Elite Teams (And Why The Pens Aren't One)

[Bar Down]

The Canucks are probably the worst team to contrast against the Pens.



Stellar regular season, followed by playoff losses to "hot" teams. Pretty similar to the Pens, eh?

 

[JTG]

Pittsburgh is elite, primarily because of who they can dress. No other team has 3 capable goal scorers like we do. Two of them are capable of 50, and playing at MVP levels, and the other is good for 40. All 3 of which are signed to well below market value deals, and in no way prohibit management from surrounding them with talent.

 

[Tender Rip]

Bylsma's dedicated to quick transition and a north-south game, and the fact is that you will always be able to pass the puck a lot faster than you can skate it.
Get the puck up-ice, get it deep, and make the opposition play in their zone is the DB mantra. It's always going to be a big part of his repertoire, much to the chagrin of this board

PLEASE, we all like that! But it only works if there is support, an effective forecheck and the break-out has enough variety to utilize the fact that we have great puck carriers. Some of the best in the league!

(do people remember that the stretch pass was a big reason why Philly beat us last year?).

Because their bigger, stronger forwards beat us on the walls and behind our net, and it limited their turnovers and the need for their defenders to skate with us while forcing our non-physical D to do what they did worst?
Are we not exactly the opposite kind of team?

A blueline with Letang, Niskanen, Martin, and Despres should be executing stretch plays.

Some times! Of course. Preferably when they see an opening.
I and many others only ask for more variety and that the rest of our game is set up to actually make opponents struggle when we do utilize it.
But a blueline of great skaters and puck handlers should damn well better also use their skills to do quick tape to tape passes to our forwards and help bring the puck up through the neutral zone. Sid and Geno are unreal when building up that speed through the neutral zone. And as for skaters such as Letang, Martin, Nisky and Despres.... they should also rather use their skating to support the play than to religiously bomb the puck down the ice! And no, it doesn't happen every time, and yes there is group think going on with everyone suddenly talking about stretch passes. But that doesn't mean we aren't greatly overdoing them to begin with, nor that puck support is not a lacking component in making them work.

 

[spcastlemagic]

Oh man it sucks so much to have such little eliteness

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

PLEASE, we all like that! But it only works if there is support, an effective forecheck and the break-out has enough variety to utilize the fact that we have great puck carriers. Some of the best in the league!

We also have some of the worst puck-carriers in the league, TR. Namely, just about all our wingers.

My point is that as beautiful as it would be to have a Green Unit type transition game with each man working in unison making short precision passes to each other in stride, it's simply not reasonable to make it a go-to breakout with the players we have. When we have talented players on the ice capable of that sort of game, ie the PP, then we do regularly use that breakout.

I have no problem with our forecheck.

Because their bigger, stronger forwards beat us on the walls and behind our net, and it limited their turnovers and the need for their defenders to skate with us while forcing our non-physical D to do what they did worst?
Are we not exactly the opposite kind of team?

If our depth players aren't built for a chip and chase game and battling in the tough areas, what are they built for? It's certainly not a skill game.

Some times! Of course. Preferably when they see an opening.
I and many others only ask for more variety and that the rest of our game is set up to actually make opponents struggle when we do utilize it.

But a blueline of great skaters and puck handlers should damn well better also use their skills to do quick tape to tape passes to our forwards and help bring the puck up through the neutral zone. Sid and Geno are unreal when building up that speed through the neutral zone. And as for skaters such as Letang, Martin, Nisky and Despres.... they should also rather use their skating to support the play than to religiously bomb the puck down the ice! And no, it doesn't happen every time, and yes there is group think going on with everyone suddenly talking about stretch passes. But that doesn't mean we aren't greatly overdoing them to begin with, nor that puck support is not a lacking component in making them work.

I guess I just think our defensemen's skills do get engaged enough, and the variety of our breakouts is tailored to what we have to work with. We can get better, but I don't think we're as fundamentally flawed as we're often made out to be. We aren't always winning in spite of the system, or losing because of it.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I think the following blog post extrapolates a bit too much from a small sample size, but the OP made me think of it.

It's a theory that the sub-par ice at CONSOL is holding the team back.

http://cityofchampionssports.com/20...ity-at-consol-energy-center-hurting-penguins/

I'm not sure I fully agree with the premise -- certainly the team's shortcomings can't all be written off to the ice surface. But it plays into the discussion about puck possession and the team's style.

Thoughts?

That... is interesting. I never thought about it because I always assumed with state of the art facilities this should never be a problem. The fact that it is a problem this long after the building has opened, is inexcusable. That said, it's not an excuse in and of itself. Team must adapt, period.

Wonder if it has something to do with airflow more than the concrete and pipe system under the ice. Either way you'd think when designing it, that the ice and all things which affect it, would be at the fore-front of the architect's mind, that ice gurus would be involved as consultants, etc. Pittsburgh is a cold enough town that I can't understand why we wouldn't have some of the very best ice in the league every year (given state of the art facilities). I don't expect it to be EDM ice, but it shouldn't be a problem to us, that's for sure.

I don't think there are any elite teams, I hate that term for teams. The Pens are a contender, I like that word, contender. As long as this team is a contender, they are worth mentioning for a team to beat or emulate.

Well said.

Oh man it sucks so much to have such little eliteness

Meh. You can't argue a team IS elite based on a 16 game record anymore than you can argue they're not.

 

[Shady Machine]

Bylsma's dedicated to quick transition and a north-south game, and the fact is that you will always be able to pass the puck a lot faster than you can skate it. Get the puck up-ice, get it deep, and make the opposition play in their zone is the DB mantra. It's always going to be a big part of his repertoire, much to the chagrin of this board (do people remember that the stretch pass was a big reason why Philly beat us last year?).

Given the options we have on defense, that sort of play shouldn't be off-limits. Our defensemen are a helluva lot more talented in transition than our forwards are outside of Geno and Sid, and I have more faith in them completing a long pass than I do the likes of Dupes or TK making a short pass in the neutral zone. I have a feeling that if the board had its way and we started relying on short-passing plays, we'd backpedal pretty quick after the 11,000th neutral zone turnover and subsequent odd-man rush the other way. A blueline with Letang, Niskanen, Martin, and Despres should be executing stretch plays.

That said, I don't think Bylsma's nearly as rigid or one-note as he's portrayed here. I see more than a few plays where the team comes up as a unit. The problem is that whenever a stretch is used, that seems to be all anyone can focus on, and it's always assumed to be the wrong move (even when it works).

I'm a bit confused here. So you are saying that making long stretch passes is using our talent on defense? To me, it's really not. Basically our D take the puck and throw it up the ice for a guy standing at the far blue line. That really doesn't take a lot of skill in terms of skating with the puck. I want our D skating the puck and having our forwards support them off the rush. Yeah activate the stretch play from time to time, but we need puck support.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm a bit confused here. So you are saying that making long stretch passes is using our talent on defense? To me, it's really not. Basically our D take the puck and throw it up the ice for a guy standing at the far blue line. That really doesn't take a lot of skill in terms of skating with the puck. I want our D skating the puck and having our forwards support them off the rush. Yeah activate the stretch play from time to time, but we need puck support.

Yes. They are very good transition passers who are capable of quick retrievals and skating the puck out of danger when necessary, plus the odd rush. I don't think we need them regularly Mike Green-ing it up for them to best utilize their talents.

 

[Shockmaster]

The Penguins certainly aren't perfect, but name me a team that is perfect. If the Penguins aren't an elite team, then I would say there is only one elite team right now - Chicago.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Pens are elite, but their domination is less pronounced this year than in years past. Pens puck possession has typically been about pinning the other team in their own end, not playing keep away all over the ice a la Detroit. Last year the pens lead the league in shot differential, which is a good indicator of how dominating a team is. This year the pens are shooting less because they're not getting nearly the amount of offensive zone time that they used to. Partly because we've lost some secondary scoring, partly because some of the grinders have declined and the pens seemingly can't win board battles anymore.

I do agree though that in their current form there is no way the pens can win the cup. Shero absolutely has to make some moves if the pens want a realistic shot.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yes. They are very good transition passers who are capable of quick retrievals and skating the puck out of danger when necessary, plus the odd rush. I don't think we need them regularly Mike Green-ing it up for them to best utilize their talents.

Fair enough. You still need puck support. There is FAR too much space between the d and all 3 forwards on a consistent basis.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Fair enough. You still need puck support. There is FAR too much space between the d and all 3 forwards on a consistent basis.

I definitely agree that we can make refinements and tweaks. I just don't think stretch passes are the boogeyman, or that we have glaring fundamental problems.

 

[Shady Machine]

I definitely agree that we can make refinements and tweaks. I just don't think stretch passes are the boogeyman, or that we have glaring fundamental problems.

Neither do I. I like the stretch pass. It's really good for quick transitions (especially when the other team is making a change). I just think the importance of "quick ups", "go north" and "spend the least amount of time in your defensive zone as possible" has led to us being very predictable, led to less passing options and creativity, and frankly boring to watch. In some ways it seems to be taking the thinking out of the game. The D are making the quickest decision rather than the best one. I know we talk about it a lot here and I don't think it's a huge issue, just saying what I think of it's overuse.

The D get the puck, turn, skate 2 strides and fire a pass from the top of the circle to a winger just outside the far blue line. Seemingly half the time we miss the pass and the other team regroups or it's an icing. Thirty percent we chip it and dump it in and the other 20 percent we make a good tip pass to a streaking player. I made those percentages up and am likely exaggerating, but you get the idea. I guess I would like to see a check down player. Where if the pass isn't there, they can feed it to Sid or Geno swooping low to get speed. Also, I think since we have strong skating D we should encourage them to rush the puck more, especially if the pass isn't there. I just think the D are forcing the pass when it isn't there just for the sake of "going north" (a term I absolutely despise because Steiggy says is like he's some brilliant hockey analyst).

At the end of the day, we are winning so I can't complain. As a fan, I'd like to see a little more puck control and support. I want to be coming up the ice as a unit more than just firing the puck down the ice. I want to see more poise and patience. There's nothing wrong with regrouping again if there aren't passing lanes.

 

[mpp9]

Hopefully a trade for an impact forward will light a fire under this team. We need more speed in transition and more consistent offensive zone time.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Pens are elite, but their domination is less pronounced this year than in years past. Pens puck possession has typically been about pinning the other team in their own end, not playing keep away all over the ice a la Detroit. Last year the pens lead the league in shot differential, which is a good indicator of how dominating a team is. This year the pens are shooting less because they're not getting nearly the amount of offensive zone time that they used to. Partly because we've lost some secondary scoring, partly because some of the grinders have declined and the pens seemingly can't win board battles anymore.

I do agree though that in their current form there is no way the pens can win the cup. Shero absolutely has to make some moves if the pens want a realistic shot.

That's about as accurate an assessment of this team as I've seen in a while. Well done.

 

[TheSniper26]

I'm also not really a fan of putting the "elite" label on any team. I think there are 5-10 teams in the league that have enough talent to get hot at the right time and win the cup. That's about the extent of it.

 

[King of the Fall]

Stanley cup winners since the lockout.
05-06 Canes, East
06-07 Ducks, West
07-08 Red Wings, West
08-09 Penguins, East
09-10 Blackhawks, West
10-11 Bruins, East
11-12 Kings, West

That's West with 4 Cups the East with 3.

I don't consider that a dominance over the east at all. chicago looks like they could give the west back-to-back wins since 06-08. I don't buy into the west being dominant over the east.

 

[TheSniper26]

The whole "west is superior" argument is just nonsense. It's a built in excuse so that, if a western team loses, people can say "but they had to go through the grueling west!". In the end, the finals are about how the teams match up and it has nothing to do with conference. LA beat NJ last year, but does that mean they would have run through the Flyers or Pens in the same way? I don't really see it that way.

 

[LetangInTheSO]

The whole "west is superior" argument is just nonsense. It's a built in excuse so that, if a western team loses, people can say "but they had to go through the grueling west!". In the end, the finals are about how the teams match up and it has nothing to do with conference. LA beat NJ last year, but does that mean they would have run through the Flyers or Pens in the same way? I don't really see it that way.

To be clear, my comment in the OP was that the west's brand of hockey is different than the east's...I never made a judgment as to whether the west was better or worse.

 

[TheSniper26]

To be clear, my comment in the OP was that the west's brand of hockey is different than the east's...I never made a judgment as to whether the west was better or worse.

Oh I know. My post was more in response to the poster above who listed the breakdown of cups for each conference.

 

[KIRK]

That... is interesting. I never thought about it because I always assumed with state of the art facilities this should never be a problem. The fact that it is a problem this long after the building has opened, is inexcusable. That said, it's not an excuse in and of itself. Team must adapt, period.

Wonder if it has something to do with airflow more than the concrete and pipe system under the ice. Either way you'd think when designing it, that the ice and all things which affect it, would be at the fore-front of the architect's mind, that ice gurus would be involved as consultants, etc. Pittsburgh is a cold enough town that I can't understand why we wouldn't have some of the very best ice in the league every year (given state of the art facilities). I don't expect it to be EDM ice, but it shouldn't be a problem to us, that's for sure.




Well said.




Meh. You can't argue a team IS elite based on a 16 game record anymore than you can argue they're not.

I could also have sworn that elite teams are defined by playoff success (and cups) than what happens in the regular season.

I'm also not really a fan of putting the "elite" label on any team. I think there are 5-10 teams in the league that have enough talent to get hot at the right time and win the cup. That's about the extent of it.

THIS

We very may well be one of them. Maybe not top 3-4 in that regard as currently constructed, but a little behind that.