Player Discussion Elias Pettersson | The Forward. Not the defensemen.

[Bobby9]

When did Petey confirm he isn't suffering from any lingering injuries?

I'm certain he is still suffering. You see him throw himself in front of pucks every game. The will is there. The ability simply isn't.

Here's two potential scenarios, maybe one of them is true:

1. Petey's knee started hurting in January. The Canucks medical team didn't confirm anything so he went to a private clinic and was diagnosed with Tendinitis and was advised to rest. However, he had just had a new contract put forward so instead of telling the medical team about it, he hoped it would go away on its own. Hence the hesitation about signing the new contract (he wanted to see if the injury went away first). Turns out it didn't go away. And now he's hesitant about complaining about it because that would just prove that he lied or covered up his injury during the contract negotiations.

2. The Canucks' medical team/head Doctor is a quack who believe all illnesses (especially chronic pain-type illnesses) are psychological. A lot of Doctors actually believe this. A relative of mine suffered from back pain for a long time and saw a Doctor who claimed it was "all in his head". 3-4 months later he couldn't take the pain anymore and went to another Doctor. Turned out he had cancer all along, stage 4. Was dead soon after.

Don't forget that medical malpractice is the #1 or #2 cause of death in the United States. It's probably worse in Canada. And given the Canucks' history of treating injuries, it wouldn't surprise me at all that their head medical Doctor has declared that "tendinitis" is a fake illness caused by stress or depression.

Then why isn't he on LTIR?

 

[Lenny Levino]

Then why isn't he on LTIR?

Good question. If he truly has tendinitis then he should be. They should let him rest for the rest of this season (and maybe the start of next season too), and get some rentals in the meantime. According to studies on NBA players, 100% of those that were affected healed within 12 months of rest (but none of those that continued playing got better on their own).

Maybe Petey has good days and bad days, and trusts the medical team (who may downplay the seriousness of the injury or just be generally incompetent).

I really don't believe this is all psychological. You don't go from one of the fastest skaters in the league to below average overnight. And this happened before he signed his new contract too. I'm pretty sure the knees can affect his shooting ability as well.

If he continues playing with pain, he will probably re-learn skating and shooting in a way that does not cause him pain. But it could be hard to go back to his old way of skating and shooting then. The longer this continues, the higher the chance he's cooked for good.

I don't think it was Petey himself who said he had tendinitis, by the way. He just said he had a knee injury. It was then Tocchet who said: "Yeah, he has a bit of tendinitis or something like that". He said it in a way like it's a kind of joke injury, or something that doesn't actually exist. That hints that this is how the medical team has reported on the injury towards the management.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

What injury? The player and staff have said hes fine.

How can you continue to tell us whats wrong with somebody when the person youre talking about says theyre fine?

You know. Not fooling anyone.

Then why isn't he on LTIR?

You know why.

 

[Hodgy]

@pitseleh , great work. I think there is little doubt that Tochett's system has and is negatively impacting our offensive players. So its a great exercise to try to isolate how much Pettersson's offensive decline, in numbers, is systems driven. Some thoughts:

• Looking at last year, and at least based on my viewing, you could see Tochett continually tighten up his system as the season went along which explains, perhaps, partly why Pettersson's struggles began in season. Although the relatively sharp decline in February, when he signed the contract, is a bit harder to explain since you would think systems related changes would be more steady.;
• In some ways I think it would be more helpful to be comparing Pettersson's post-February numbers to his pre-February numbers. I think the comparison of this year vs. last year skews the results since last season included a half season of his decline numbers;
• the percentages caving in is an interesting one. On the one hand, I am not too surprised that on ice shoot percentage is down with Pettersson on the ice as I don't think he is driving the play offensively, and he constantly doesn't seem to be moving his feet and attacking offensively. So a decline is expected. But its hard to say how much of this is systems or just Pettersson being far less dynamic offensively than he has been in the past;
• On the defensive results and this statement: "It’s more than his defensive results just having not suffered though - they are improved substantially, even compared to last year when he had a much better defence behind him. That to me says it’s a conscious trade-off." I 100% agree. And bringing @bossram into this discussion as this was a point I was trying to get at when we were talking about a player's "compete" level. And when I look at Pettersson I see a player that is cheating on the defensive side of the puck, and as a result, isn't "competing" enough on the offensive side of the puck. And so his superior defensive results are not surprising, because he's an extremely smart player. But his offensive results, I think, are suffering significantly as a result. It could be a systems thing, or coaching, but I also think it could have resulted when he was trying to play his way out of his slump and when he lost his confidence which mainly had to do with making offensive plays. So during this slump he started to focus his efforts on his defensive game (which probably accorded with advice from the coaches) but that led him to cheat on the defensive side of the game which has led him to fewer scoring chances. And unfortunately, while the intention of focusing on the defensive game was probably to play his way out of the slump, its ironically led to him getting less scoring chances which is making it very difficult for him to get his confidence back.

 

[pitseleh]

Would have to look under the hood but Clayton Keller is the most obvious example. 54 points / 82 games under Tocchet, better than a PPG since Tocchet left.

Looking at this a bit. At even strength Keller went from a 1.8 P/60 player under Tocchet to 2.6 P/60 post-Tocchet. This was almost entirely percentages driven: Keller’s personal SH% went up by more than 4% and his on-ice SH% went up by more than 3%.

This lends some credence that Pettersson’s percentages have been similarly hurt. You’re talking about large samples in Keller’s case - more than 250 games both before and after - so it is unlikely a fluke.

 

[crowfish]

Every player in the salary cap era to have at least 400 pts in 400 games & be 1.00 pts/game through their first 6 seasons

All HOFers & that loser EP40

(just posting this for the lols for later in the week when we get Bryam & Cozens + a 2nd for him)

 

[Hodgy]

Every player in the salary cap era to have at least 400 pts in 400 games & be 1.00 pts/game through their first 6 seasons

All HOFers & that loser EP40

(just posting this for the lols for later in the week when we get Bryam & Cozens + a 2nd for him)

View attachment 968144

I already did the turkey girl WOW, but its worth mentioning that scoring has steadily increased in the salary cap era over the past 400 games, and the other players on this list, on first glance, are all older than Petey and some are much older, and so their achievements are comparatively more impressive.

 

[crowfish]

I already did the turkey girl WOW, but its worth mentioning that scoring has steadily increased in the salary cap era over the past 400 games, and the other players on this list, on first glance, are all older than Petey and some are much older, and so their achievements are comparatively more impressive.

They are not older... It is only showing the stats for their first 6 seasons.

 

[lawrence]

4 points in his last 14 games, somethings gotta give. As much as I hate to say it, if JT Miller is causing problems in the locker room, 2 A's not getting along, I'm down for getting rid of Jt MIller. Pettersson and the team was playing ok when Miller took his leave. Petterson went through a 22 point in 17 game stretch, but this is too much. Trade JT, I don't really care what we get. Probably a losing deal, I don't care. We need to move on. We can weaponize the cap room for another guy later on.

 

[rypper]

Every player in the salary cap era to have at least 400 pts in 400 games & be 1.00 pts/game through their first 6 seasons

All HOFers & that loser EP40

(just posting this for the lols for later in the week when we get Bryam & Cozens + a 2nd for him)

View attachment 968144

Pettersson will bounce back and if they trade him it'll be an all-time blunder.

 

[Hodgy]

They are not older... It is only showing the stats for their first 6 seasons.

No, I know. My point is they are older and therefore there first 400 games occurred during a period of time where scoring was lower than the period of time that Petey scored his 400 points over 400 games. Based on quick math, the last five years are 4.5-5 percent higher in scoring than the five years following the implementation of the salary cap.

So, you shouldn’t be looking at a ppg as the bench mark for players starting after the salary cap, but instead, you should be looking at guys scoring at .95 ppg. The results would likely be a larger list of players.

 

[Icebreakers]

Pettersson will bounce back and if they trade him it'll be an all-time blunder.

Does that matter if he never would have reached his true potential in Vancouver?

 

[rypper]

Does that matter if he never would have reached his true potential in Vancouver?

Who's to say he won't? Bounce back implies he's going to get back to around previous level.

 

[CRDragon]

Read this in a random social media post and can't help but to think about our beloved EP40 and JT9

Real Love Grows Through Time and Effort.
It doesn’t fade—it transforms. It deepens through commitment, flourishes through resilience, and endures through every season of life. When the initial spark fades, what remains is the steady, enduring flame of a love that has weathered the storms and come out stronger.
Choose to love. Choose to stay. Choose to build the kind of love that isn’t swayed by convenience but grounded in real, unshakable commitment.

And win the cup.

I added the last sentence.

 

[Grub]

Just got updated with all the trade talk happening. If I had a choice it would be Pettersson that we should move. If we can get Power or Bryam from the Sabres along with a younger top 6 center I think it helps the team in the short run and long run. Personally I prefer Power, I think he does a Hedman where he reaches his peak in his mid late 20’s. Hughes will elevate the new center’s game and point totals, because clearly Pettersson is just not performing. If this is the real Pettersson that we’re going to get in the upcoming years, as well as the 2024 playoff Pettersson, then this is our last chance to unload that anchor contract. I don’t believe in Pettersson, guy just doesn’t have it, doesn’t have the heart and just seems to lack motivation.

Time for a major shake for this core.

 

[B-rock]

Why not? Tendinitis will last for years/life unless you rest and let it heal.

Here's a good breakdown:

Why did he say at the start of this season, “I don’t feel any pain in it now or after (the skates). It’s not a big thing. Knee is fine.”

And why would he be playing in the 4 Nations if the knee was still such a problem?

There are a number of examples of athletes who have mentally lost their edge and consequently their speed, skill, performance.

I don’t discredit that it could be due to Tocchet along with his systems that have eroded his confidence. To me that makes more sense and also explains his stickhandling yips (never used to see these, whereas now there tends to be at least a couple a game.) and his tendency towards defending vs creating offence.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Why did he say at the start of this season, “I don’t feel any pain in it now or after (the skates). It’s not a big thing. Knee is fine.”

Can you think of any reason?

And why would he be playing in the 4 Nations if the knee was still such a problem?

Can you think of any reason?

There are a number of examples of athletes who have mentally lost their edge and consequently their speed, skill, performance.

They are extreme outliers.

To jump to this conclusion instead of the very obvious one needs some motivation to want to do so.

I don’t discredit that it could be due to Tocchet along with his systems that have eroded his confidence. To me that makes more sense and also explains his stickhandling yips (never used to see these, whereas now there tends to be at least a couple a game.) and his tendency towards defending vs creating offence.

 

[Bobby9]

Can you think of any reason?

Can you think of any reason?

Because he isn't injured

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Because he isn't injured

You know he is.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

You know he is.

I don't follow this line of thinking. You are saying:
1) he is injured, probably still injured,
2) resting is the only way for it to heal (one of your previous replies to my question),
3) instead of sitting out games last season (even the meaningless game 82 in Winnipeg), he played every game,
4) instead of taking time off from the 4 Nations (like Pietrangelo) and heal up, he is good enough to partake in this meaningless (in terms of the success of his NHL team, the team that is paying him the big bucks) tournament?

Why?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I don't follow this line of thinking. You are saying:
1) he is injured, probably still injured,

You dont think he is?

2) resting is the only way for it to heal (one of your previous replies to my question),

Yup.

3) instead of sitting out games last season (even the meaningless game 82 in Winnipeg), he played every game,

Canucks medical staff.

4) instead of taking time off from the 4 Nations (like Pietrangelo) and heal up, he is good enough to partake in this meaningless (in terms of the success of his NHL team, the team that is paying him the big bucks) tournament?

Why?

He wants to play for his country in the first best on best tourney in years. Who knows when he gets to do that. Representing his country.

Also the Canucks are not competetive this year.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

You dont think he is?

Yup.

Canucks medical staff.

He wants to play for his country in the first best on best tourney in years. Who knows when he gets to do that. Representing his country.

Also the Canucks are not competetive this year.

If he is injured, then why is he not resting every chance he has? I get that he wants to represent his country, but this isn't going to be his only chance, and doesn't he kind of owes it to his employers and fans to play his best for the Vancouver Canucks? If by resting for a couple weeks in February gives him even a 5% improvement for the stretch drive, I think that should be a higher priority than playing in this tournament.

Blaming everything on the Canucks medical staff is such a cop out. Are those same medical staff forcing Petey to play in 4 Nations too? Maybe they pressure him to play games for the Nucks but to put Petey's participation at the tournament on the medical team is pretty lame.

Canucks are within a few points from the WC#2, I get that they aren't cup favorite but its not like they have no shot at the playoff either. In fact I think all 3 of Hughes, JTM and Petey should skip the tournament since they are all clearly injured.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

If he is injured, then why is he not resting every chance he has? I get that he wants to represent his country, but this isn't going to be his only chance, and doesn't he kind of owes it to his employers and fans to play his best for the Vancouver Canucks? If by resting for a couple weeks in February gives him even a 5% improvement for the stretch drive, I think that should be a higher priority than playing in this tournament.

If the team was a normal team.

If the relationship between team and player was normal.

Blaming everything on the Canucks medical staff is such a cop out. Are those same medical staff forcing Petey to play in 4 Nations too? Maybe they pressure him to play games for the Nucks but to put Petey's participation at the tournament on the medical team is pretty lame.

Ok.

Canucks are within a few points from the WC#2, I get that they aren't cup favorite but its not like they have no shot at the playoff either. In fact I think all 3 of Hughes, JTM and Petey should skip the tournament since they are all clearly injured.

Its your right as a Canucks fan to think that way.

 

[rypper]

 

[iFan]

4 points in his last 14 games, somethings gotta give. As much as I hate to say it, if JT Miller is causing problems in the locker room, 2 A's not getting along, I'm down for getting rid of Jt MIller. Pettersson and the team was playing ok when Miller took his leave. Petterson went through a 22 point in 17 game stretch, but this is too much. Trade JT, I don't really care what we get. Probably a losing deal, I don't care. We need to move on. We can weaponize the cap room for another guy later on.

Is it Miller though? We have ex players who have been in that lock room saying Pettersson is immature and seems to be apart of the problem. I’m not on Pettersson or Millers side, probably at the point of trade them both given how childish this is.