled into a particular top 6 spot.

To answer your question, dach hasn't been "given up" on, but it's certainly an uphill battle at this point.

One more season like last year will definitely nail the coffin shut though.

 

[Sorinth]

His IQ is his weakest attribute, it is not terrible but with his plus size, strength, speed, effort and shot it is the bottleneck that stands between him being a bottom six or a top six forward.

Plenty of top-6 players aren't high IQ players, the biggest bottleneck will be opportunity.

That said Heineman needs to apply his size & strength better/more consistently which I would expect that to come with experience/health/confidence.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Plenty of top-6 players aren't high IQ players, the biggest bottleneck will be opportunity.

That said Heineman needs to apply his size & strength better/more consistently which I would expect that to come with experience/health/confidence.

IQ is the only commonality among all top players. Every consensus NHL 2nd liner has good hockey IQ......it is literally impossible to play the game at that level without it

There are certainly players who make appearances on 2nd lines as a mucker who may not have average hockey IQ as well as teams that have shallow lineups who may have players playing above their heads.

If Josh Anderson had average hockey IQ he would be a stud power forward and perennial All Star. He was miscast as a 2nd liner but has settled into a very effective but simple game on the 3rd line.

We are clearly dealing with semantics here as your idea of "high IQ" may have a different threshold than my definition as I am referring to any player that does not have low IQ in a zero sum compatison.

If you are simply stating that there are top six players who have average IQ and get by on either physicality or puck skills then we are in agreement. I would just argue that these players might not be 2nd liners on many teams or might not be good enough to even make certain teams depending on how one dimensional they might be.

Heineman's issue has always been that he doesn't process the game fast enough to play in the top six and therefore is more effective at playing a very north/south simple version of the game that is more suited to bottom six minutes much in the same way that Anderson is now deployed.

 

[tooji]

Did we give up on Dach? If Dach is healthy next season and plays with Demidov and Heineman that could be a really good line. Otherwise we need Crosby.

I don’t think we can rely on him to be a top 6 piece. I think he can still carve out a role in the bottom 6 if he can stay healthy, with opportunities to jump into top 6 in a pinch.

 

[Sorinth]

IQ is the only commonality among all top players. Every consensus NHL 2nd liner has good hockey IQ......it is literally impossible to play the game at that level without it

There are certainly players who make appearances on 2nd lines as a mucker who may not have average hockey IQ as well as teams that have shallow lineups who may have players playing above their heads.

If Josh Anderson had average hockey IQ he would be a stud power forward and perennial All Star. He was miscast as a 2nd liner but has settled into a very effective but simple game on the 3rd line.

We are clearly dealing with semantics here as your idea of "high IQ" may have a different threshold than my definition as I am referring to any player that does not have low IQ in a zero sum compatison.

If you are simply stating that there are top six players who have average IQ and get by on either physicality or puck skills then we are in agreement. I would just argue that these players might not be 2nd liners on many teams or might not be good enough to even make certain teams depending on how one dimensional they might be.

Heineman's issue has always been that he doesn't process the game fast enough to play in the top six and therefore is more effective at playing a very north/south simple version of the game that is more suited to bottom six minutes much in the same way that Anderson is now deployed.

I very doubt Anderson becomes an All Star with average hockey IQ. But as an example someone like Gallagher has a pretty average hockey IQ that's comparable to Heineman, and was a quality top-6 player and not just because of shallow lineups.

I would also point out that role tends to set perception of hockey iq. I don't think anyone would have said Lehkonen was a high iq player while he was playing for us. But now that he's shown it off in Colorado they'll say of course it was always there. Playing on a 4th line where expectations from the coach is to provide energy/forechecking will limit how much you can show off your hockey iq. So I doubt we have a very good evaluation of Heineman's iq in the first place.

 

[MasterD]

Did we give up on Dach? If Dach is healthy next season and plays with Demidov and Heineman that could be a really good line. Otherwise we need Crosby.

Personally haven't given up on Dach, but we certainly can't count on him at this point.

And from what he's shown so far, he's a much better RW than C.

 

[MasterD]

I very doubt Anderson becomes an All Star with average hockey IQ. But as an example someone like Gallagher has a pretty average hockey IQ that's comparable to Heineman, and was a quality top-6 player and not just because of shallow lineups.

I would also point out that role tends to set perception of hockey iq. I don't think anyone would have said Lehkonen was a high iq player while he was playing for us. But now that he's shown it off in Colorado they'll say of course it was always there. Playing on a 4th line where expectations from the coach is to provide energy/forechecking will limit how much you can show off your hockey iq. So I doubt we have a very good evaluation of Heineman's iq in the first place.

I disagree. It was always obvious Lehkonen has very good hockey IQ. It wasn't obvious his offense was going to pan out. His shot accuracy in particular was very poor, he always shot straight at the goalie's chest.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I very doubt Anderson becomes an All Star with average hockey IQ. But as an example someone like Gallagher has a pretty average hockey IQ that's comparable to Heineman, and was a quality top-6 player and not just because of shallow lineups.

I would also point out that role tends to set perception of hockey iq. I don't think anyone would have said Lehkonen was a high iq player while he was playing for us. But now that he's shown it off in Colorado they'll say of course it was always there. Playing on a 4th line where expectations from the coach is to provide energy/forechecking will limit how much you can show off your hockey iq. So I doubt we have a very good evaluation of Heineman's iq in the first place.

I always said that Lehkonen was a high IQ player as are all players who read the game defensively as well as he does and as I did with Danault as well. Gallagher has decent IQ but chooses to play within the brand that he has established and that has worked for him which is a style that does not exhibit high level vision. He always made up for his lack of foot speed with his IQ that allowed him to anticipate the play before his opponents but he is old school and believes in always getting the puck to the net and doesn't look for options by choice not because he doesn't see them. People consistently confuse IQ with vision whereas the former is simply the understanding of how the play evolves and an understanding of not only systems but why systems work. Vision is the creative manifestation of IQ that will present itself with players with elevated puck skills who are able to actually execute plays that are more abstract.

Anderson absolutely is at least a legitimate 2nd liner with average or better IQ. If he had better IQ he would likely have developed better hands due to having the ability to visualize the play as it unfolds and therefore developing his hands to exploit it. Instead he is more reactionary as he doesn't anticipate well enough and never learned how to break down triangles and manipulate the puck in tight or away from his skates.

I just laugh at fans who criticized the Lehkonen's and Danault's etc as they don't remotely understand the game and whose volume was disproportionately loud in relation to their knowledge.

 

[The Great Weal]

If we could land a Crosby for our second line, I would love to see Heineman on the wing with Demidov.

Not entirely directed at you, but I'll never understand why so many Habs fans think a struggling player in a far less important role would do a fine job in a key role the very next season.

Everyone was saying how the loss of Kirby Dach gave us Demidov and that he will come back as the 2nd line center, then he shat to bed and some people still think he can be on the 1st line wing or 2nd line center again.

Kapanen was one of the softest players in recent Habs history, has shown that he's currently not even an NHL caliber player, yet some are saying he's fine as a Dvorak replacement (and even some think he can do an ok job as the 2C).

Heineman was the least productive 4th liner in the league since coming back from injury. He was tried on the 2nd line but did a terrible job because he doesn't have the offensive abilities for a 4th liner at that point let alone as a 2nd liner. Why would he all of a sudden do a good job on the 2nd line when he couldn't produce whatsoever on the 4th line? Now maybe if he plays like how he did at the start of last year and stays consistent you can give him a shot, but nobody would ever put him on the 2nd line to start the year.

The only unproven NHLer that can have a key role is Demidov just because of his pedigree and we can't even expect him to lead the 2nd line yet. We need to have proven NHLers play in a role where they have recently shown they can perform well in that role if we want to take the next step.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Not entirely directed at you, but I'll never understand why so many Habs fans think a struggling player in a far less important role would do a fine job in a key role the very next season.

Everyone was saying how the loss of Kirby Dach gave us Demidov and that he will come back as the 2nd line center, then he shat to bed and some people still think he can be on the 1st line wing or 2nd line center again.

Kapanen was one of the softest players in recent Habs history, has shown that he's currently not even an NHL caliber player, yet some are saying he's fine as a Dvorak replacement (and even some think he can do an ok job as the 2C).

Heineman was the least productive 4th liner in the league since coming back from injury. He was tried on the 2nd line but did a terrible job because he doesn't have the offensive abilities for a 4th liner at that point let alone as a 2nd liner. Why would he all of a sudden do a good job on the 2nd line when he couldn't produce whatsoever on the 4th line? Now maybe if he plays like how he did at the start of last year and stays consistent you can give him a shot, but nobody would ever put him on the 2nd line to start the year.

The only unproven NHLer that can have a key role is Demidov just because of his pedigree and we can't even expect him to lead the 2nd line yet. We need to have proven NHLers play in a role where they have recently shown they can perform well in that role if we want to take the next step.

It's a matter of meshing. Heineman did not produce playing with a cooled-off Evans and an injured Armia. I think Heineman would excel with Demidov and Crosby or another experienced high IQ center. He already looked decent with Demidov and Newhook, but upgrade the center and it's probably a whole new level.

It would also drive other teams nuts to have to deal with three lines that have offensive threats on them, plus Gally and Anderson on the "fourth" line.

 

[The Great Weal]

It's a matter of meshing. Heineman did not produce playing with a cooled-off Evans and an injured Armia. I think Heineman would excel with Demidov and Crosby or another experienced high IQ center. He already looked decent with Demidov and Newhook, but upgrade the center and it's probably a whole new level.

It would also drive other teams nuts to have to deal with three lines that have offensive threats on them, plus Gally and Anderson on the "fourth" line.

We can blame Evans and Armia who were clearly not as good as they should have been too, but Heineman was far worse than both of them.

He most definitely did not look “decent” with Demidov and Newhook, he was really bad and didn’t do anything what a top 6 player should do. Marty had to pull him off the top 6 because of how bad he was offensively.

His injury and poor linemates don’t excuse that catastrophic production since coming back. I don’t think people quite understand how horrible his production was, it was nonexistent and inexcusable.

It’s an insult to both Anderson and Gallagher to shift them to the 4th line so the guy with like 2 points in 26 games can play on the 2nd line. Heineman needs to figure out consistency before putting him on the 2nd line.

 

[BaseballCoach]

We can blame Evans and Armia who were clearly not as good as they should have been too, but Heineman was far worse than both of them.

He most definitely did not look “decent” with Demidov and Newhook, he was really bad and didn’t do anything what a top 6 player should do. Marty had to pull him off the top 6 because of how bad he was offensively.

His injury and poor linemates don’t excuse that catastrophic production since coming back. I don’t think people quite understand how horrible his production was, it was nonexistent and inexcusable.

It’s an insult to both Anderson and Gallagher to shift them to the 4th line so the guy with like 2 points in 26 games can play on the 2nd line. Heineman needs to figure out consistency before putting him on the 2nd line.

Anderson and Gallagher should stay together. If Heineman is outperformed by Laine, then make Laine the 2LW, and put Dach, Newhook and Heineman together, or sit any of the forwards who is playing worse than Kapanen.

 

[The Great Weal]

Anderson and Gallagher should stay together. If Heineman is outperformed by Laine, then make Laine the 2LW, and put Dach, Newhook and Heineman together, or sit any of the forwards who is playing worse than Kapanen.

Emil Heineman has 2 points in his last 30 games. No NHL team would play him on the 2nd line.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Emil Heineman has 2 points in his last 30 games. No NHL team would play him on the 2nd line.

He would have to show in the preseason or in practices that he can mesh with good players. There will be opportunities and it will be up to him to seize them. If he can't, then someone else will be in that role. I don't care, whatever is best for the team, not any one player.

But if Heineman COULD handle it, the team would probably be in great shape.

 

[The Great Weal]

He would have to show in the preseason or in practices that he can mesh with good players. There will be opportunities and it will be up to him to seize them. If he can't, then someone else will be in that role. I don't care, whatever is best for the team, not any one player.

But if Heineman COULD handle it, the team would probably be in great shape.

Meshing doesn't matter when you're on pace for 5 points in an 82 games season as a top 6 forward. He needs to prove himself on the 4th line again for an extended period, not in preseason or practices.

 

[Rob Sense]

Which is why the only way Crosby would be of interest is if he wanted a trade and only to Montreal. In which case they aren't getting great assets for him.
And Ryder, Halak and a 2nd was a very good proposal. It may not have seemed so at the time but it turned out to be a solid package.

what exactly did Ryder, Halak and a 2nd bring to Habs? Been so long I only remembered what we paid and not what we received...kind of like taxes!

 

[26Mats]

Emil Heineman has 2 points in his last 30 games. No NHL team would play him on the 2nd line.

I look forward to seeing Heineman play with not 2/3 of a line, as he did in the final 30 games with Armia playing with a broken hand.

I have Dach slotting in the Armia spot on that line to start the year...

 

[The Great Weal]

I look forward to seeing Heineman play with not 2/3 of a line, as he did in the final 30 games with Armia playing with a broken hand.

I have Dach slotting in the Armia spot on that line to start the year...

He was the worst player on his line. An NHLer should have more than a 5 point pace in an 82 game season. He’s got nobody to blame but himself, he was awful.

 

[26Mats]

He would have to show in the preseason or in practices that he can mesh with good players. There will be opportunities and it will be up to him to seize them. If he can't, then someone else will be in that role. I don't care, whatever is best for the team, not any one player.

But if Heineman COULD handle it, the team would probably be in great shape.

I don’t see Heineman in the top 6 any time soon. But, I hope he can produce from the bottom six like he did before he went down.

 

[Guess]

From what was said by Hughes and Gorton they haven't given up on Dach but they won't just hand him a spot. He's going to have to come to camp and earn whatever spot he can. They want to get a good 2C but so does everybody so for Dach to be used there we have to strike out in trades/FA, and then Dach has to outperform the other options at camp.

The problem is that we have no good 2C options available in the system (that are not a long ways away, Hage might fill that role in a few seasons), we have no choice to trade/sign for one, otherwise we have to pray Dach can fill it.

 

[Sorinth]

The problem is that we have no good 2C options available in the system (that are not a long ways away, Hage might fill that role in a few seasons), we have no choice to trade/sign for one, otherwise we have to pray Dach can fill it.

Or Newhook, or Demidov, even Laine has experience at C where he was productive, Beck/Kapanen weren't ready this year, but nobody knows whether they will take a big step in the offseason the way many young players do. Evans also isn't a terrible option if we either grab a big name winger or Laine rebounds to what he can be.

Dach has gone from being the default option to just one of many options all of which have reasons to believe and reasons not to believe they would do well.

 

[Guess]

Or Newhook, or Demidov, even Laine has experience at C where he was productive, Beck/Kapanen weren't ready this year, but nobody knows whether they will take a big step in the offseason the way many young players do. Evans also isn't a terrible option if we either grab a big name winger or Laine rebounds to what he can be.

Dach has gone from being the default option to just one of many options all of which have reasons to believe and reasons not to believe they would do well.

Those are options but they're also really not what we want to end up with, another season of rolling the dice to hope soemthing sticks.

That being said, I'd rather do that then pick up someone that's not a great fit, it's better to be patient and get what you really want, I'm sure management will keep that approach.