EMERGENCY FAN MEETING: The Senators are Soft, Broken, and Have No Identity - Here's My Fix. Share Yours.

[Beech]

@Yak
Yakster!!! you seem to have the dial set at 11.

Why the anguish?

Every indication has been..has, and I mean since about 2020/2021 that this is a failed rebuild.

we have/had Buffalo, Detroit, Montreal, San Jose, Anaheim, Columbus, Utah/Arizona as proof of rebuild failure the last 10 years. Why did we think that we were different?

Now add, the Maple Leafs 2004-2015, until Mathews came in
The Oiler 2004-2015, until McDavid came in
The Canucks, 2011-2022, until Hughes matured (along with a few team-mates).

There is a solid 2-4 more years of suffering ahead of this team. And possibly 4 or more if no HOf, or HOF lite, comes in..

We are following a script. So far everything that has happened has been to script. AND if the script is to play out, no change will occur until 1-3 HOF or near HOFs get here, or emerge.

Since 2000.. The following rebuilds have worked and here is a large part of the reason.
1) Pittsburg.. Hello Crosby and Malkin and Letang
2) Chicago.. Hello Toews,, Kane and Keith... and later, Hossa
3) Tampa bay..Hello Stamkos, Hedmann and Kucherov
4) Colorado, Hello Lang, MacKinnon, Makar

5) Edmonton (No cup) Hello McDavid, Draisital
6) Toronto (No Cup, Thank God), Hello Mathews, Marner, Nylander.

All took a long time, all were 2-3 rebuilds rolled into one. All needed an HOFer

We are Buffalo, Detroit, Montreal, SJ, Anaheim, Utah... And there is little that can be done.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Bad roster construction means you have too main of the same type of players. In Ottawa's case they have a bunch of reasonably skilled but not hard nosed tenacious players. Sanderson, Chabot and Zub are those guys on D and Batherson, Norris, Pinto and are those on the forward group. Giroux also falls into this group.
At draft/trade time the team probably thought those guys would turn out different then what they have turned in to.

Ok...

We already had Chabot and Zub. Should we have passed on Sanderson for someone else at 5OA in 2020?
We got Batherson in the 4th round, who should we have taken instead?
We returned Norris in the Karlsson trade, who was reasonably available to get instead?
Giroux was a free agent signing, who could that money have gone to instead that would have given us a better player?
Go to the 2019 draft, look at the 2nd round selections, and tell me who was the obvious choice to take instead of Pinto.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Or should we have traded some/many of these players while they were still developing? It's not really a trick question. If you say the roster was constructed badly, you're saying there were very obvious alternatives to some or many of the 8 guys that are locked in long term. Let's hear your reasoning.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Ok.

But when someone says the roster was constructed badly it implies we could have done better with either a) a draft selection, b) a player targeted in a trade or c) a free agent signing. I've provided the list of names and I'm waiting for someone to explain to me how we could have improved upon the Sanderson draft pick? The Tkachuk draft pick? Returning Norris in the trade for Karlsson? Signing Zub in free agency? Etc.

These are the guys signed long term. We know how they got here, how could we have done better for each one? Cause if multiple people are saying the roster wasn't constructed well, it means we missed on a bunch of the guys listed. I'm eager to hear how we could have improved upon multiple players.

You could make different personnel decisions after they're drafted. Maybe play harder ball on contracts and keep them more easily movable and enticing without an 8x8 attached. Some of it is unavoidable with injuries. Like, Zub is a good player and don't mean to imply he's not, but he is out too often. Has applied to others. I'm not going to pretend to have the answers specifically on names, but surely there were avenues to create a more balanced team via trades after the fact. Even smaller things like keeping DeMelo for Chabot (ftr I supported letting him walk at the time). They also would have an easier time pivoting their core in general if they hadn't left themselves completely barren in Belleville and beyond. It's pretty incredible how thin they are for an organization that rebuilt. Like, literally almost nothing of consequence coming other than maybe Yak who was just drafted. They also lack that offensive driver from the backend that appears to be a big hole that is unfillable internally atm. Can see why a guy like Addison was tried in camp or the Karlsson talks come back up, it's a big hole.

 

[DueDiligence]

Who did the Devils draft that people are afraid of going into a corner with?

They acquired most of those players. We continue to be too reliant on the draft for all the answers.

Any way you acquire the right players is fine by me. Draft, trade, sign FAs or clone.
Thing is the Sens have a finesse D that can't score and can't hit. And a forwrad group that outside the 1st line are a bunch of figure skaters.

 

[Micklebot]

They have to win 6 in a row to get in the mix. It's not possible. They done.

What if they win 3 lose one then win 3?

Or how about this since we can't seem to win 3 straight this year,

What if we win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, then lose 1. Would that get us in the mix?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

What if they win 3 lose one then win 3?

Or how about this since we can't seem to win 3 straight this year,

What if we win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, then lose 1. Would that get us in the mix?

I don't think it's in the cards, but with Ullmark finally playing well, if that continues and they get back to their play earlier in the season, no reason they can't win some games. As bad as they've looked, all these guys like Amadio, Perron, Pinto, Grieg, etc. having such down years goes heavily against their resumes, so you have to think it levels out eventually even if it's too late and fruitless.

 

[Beech]

I keep seeing people repeat this. Who in the guys who are locked in long term was a bad choice? Stutzle, Sanderson, Batherson, Tkachuk, Norris, Pinto, Chabot, Zub. To say the roster was constructed badly, you'd be implying many of these names were not the right choices.

They weren't. But the Sens had no choice. They were picking apples from a basket of rotted ones.

Take a good look at the draft 2015 to 2023. Go through it real carefully. You end up at about 10 quality guys.

Two of which have won cups (as major contributors). Mathew T. and Cale Makar. The rest of the crop has failed to win and in many instances have failed to pull their team up.

Go through the top 10 picks, 2015-2023.. See how many have achieved anything????

2003-2014 was one of the better 12 year draft period in NHL history. Many top 10's became stars and led their teams to success.

2015-2023 is proving to be black hole. And so teams finding themselves in the unfortunate situation of having to rebuild, have had to do so in a period of very poor talent coming through.

We could become Buffalo. The reality is: The Sens, Sabers, Wings, Utah, Sharks, Ducks, Habs are all unlucky enough to be bad when the talent supply was/is bad.

 

[DueDiligence]

Ok...

We already had Chabot and Zub. Should we have passed on Sanderson for someone else at 5OA in 2020?
We got Batherson in the 4th round, who should we have taken instead?
We returned Norris in the Karlsson trade, who was reasonably available to get instead?
Giroux was a free agent signing, who could that money have gone to instead that would have given us a better player?
Go to the 2019 draft, look at the 2nd round selections, and tell me who was the obvious choice to take instead of Pinto.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Or should we have traded some/many of these players while they were still developing? It's not really a trick question. If you say the roster was constructed badly, you're saying there were very obvious alternatives to some or many of the 8 guys that are locked in long term. Let's hear your reasoning.

You know you can draft guys and then trade them away as time goes on and you acuire new players.
But for starters:
Initially I would have kept Gustafsson and not had to sign Korpisalo.
This off season:
I would have traded Chabot and kept Chychrun. Save cap dollars and keep a goal scoring Dman. And get a guy like Jensen to help him play D. Also acquire a tough 3rd pairing Dman.
I would have signed Jake Debrusk instead of Perron.
There's a few moves to chew on.

 

[Beech]

What if they win 3 lose one then win 3?

Or how about this since we can't seem to win 3 straight this year,

What if we win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, then lose 1. Would that get us in the mix?

It is -4 outside, will peak at -2. Tonight and much of teh week will be below 0. There is snow on the ground.
We don't have a basketball team,

WHY ARE YOU WORRIED? we HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO FOLLOW The Sens, REGARDLESS OF WIN LOSE.

why IS MEDIA SO AFRAID? why DO THEY TRIP OVER THEIR OWN FEET, SELLING FALSE HOPE?

we ARE NOT Tampa Bay. There ARE NO OTEHR OPTIONS.

(Sorry about the upper case)

Media in Ottawa, Hypes and pumps tires.. why? We have no place to go.... The Sens could be 20 points out and media here will hit us with "so you say, we have a chance".

 

[BankStreetParade]

You could make different personnel decisions after they're drafted. Maybe play harder ball on contracts and keep them more easily movable and enticing without an 8x8 attached. Some of it is unavoidable with injuries. Like, Zub is a good player and don't mean to imply he's not, but he is out too often. Has applied to others. I'm not going to pretend to have the answers specifically on names, but surely there were avenues to create a more balanced team via trades after the fact. Even smaller things like keeping DeMelo for Chabot (ftr I supported letting him walk at the time). They also would have an easier time pivoting their core in general if they hadn't left themselves completely barren in Belleville and beyond. It's pretty incredible how thin they are for an organization that rebuilt. Like, literally almost nothing of consequence coming other than maybe Yak who was just drafted. They also lack that offensive driver from the backend that appears to be a big hole that is unfillable internally atm. Can see why a guy like Addison was tried in camp or the Karlsson talks come back up, it's a big hole.

Like who? I don't necessarily disagree with you but I can't get an answer out of anyone as to who are the culprits in this badly constructed core. There's only a few guys who make that $8Mish cap. Chabot was the first one to sign and we know the mental pressure this organization was under to get it done. Tkachuk and Stutzle are already outperforming their contracts offensively. That leaves Norris and Sanderson. Norris had 35G in 66 games. No way to know we'd be getting 3 shoulder surgeries before he even got underway on his extension. Sanderson was signed September 2023, so it was done with the blessing of the new regime.

The rest of the roster has already been thoroughly reworked by the current GM. So if anyone is wearing all of the coulda, shoulda, woulda stuff on the secondary pieces, it should be Staios, at this point. He brought in Gregor, Cousins, Amadio, Perron, Jensen, Ullmark and Gaudette. Most of those guys have done f*** all so far, one of them has majorly outperformed expectations and the other can, at most, generously be described as a breakeven trade. (Although with Chychrun's offense, maybe we're actually losing that trade, on the whole)

 

[BankStreetParade]

You know you can draft guys and then trade them away as time goes on and you acuire new players.
But for starters:
Initially I would have kept Gustafsson and not had to sign Korpisalo.
This off season:
I would have traded Chabot and kept Chychrun. Save cap dollars and keep a goal scoring Dman. And get a guy like Jensen to help him play D. Also acquire a tough 3rd pairing Dman.
I would have signed Jake Debrusk instead of Perron.
There's a few moves to chew on.

Ok but the person I originally replied to said Dorion constructed a bad roster.

Chabot over Chychrun, Debrusk over Perron, acquiring a tough 3rd pairing Dman this offseason are all Staios things.

We have 8 guys on long term contracts that were locked in by Dorion. I mentioned the names, who are we missing out value for?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Like who? I don't necessarily disagree with you but I can't get an answer out of anyone as to who are the culprits in this badly constructed core. There's only a few guys who make that $8Mish cap. Chabot was the first one to sign and we know the mental pressure this organization was under to get it done. Tkachuk and Stutzle are already outperforming their contracts offensively. That leaves Norris and Sanderson. Norris had 35G in 66 games. No way to know we'd be getting 3 shoulder surgeries before he even got underway on his extension. Sanderson was signed September 2023, so it was done with the blessing of the new regime.

The rest of the roster has already been thoroughly reworked by the current GM. So if anyone is wearing all of the coulda, shoulda, woulda stuff on the secondary pieces, it should be Staios, at this point. He brought in Gregor, Cousins, Amadio, Perron, Jensen, Ullmark and Gaudette. Most of those guys have done f*** all so far, one of them has majorly outperformed expectations and the other can, at most, generously be described as a breakeven trade. (Although with Chychrun's offense, maybe we're actually losing that trade, on the whole)

I thought I gave some I guess. Sanderson isn't a bad core member, but we obviously can't expect a 5on5 offensive leader out of him loike they seem to, so maybe he is fine, but needs a different D makeup with him for it to work. Mackenzie Weegar would look a hell of a lot better on this team than any of our dmen imo and might have been an avenue there. Chabot I'm okay with. Tkachuk and Stu as well. Norris I like but is probably not a true needle mover and more of a core support player. Kind of guy that maybe should have been bridged instead. With the injuries, he'd probably be real cheap atm leaving room. Same with Batherson. Pinto/Grieg may not be paid 8, but they were supposed to be those other support pieces and both look like they belong in Belleville atm. I support the Ullmark move but maybe a Stolarz signing instead with another 5 millish player instead.

SS deserves some criticism for the moves this summer not working out, no doubt, but it wasn't like what they had in house had worked out either, so I was happy to see some shit flinged at the wall and not just running back another failed squad.

All that ignores the dire state Dorion left the org in asset wise. They should be able to pivot, but they can't, because they basically have 1 prospect worth his salt and he just got drafted. If SS wasn't so starved for assets, maybe he has better options at his disposal this past season. Also think the 6 straight failed seasons probably affected their ability to draw any interest on the market similar to what Dorion faced with Melnyk as the owner and being viewed as a bad organization.

 

[Loach]

What if they win 3 lose one then win 3?

Or how about this since we can't seem to win 3 straight this year,

What if we win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, lose 1, win 2, then lose 1. Would that get us in the mix?

What do the % tell you?

 

[Micklebot]

What do the % tell you?

I see you are having troubles with the math, it's ok, it's not your fault, it's the education system.

 

[Blotto71]

At work and just checking in, but can not wait to read this thread later!! Woo!!!

 

[DueDiligence]

Ok but the person I originally replied to said Dorion constructed a bad roster.

Chabot over Chychrun, Debrusk over Perron, acquiring a tough 3rd pairing Dman this offseason are all Staios things.

We have 8 guys on long term contracts that were locked in by Dorion. I mentioned the names, who are we missing out value for?

Chabot has not lived up to his promise when he signed his deal. Norris and Sanderson were signed to big money too early and are not worth it right now. Zub's injuries have made him a bad investment. The DeBrincat and Gustafsson trades were bad moves and have cost the team cheap personnel and valuable cap dollars.

 

[Loach]

I see you are having troubles with the math, it's ok, it's not your fault, it's the education system.

Do you see them going on a 6-3 run? And then another? And then another?

 

[HoweHullOrr]

TL/DNR.

 

[Micklebot]

Do you see them going on a 6-3 run? And then another? And then another?

I'm not a fortune teller so I won't make claims about what will happen, but i did see you making straw man claims of what needed to happen.

What they need to do is win enough games to finish ahead of 8 other EC teams after 82 games, how they go about it, what order they get the points in is irrelevant,

 

[The Waffler]

Just win more, it’s that simple.

 

[Tuna99]

I'm not a fortune teller so I won't make claims about what will happen, but i did see you making straw man claims of what needed to happen.

What they need to do is win enough games to finish ahead of 8 other EC teams after 82 games, how they go about it, what order they get the points in is irrelevant,

Rebuild is when brother turns on brother