Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

[racerjoe]

But the injury has almost become a moot point. Some think he still has an injury which is causing the poor play, some think he doesn't, some think his poor play is a carry over from his varied training that was caused by his injury, some don't. Some point to his Edge speed numbers as evidence of an injury, some point out that these numbers just show he is performing poorly and that he was slow during his last slump, and some point to his Edge shot numbers suggesting he has another injury, but some point out that he's still hitting similar highs and that the lack of number of shots is more a result of his poor play. Some think he is competing, and some don't, some point out that his own GM has suggested that he isn't competing.

You can go on and on and on, and we have!

But again, it may all be a moot point, because is there really a reality where it is acceptable for an 11.6 million dollar player to score 58 points over the last calendar year? Like, even with an injury or two, I'd still expect a better performance. If you have an injury that is causing that type of decline in performance then why are you even playing? And sure, Pettersson hasn't played with the best linemates, or always played with the best defensemen, but again, does it even matter? Does it justify an 11.6 million dollar to play at a 62 point pace for a calendar year?

I agree with your last paragraph even though we disagree on so much else…

It’s not good enough. I just enjoy the why part of the debate, cause it is a debate.

I do think earlier it was him not being able to train fully in the offseason, then from this having some confidence issues. It’s clear he was getting better as the season was progressing. Then I think two things happened.

Miller came back, and I really think this part isn’t just a Pettersson think but a team think as the vibes have just been off since. The. He hurt himself again, and I do think his confidence is now also shattered.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

So a guy like Barkov then? I can't think of any other player off the top of my head.

Yeah. Almost one of a kind young center. So you get the point.

He and his agent did really well though, I have to say. Netting a contract with the 5th highest cap hit for a player that has over 100 points once in 6 seasons, higher than other more established star players, in the range of the best players in the league. If that is taking a pay cut, I wonder how much you would've offered him if you were in Allvin's position.

I dont think they did.

Should have went for a shorter contract so he can resign younger with the cap going up.

He did a solid for the team giving them 8 years. Despite the team sucking ass for the entirety of his time here so far.

I wish I can be as optimistic as you are about Petey's ability to bounce back, I really do, but 12 months (and counting) is a long time for a player to struggle. You seem to work with pro-athletes, how long in your opinion does it take for somebody to recover from knee tendinitis? I'm not being snarky or anything, I sincerely wants to know because I really need some kind of timeline so that I can have something to look forward to.

Weird logic. But ok.

Did you know he has a ongoing knee issue that has made him a sub 50 percentile skater?

 

[Hodgy]

I agree with your last paragraph even though we disagree on so much else…

Ya, and I'm not trying to re-litigate any of it. I just think lost in the debate is the bigger issue that Pettersson's production just isn't justifiable under almost any circumstances. And even if it is being caused by injuries, do we want an 11.6 million dollar player, signed for 7 more years, that is liable to have massive slumps when fighting through an injury? Its a bad result anyway you slice it.

It’s not good enough. I just enjoy the why part of the debate, cause it is a debate.

Yes, me too. I enjoy the debate because I find the why interesting. Because the evidence isn't all consistent. Some evidence points one way and some points the other.

I do think earlier it was him not being able to train fully in the offseason, then from this having some confidence issues. It’s clear he was getting better as the season was progressing. Then I think two things happened.

Miller came back, and I really think this part isn’t just a Pettersson think but a team think as the vibes have just been off since. The. He hurt himself again, and I do think his confidence is now also shattered.

I think a lot of it is Tocchett's system and the defense as well. But then again, even in isolation, Pettersson doesn't look good offensively to me.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Timing and age matter here.

Eichel is likely getting $13m~ in 1.5 years. He took 12.58% of the cap on his 2nd contract, while Pettersson took 9.02% on his 2nd contract. And it's a better AAV now because it went max term...

Mackinnon also signed for 15.09% of the cap a year ago. Nylander just signed a retirement deal for $11.5m AAV (13.07% of the cap)... Pettersson definitely left money on the table. Media guys were catching up to the model as Pettersson's year had progressed.

Petey took 13.2% of the 2024-25 cap, are you arguing that his fair market value is higher than that? How much higher?

Yeah. Almost one of a kind young center. So you get the point.

I dont think they did.

Should have went for a shorter contract so he can resign younger with the cap going up.

He did a solid for the team giving them 8 years. Despite the team sucking ass for the entirety of his time here so far.

Weird logic. But ok.

Did you know he has a ongoing knee issue that has made him a sub 50 percentile skater?

Its one of a kind because you applied some very specific quantifiers though. It isn't one of a kind in a generational McDavid type of talent. There are a bunch of other prime-aged forwards that can reasonably be comparable to Petey, but by framing the question as "24 year old Selke 100 pt C" you effectively created this false scarcity of comparable to pump up his value. Which I'm sure his agent did as well in negotiation.

I wish they DID went for a shorter contract, in hindsight. I did not see this collapse coming. I was happy at the time to lock him up to a 8 years contract, to be fair. Now...not so much.

I'm not sure why it is "weird logic" to want something to look forward to, in the middle of a nightmare-ish season. And you have shown enough Edge chart that we all know he is skating at sub 50 percentile, but that wasn't what I asked. I asked if you have any idea/guess how long does it normally take a pro-athlete to recover from knee tendinitis? It is ok if you don't know, but based on your experience I thought you might be able to shed some light. It may be that you have provided your input before and I missed it, if so I apologize.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

But the injury has almost become a moot point. Some think he still has an injury which is causing the poor play, some think he doesn't, some think his poor play is a carry over from his varied training that was caused by his injury, some don't. Some point to his Edge speed numbers as evidence of an injury, some point out that these numbers just show he is performing poorly and that he was slow during his last slump, and some point to his Edge shot numbers suggesting he has another injury, but some point out that he's still hitting similar highs and that the lack of number of shots is more a result of his poor play. Some think he is competing, and some don't, some point out that his own GM has suggested that he isn't competing.

You can go on and on and on, and we have!

But again, it may all be a moot point, because is there really a reality where it is acceptable for an 11.6 million dollar player to score 58 points over the last calendar year? Like, even with an injury or two, I'd still expect a better performance. If you have an injury that is causing that type of decline in performance then why are you even playing? And sure, Pettersson hasn't played with the best linemates, or always played with the best defensemen, but again, does it even matter? Does it justify an 11.6 million dollar to play at a 62 point pace for a calendar year?

Yea you are right, the reason for his struggle has become a moot point. The only thing that matters now is 1) if/when does he return to be an elite player worthy of $11.6m, and 2) what do management do if he doesn't.

Some seems to think that Petey will just bounce back, eventually. But when I watch the games I keep thinking "how!? and when!?" To my eyes his speed has seem to be much better now so his knee must be better, but it doesn't translate to anything productive (offensively anyways) on the ice. He can't play the "I have no linemates" excuse anymore seeing as he has 2 of JDB, Garland and Boeser on his line for awhile. He even has more shifts with Hughes now. Every mitigating factors had been taken away now, yet there's still no production?

No team can carry an $11.6m center scoring at 55 pts pace and be competitive, no matter how much the cap raise in the coming years. How we handle Petey going forward will determine the trajectory for the next 7 years (well that along with what Hughes decide to do when he hit UFA).

 

[Bleach Clean]

Petey took 13.2% of the 2024-25 cap, are you arguing that his fair market value is higher than that? How much higher?

In 2024-25, it has to be much lower. He has played poorly. In 2023-24, he could have asked for $12.5m AAV and he would still have been neutral in terms of cap efficiency. Context matters.

Besides, you can't judge an 8 year deal 4 months in. The balance of it will decide if VAN receives value.

 

[VanJack]

It's now 'official'. With last night's dud in Edmonton, Pettersson has played the equivalent of an 82 game season since signing his mega-deal.

And he's one pace for 16-20 goals and 55 points. If that doesn't keep Allvin up at night, nothing will.....not to mention long-suffering Canuck fans who are still in a state of shell-shock.

 

[Bobby9]

It's now 'official'. With last night's dud in Edmonton, Pettersson has played the equivalent of an 82 game season since signing his mega-deal.

And he's one pace for 16-20 goals and 55 points. If that doesn't keep Allvin up at night, nothing will.....not to mention long-suffering Canuck fans who are still in a state of shell-shock.

Devastating to the team.

 

[racerjoe]

Ya, and I'm not trying to re-litigate any of it. I just think lost in the debate is the bigger issue that Pettersson's production just isn't justifiable under almost any circumstances. And even if it is being caused by injuries, do we want an 11.6 million dollar player, signed for 7 more years, that is liable to have massive slumps when fighting through an injury? Its a bad result anyway you slice it.


Yes, me too. I enjoy the debate because I find the why interesting. Because the evidence isn't all consistent. Some evidence points one way and some points the other.


I think a lot of it is Tocchett's system and the defense as well. But then again, even in isolation, Pettersson doesn't look good offensively to me.

It’s the looks currently that have me looking at confidence and wondering about the room vibes. I think earlier it was just a guy trying to get back on track… since his return it’s been effort… but the look isn’t great, bad passes, and him miss handling the puck.

 

[604]

Really don't care about the room vibes.

Looking at Pettersson's game by game log and it is actually infuriating. The guy has got to go no matter what. Can't carry what he's been bringing (since signing the extension) at $11.5M.

What makes it even worse is that it seems he's deciding when he wants to play lately - just unacceptable, no matter who what else anyone is doing.

 

[Breakers]

this guy finds out they were considering trading him and he folds like a cheap suit

you can't make this up

Goes on the all-star break and forgets how to play hockey

 

[CokenoPepsi]

No.

8 vs 6 years.

13.8% vs 8.2% of cap.

In his 5 years in Vancouver before the trade, he didn't score 100 points. In 5 years! He didn't crest 30 points in any of his seasons. Pettersson is there at the halfway point. Pettersson will likely get to 60% ish of his total scoring in one down year.

Eriksson floated around, didn't give a shit. Last of to show up for practice, first one to leave. Even when he's not scoring, Pettersson isn't hurting you on the ice.

Wow didn't think he was that bad lol.

Though he was brought in to be more of a support type to the Sedins right?

While Petterson is meant to be the main guy up front.. hopefully he improves a bit

 

[beachcomber]

Too bad they couldn't get Brady Tkachuk for Petey, plus or minus whatever parts it takes. That would be incredible.

 

[SillyRabbit]

It's now 'official'. With last night's dud in Edmonton, Pettersson has played the equivalent of an 82 game season since signing his mega-deal.

And he's one pace for 16-20 goals and 55 points. If that doesn't keep Allvin up at night, nothing will.....not to mention long-suffering Canuck fans who are still in a state of shell-shock.

Does this include his 6 point playoff run in 13 games?