Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

[geebster]

Thought he had a pretty damn good game today in a frustrating loss.

 

[Lenny Levino]

Thought he had a pretty damn good game today in a frustrating loss.

First half of the game was bad, but things turned around after the goal.

 

[AlainVigneaultsGum]

Yeah, needs to be better on the dot but he was probably the best forward tonight. Too bad he and Miller didn't connect on that one chance late.

 

[Tinhorn1]

im not sure what thread it was posted in now, but it was about a week ago. he didnt use the words walking on egg shells, but he said one time petey was ignoring him one day and when he confronted him about it, petey said "oh you dont like being ignored?". or something along those lines. he then said he had learned that he has to be careful with petey to not hurt his feelings

It was a lighthearted, teasing interview from a few years back, in which Hughes talked about what great friends they were. Gimme a break.

 

[F A N]

Last year was the one season in his career that he consistently played defense hard and was accountable and was an all round stud for this team. I honestly was surprised how great a leader he became after having spent years producing but just losing focus on defense regularly or making lazy plays.

He has absolutely given up on assignments, been lazy on line changes, not listened to coaches instructions on who to cover late in games (Tocchet has given several examples of saying what he told them to do, and its clear Miller didnt do it or cover who he was told to), etc etc. That is all giving up on your teammates mid game. If you are someone who dishes it out and has a high bar for your teammates you HAVE to meet that same bar yourself. Otherwise its not going to end well and people wont want to listen to you.

He absolutely was in a different headspace last year and through last years playoffs and was a big reason we were any good (plus Demko and of course the biggest reason being Quinn). That doesnt mean hes such a leader right now. It doesnt mean he hasnt averaged a play every other game (to be generous to him) where he quits on the play and doesnt cover his guy. Tocchet has called him out several times for it, it isnt new information, its been going on for a while now. Mentally checking out IS quitting on your team, especially when they need you. Pettersson for all his problems doesnt do that defensively.

I think you make fair points. I just don't consider that giving up on his teammates. He still produced offensively (most of the time). I agree that calling out teammates while not meeting the same bar is not a good thing. Poor habits do need to be corrected and I think with Miller even fans saw that he was frustrated with himself so it's not like he's walking around high and mighty while calling out teammates at least that's not what has been reported. At the end of the day it's being accountable. It's not like Tocchet is giving Miller a free pass. It's not like when criticized Miller defended himself instead of taking responsibility (at least publicly). As for your Petey comparison, I mean if you were Petey and Miller's teammate do you care more about how is more engaged defensively or who is more engaged offensively?

Of course over time you learn your teammates' habits. From what I've read, it sounded like teammates learned to ignore Miller when he's mad at his teammates as he doesn't really mean it. But I'm not in the room so I don't know. If it has gotten to a point where it's too much for his teammates to deal with and he refuses to or can't change then I can see a trade being warranted. But again, this is such a rare thing to happen.

Should we trade him if he wants to stay? I dont think so, he can still return to that guy and his trade value wont even be great if he doesnt get more consistent (nor does trading him now give you any benefits you wouldnt have trading in the offseason). I think you have to ride it out.

Is there no way for the alleged locker room issues to resolve? Have a heart to heart and learn to play with each other because it gives the team the best chance at winning a Cup? It's not like Miller is an unpopular teammate and Petey is an exceptional player (when he's at his best).

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This is the same guy that for years want the team to prove to him they are worthy of him

Just to make something clear.
This is absolutely your own interpretation of the situation and his motives. Not anything factual.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Just to make something clear.
This is absolutely your own interpretation of the situation and his motives. Not anything factual.

Correct. I draw a conclusion based upon his words and action, but I do not have access to his actual thought process. I think my conclusion is reasonable, assuming Petey is a logical/rational person, but I concede that my conclusion is not something that I can prove.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I don't have any interpretation of Miller's intent to leave or not I don't have a damn clue about his intent as does no one else. If we're going on what's been reported is that he hasn't asked and they haven't asked so who the hell knows.

I don't feel the need to come to a conclusion when it's not even concluded.

He's not choosing to stay by invoking his no trade clause? Did something new come out in the last day? Did something come out that contradicted the statements that neither the team or himself have asked?

And no I'm not digging back wasting time going through post to try and find what I remember happening, maybe I inferred incorrectly I don't know

Then I would hope you would stay your accusation until you did recall, specifically.

Look andora, when you refuse the obvious conclusion and prevent others from said same, you become a detriment to discourse. We don't have to have the internal video of talks between Allvin and Miller. We can infer based upon the rumours already presented.

Example: In last night's post game, given this exact topic of the team not asking Miller to waive and Miller not asking for trade (supposedly), Iain MacIntyre correctly concludes that Miller is encouraging a move by talking to other teams. The same information, conclusion drawn. (Please listen to it)

You have a clue, we all do. We can infer his intent. It's not a black box, rumours are flying everywhere and most of them are corroborating the same: Pettersson has asked to stay and Miller has not. Miller is also talking to other teams. Ergo, he wants to or is open to moving. It's simple.

 

[Bleach Clean]

What I find strange is that Petterson actually went to management and said he wanted to stay, after all that happened.

This is the same guy that for years want the team to prove to him they are worthy of him, that even during the out of the blue division winning season has to be "threatened" with a trade to extend (all the while looking like he was miserable because somebody forced nearly $100m onto him).
It makes no sense to me, now that he has a "get out of jail free" card, he refuse to play it? Like sure he might get traded to Buffalo, but at least he won't get bullied there and, at least for this season, it's not like he is leaving a winning team anyways.

He had always made "playing for a winning team" such a key issue, yet now he has a chance to goto a better team potentially (that handshake deal with the team surely will give him some say), and he has already secured his bag, suddenly playing for a winner isn't so important anymore? I don't get this guy.

I really hope that Reddit guy is right and tendinitis takes a year to heal, because we are like right at the 1 year anniversary and we desperately need him to play at least like a $8m player, even if he can't get to the $11.6m level. I hate seeing these 2 (Petey and Miller) wasting a Hart worthy season from Hughes because they don't like each other.

It appears strange when the wrong initial assertion is met with mounting information to the contrary. There's no way to reconcile it.

You said he looked miserable, talked about wanting to win, and had to be threatened to re-sign. Yet there was no trade request at the end of 2022-23 from this losing club... Per Dhaliwal, no red flags behind the scenes either. He didn't re-sign immediately, which was unorthodox, but he was playing very well with suspect linemates. Fair. The team was 1st or near it in December and January, yet still nothing? Uncertainty sets in. Clearly, winning didn't do the trick. Then the danger of the CAR trade rumour gets him re-signed at the TDL... Only, he didn't have to re-sign there either. Not if he wanted out. And he re-signs for max term!?!

All of his actions align with someone who always wanted to be here. The inferences that result in narrative come from his inaction, or his personality. He's stoic, says little, and so when he conveys a strong desire to win it becomes everything. Not just a platitude. He delays re-signing and looks depressed, oh he must hate it here! Puts up amazing numbers with scrubs and re-signs for 8 years...

If you don't read too much into what he does not do, and his personality, what he does do conveys a consistent motive.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Correct. I draw a conclusion based upon his words and action, but I do not have access to his actual thought process. I think my conclusion is reasonable, assuming Petey is a logical/rational person, but I concede that my conclusion is not something that I can prove.

It could just be that the team was ran like a f***in circus during Bennings time and the first year of the new management looked alot like more of the same.

Perfectly reasonable.

 

[geebster]

I think you make fair points. I just don't consider that giving up on his teammates. He still produced offensively (most of the time). I agree that calling out teammates while not meeting the same bar is not a good thing. Poor habits do need to be corrected and I think with Miller even fans saw that he was frustrated with himself so it's not like he's walking around high and mighty while calling out teammates at least that's not what has been reported. At the end of the day it's being accountable. It's not like Tocchet is giving Miller a free pass. It's not like when criticized Miller defended himself instead of taking responsibility (at least publicly). As for your Petey comparison, I mean if you were Petey and Miller's teammate do you care more about how is more engaged defensively or who is more engaged offensively?

Not that I played at a high level, but I 1000% respect forwards who play hard on the defensive end and dont screw us over with laziness more than guys who produce but you have no idea if they will take their guy or not in our end. You can trust one of em when they are out there. I was a goalie though so that biases me on that answer a bit. Also Petey doesnt just not try offensively, his issues are ones of trying to do too much or finding a perfect play or not having enough confidence. Millers arent errors of commission they are errors of omission. They arent because hes doing too much (the types of mistakes Hoglander makes, overskating a puck or chasing the play etc) they are issues of him checking out. I have a lot less patience for people checking out than the opposite.

Its why I dont care as much when Miller makes a mistake in the offensive zone. Those tend to be because he cares too much. Like will take a dumb penalty because he battled too hard or will go to a teammate who has a puck, allowing the defender on him to then double team Boeser or whatever. Its mental lapses but its because hes trying. Its that same mentality that makes him successful so it'd be unfair to overly criticize him when it doesnt go well. However, on the defensive end its a totally different story.

So I absolutely would prefer the guy who will give it his all every single time to make sure hes not a net negative over the alternative. (also this convo should be in the JT Miller thread and not here tbh xD)

 

[F A N]

Not that I played at a high level, but I 1000% respect forwards who play hard on the defensive end and dont screw us over with laziness more than guys who produce but you have no idea if they will take their guy or not in our end. You can trust one of em when they are out there. I was a goalie though so that biases me on that answer a bit. Also Petey doesnt just not try offensively, his issues are ones of trying to do too much or finding a perfect play or not having enough confidence. Millers arent errors of commission they are errors of omission. They arent because hes doing too much (the types of mistakes Hoglander makes, overskating a puck or chasing the play etc) they are issues of him checking out. I have a lot less patience for people checking out than the opposite.

Its why I dont care as much when Miller makes a mistake in the offensive zone. Those tend to be because he cares too much. Like will take a dumb penalty because he battled too hard or will go to a teammate who has a puck, allowing the defender on him to then double team Boeser or whatever. Its mental lapses but its because hes trying. Its that same mentality that makes him successful so it'd be unfair to overly criticize him when it doesnt go well. However, on the defensive end its a totally different story.

So I absolutely would prefer the guy who will give it his all every single time to make sure hes not a net negative over the alternative. (also this convo should be in the JT Miller thread and not here tbh xD)

And again that's fair but I don't think there's a one size fits all here. At the end of the day it's about winning. If having Petey and Miller cheat on breakouts help with winning then I would be on board if I was his teammate. Everyone has their role to play. Ovechkin is hardly known for being committed defensively but I doubt he's less popular in the room than Jay Beagle (who was very popular in Washington).

 

[andora]

he wants to or is open to moving. It's simple.

yep, and those two are very different - all i said from the beginning.

what i am comfortable guessing for now is that he is open to moving. if he accepts the fact that they deem him a problem that needs to be moved he is not going to stand in their way and understands, nor if he's been deemed the problem he won't complicate the situation by demanding to stay

far cry from choosing to leave.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I agree but it’s going to be quite a feat to both find a skilled winger to complement Pettersson and find a quality scorer to play behind him in the lineup. And without both of those I think it’s going to be a challenge to compete.

A quality scorer to play behind him, like Horvat...?

But yes, it's going to be a challenge to compete. One thing that was brought up by Drance (I recommend you listen to yesterday's pod) is that the preferred deployment here is Garland running the 3rd line. Which means, the team's #5 and #6 top6 forwards are missing. PDG and Karlsson won't do. That's with Miller no less. And so, the greater impact might come from just resolving those positions.

Pettresson may not get his skilled winger, but maybe they can recreate that player in the aggregate with a full top6 complement.

yep, and those two are very different - all i said from the beginning.

what i am comfortable guessing for now is that he is open to moving. if he accepts the fact that they deem him a problem that needs to be moved he is not going to stand in their way and understands, nor if he's been deemed the problem he won't complicate the situation by demanding to stay

far cry from choosing to leave.

No, what you said from the beginning is don't draw a conclusion. Here, you're accepting a conclusion.

Based upon the information we have, Miller is at least open to leaving. Which means, he is choosing not to A) Convey his desire to stay and B) Exercise his NTC to ensure he stays. Instead, he is talking to other teams. Trade rumours abound. This then suggests a desire for a fresh start (IMac).

This all goes away if he conveys that his desire to stay is greater than the team's desire to move him, or his own desire to move.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

It appears strange when the wrong initial assertion is met with mounting information to the contrary. There's no way to reconcile it.

You said he looked miserable, talked about wanting to win, and had to be threatened to re-sign. Yet there was no trade request at the end of 2022-23 from this losing club... Per Dhaliwal, no red flags behind the scenes either. He didn't re-sign immediately, which was unorthodox, but he was playing very well with suspect linemates. Fair. The team was 1st or near it in December and January, yet still nothing? Uncertainty sets in. Clearly, winning didn't do the trick. Then the danger of the CAR trade rumour gets him re-signed at the TDL... Only, he didn't have to re-sign there either. Not if he wanted out. And he re-signs for max term!?!

All of his actions align with someone who always wanted to be here. The inferences that result in narrative come from his inaction, or his personality. He's stoic, says little, and so when he conveys a strong desire to win it becomes everything. Not just a platitude. He delays re-signing and looks depressed, oh he must hate it here! Puts up amazing numbers with scrubs and re-signs for 8 years...

If you don't read too much into what he does not do, and his personality, what he does do conveys a consistent motive.

It could just be that the team was ran like a f***in circus during Bennings time and the first year of the new management looked alot like more of the same.

Perfectly reasonable.

I'll just address both replies at the same time.

I get what you both are saying, and there are definitely valid reasons for some of the actions he has taken. I don't blame him for not extending when Benning was still running the show, and I also don't hold it against him to extend as soon as Allvin took over because he understandably wants to see that things have changed.

However, he didn't need to do the Elliot Friedman interview, he didn't need to repeatedly and publicly say that he wants to play for a winning team. By doing all these, he is clearly putting the pressure on management that "you better put a winning team on the ice or else..." Had he played it quietly and just say "I'll let my agent handle it" or something like that, it would've been much less threatening.

By winter of 2023, the team was already winning, they extended his running mate (Kuzmenko), the dollar and terms the team is willing to offer is more than fair, management has proven to be competent, coaching has appeared to stabilized. What else is he waiting for at that time? A player that wants to play for a winner (which the team was at the time), offers max term at fair market value (if not more), and surrounded by good players, is refusing to sign? What other logical conclusion can you draw, aside from the fact that he isn't all that committed to staying?

Sure it is well within his right to wait until the summer like he wanted, but he and his agent HAS to know the kind of awkward situation that puts the team in. They cannot let Petey go into the offseason without a contract, and open themselves to an offer sheet. They cannot plan beyond the 2023-24 season unless they know whether their 1C is staying, and how much it would cost. They cannot risk the Tkachuk situation and torpedo the team's competitive window. He didn't HAVE TO request a trade, his (in)action inevitably leads to one unless he sign an extension before free agency. I can understand why management were feeling antsy about the situation and had to resort to "threatening" him with a trade.

All that plus the Friedman interview and his past quotes, it seems reasonable to conclude that this player is either the most oblivious person in the world (which is unlikely as his agent would've advise him on such issues), or he isn't really all that commit to staying.

I think ultimately why he extended when he did was, partially, due to his declining performance. Had he played out the season and the playoff the way he ended last season, I doubt he gets $11.6m. He knew he was injured, his production had started to suffer as a result, it was no longer in his best interest to hold off. Is that the sole reason? Probably not, but I think its a factor.

I realize this is all just me speculating, I have no problem with anybody disagreeing with me. But none of us know what he was thinking throughout the last few years, why he said what he said, etc, so I think we are ALL speculating at this point. I hope those that disagree will at least respect the conclusion I have arrived at, I don't think I made any unreasonable assumption here. Of course I can be wrong, but until further information comes out, this to me is the most likely explanation.

 

[Hodgy]

I'll just address both replies at the same time.

I get what you both are saying, and there are definitely valid reasons for some of the actions he has taken. I don't blame him for not extending when Benning was still running the show, and I also don't hold it against him to extend as soon as Allvin took over because he understandably wants to see that things have changed.

However, he didn't need to do the Elliot Friedman interview, he didn't need to repeatedly and publicly say that he wants to play for a winning team. By doing all these, he is clearly putting the pressure on management that "you better put a winning team on the ice or else..." Had he played it quietly and just say "I'll let my agent handle it" or something like that, it would've been much less threatening.

By winter of 2023, the team was already winning, they extended his running mate (Kuzmenko), the dollar and terms the team is willing to offer is more than fair, management has proven to be competent, coaching has appeared to stabilized. What else is he waiting for at that time? A player that wants to play for a winner (which the team was at the time), offers max term at fair market value (if not more), and surrounded by good players, is refusing to sign? What other logical conclusion can you draw, aside from the fact that he isn't all that committed to staying?

Sure it is well within his right to wait until the summer like he wanted, but he and his agent HAS to know the kind of awkward situation that puts the team in. They cannot let Petey go into the offseason without a contract, and open themselves to an offer sheet. They cannot plan beyond the 2023-24 season unless they know whether their 1C is staying, and how much it would cost. They cannot risk the Tkachuk situation and torpedo the team's competitive window. He didn't HAVE TO request a trade, his (in)action inevitably leads to one unless he sign an extension before free agency. I can understand why management were feeling antsy about the situation and had to resort to "threatening" him with a trade.

All that plus the Friedman interview and his past quotes, it seems reasonable to conclude that this player is either the most oblivious person in the world (which is unlikely as his agent would've advise him on such issues), or he isn't really all that commit to staying.

I think ultimately why he extended when he did was, partially, due to his declining performance. Had he played out the season and the playoff the way he ended last season, I doubt he gets $11.6m. He knew he was injured, his production had started to suffer as a result, it was no longer in his best interest to hold off. Is that the sole reason? Probably not, but I think its a factor.

I realize this is all just me speculating, I have no problem with anybody disagreeing with me. But none of us know what he was thinking throughout the last few years, why he said what he said, etc, so I think we are ALL speculating at this point. I hope those that disagree will at least respect the conclusion I have arrived at, I don't think I made any unreasonable assumption here. Of course I can be wrong, but until further information comes out, this to me is the most likely explanation.

100% agree with this. @Bleach Clean puts a ton of stock in the rumours that JR threatened to trade him, and that Pettersson signed as a result which shows he always wanted to stay. But as I have said in the past, Pettersson and his agent would have always known that Pettersson would have been traded if he didn't re-sign long term. This is incredibly obvious to anyone, and would have obviously been the result should Pettersson not have re-signed. So I think its a lot less likely that the rumour threat of a trade was the reason Pettersson re-signed, but instead, I think it was more likely the fact that Pettersson had decided that he did indeed want to stay long term in Vancouver as the team and management had demonstrated competency PLUS, as you noted, that Pettersson's performance was starting to decline thereby making holding out any further far more risky.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I'll just address both replies at the same time.

I get what you both are saying, and there are definitely valid reasons for some of the actions he has taken. I don't blame him for not extending when Benning was still running the show, and I also don't hold it against him to extend as soon as Allvin took over because he understandably wants to see that things have changed.

However, he didn't need to do the Elliot Friedman interview, he didn't need to repeatedly and publicly say that he wants to play for a winning team. By doing all these, he is clearly putting the pressure on management that "you better put a winning team on the ice or else..." Had he played it quietly and just say "I'll let my agent handle it" or something like that, it would've been much less threatening.

By winter of 2023, the team was already winning, they extended his running mate (Kuzmenko), the dollar and terms the team is willing to offer is more than fair, management has proven to be competent, coaching has appeared to stabilized. What else is he waiting for at that time? A player that wants to play for a winner (which the team was at the time), offers max term at fair market value (if not more), and surrounded by good players, is refusing to sign? What other logical conclusion can you draw, aside from the fact that he isn't all that committed to staying?

Sure it is well within his right to wait until the summer like he wanted, but he and his agent HAS to know the kind of awkward situation that puts the team in. They cannot let Petey go into the offseason without a contract, and open themselves to an offer sheet. They cannot plan beyond the 2023-24 season unless they know whether their 1C is staying, and how much it would cost. They cannot risk the Tkachuk situation and torpedo the team's competitive window. He didn't HAVE TO request a trade, his (in)action inevitably leads to one unless he sign an extension before free agency. I can understand why management were feeling antsy about the situation and had to resort to "threatening" him with a trade.

No trade is inevitable when subject to re-signing; and "I want to win" is not a threat. That phrase was not a threat when the Sedins said it. They re-signed. Management also didn't trade Pettersson despite his reticence to re-sign early. They did interviews stating everything was on course. In both cases, it's what you read into the situation rather than what it presents. The lack of information leading to the most catastrophic conclusions (Tkachuk). Meanwhile, he re-signs for term, like the Sedins...

Precedent was/is the rule, not Tkachuk (the exception).

All that plus the Friedman interview and his past quotes, it seems reasonable to conclude that this player is either the most oblivious person in the world (which is unlikely as his agent would've advise him on such issues), or he isn't really all that commit to staying.

I think ultimately why he extended when he did was, partially, due to his declining performance. Had he played out the season and the playoff the way he ended last season, I doubt he gets $11.6m. He knew he was injured, his production had started to suffer as a result, it was no longer in his best interest to hold off. Is that the sole reason? Probably not, but I think its a factor.

I realize this is all just me speculating, I have no problem with anybody disagreeing with me. But none of us know what he was thinking throughout the last few years, why he said what he said, etc, so I think we are ALL speculating at this point. I hope those that disagree will at least respect the conclusion I have arrived at, I don't think I made any unreasonable assumption here. Of course I can be wrong, but until further information comes out, this to me is the most likely explanation.

Ask yourself: How could your assertion, based upon the lack of information, be likely when his actions have defied it? You said it yourself, he doesn't get out of jail, then or now. It was a bad team at the end of 2022-23. He can get his money elsewhere, and could have re-signed short term to leverage the rising cap (Matthews). He doesn't move and he doesn't angle for even more cash.

Earlier, he re-signed his bridge deal with a terrible GM (Benning) and team. Was winning a concern? Actually, he wanted a long-term deal then, they didn't have the cap. At nearly every turn, aside from the delay in in 2024-25, he followed precedent rather than defy it. He signed his bridge deal and career deals here.

So then why is the exceptional case (Tkachuk) treated as the baseline? Why are not the majority of cases involving star players the baseline? It's because he's inscrutable and people overemphasize his direct comments, even if they're platitudes. Take out those incorrect reads, and it's only the delay in 2024-25 that gives pause. That's it, and that's not enough.

 

[Hodgy]

Neither of us have any insight into what the players are doing off the ice. What we do know is that Petey's offseason training was interrupted by his knee injury, at his own admission. Other than that, I don't know how you are going to conclude Petey isn't "competing off the ice". What we agree on is that Petey is trying on the ice. This is what I take issue with people saying he isn't.

@bossram , I meant to respond to you more fully on the above and respond on the below, but the threads got out of control and were closed.

I agree, we don't know if Petey is "competing" off the ice, but we do have his own GM essentially question whether he is. So I don't think its enough to just say "We don't know", when we've seem an incredible drop in production from him over the last year and we have seen his GM call him out for basically not preparing well enough, not being mentally stronger, and essentially thinking it would be easier. So I think him not "competing" off the ice, or whatever you want to call it, is actually a pretty reasonable explanation for all or some of his struggles given what we know.

And I think its just really superficial to only look at his own ice efforts when concluding whether he's "competing" at large. Because we all know that a player's on ice performance during games is going to be significantly affected by all of the off ice preparation, and off season training, but also the on ice practicing. And if a player only competes during games, on ice, then there is going to be a good chance that that player struggles.

As you and I both agree, Petey is still playing like an elite defensive forward. This is an obvious and complete refutation of the "he doesn't compete" narrative some want to push. How is a guy "not trying" when he's still making good defensive reads, forechecking, backchecking, and blocking shots? It makes no sense.

For this conclusion to make sense, you are assuming that getting good defensive results means a player is
"competing" on both the defensive and offensive side of the game. And I think this is pretty obviously not necessarily true. In fact, with Pettersson, I think as a means of working himself out of his slump he has been consciously focusing on the defensive side of the game, and not surprisingly (because he's a very smart player), he's getting great results. But the reality is, it takes a whole ton more effort or "compete" to both excel defensively and offensively. Because lots of players end up cheating on one side of the puck to get better results on the other. When I watch Pettersson, I see a player much more focused on the defensive side of the puck right now, and given the slump he's in, I don't really blame him. I think he's been coached to work on the "fundamentals" with the assumption being that the rest of his game will follow.

But on the offensive side of the puck, I still see a player that isn't moving his feet enough and isn't attacking the play enough. Its hard to exactly say why this is the case, whether its confidence or an injury, or whether its lack of preparation, but I think its pretty clear. Obviously if its mostly a confidence thing then his effort or "compete" shouldn't be question but I am not sure if that's the case.

 

[bossram]

@bossram , I meant to respond to you more fully on the above and respond on the below, but the threads got out of control and were closed.

I agree, we don't know if Petey is "competing" off the ice, but we do have his own GM essentially question whether he is. So I don't think its enough to just say "We don't know", when we've seem an incredible drop in production from him over the last year and we have seen his GM call him out for basically not preparing well enough, not being mentally stronger, and essentially thinking it would be easier. So I think him not "competing" off the ice, or whatever you want to call it, is actually a pretty reasonable explanation for all or some of his struggles given what we know.

And I think its just really superficial to only look at his own ice efforts when concluding whether he's "competing" at large. Because we all know that a player's on ice performance during games is going to be significantly affected by all of the off ice preparation, and off season training, but also the on ice practicing. And if a player only competes during games, on ice, then there is going to be a good chance that that player struggles.


For this conclusion to make sense, you are assuming that getting good defensive results means a player is
"competing" on both the defensive and offensive side of the game. And I think this is pretty obviously not necessarily true. In fact, with Pettersson, I think as a means of working himself out of his slump he has been consciously focusing on the defensive side of the game, and not surprisingly (because he's a very smart player), he's getting great results. But the reality is, it takes a whole ton more effort or "compete" to both excel defensively and offensively. Because lots of players end up cheating on one side of the puck to get better results on the other. When I watch Pettersson, I see a player much more focused on the defensive side of the puck right now, and given the slump he's in, I don't really blame him. I think he's been coached to work on the "fundamentals" with the assumption being that the rest of his game will follow.

But on the offensive side of the puck, I still see a player that isn't moving his feet enough and isn't attacking the play enough. Its hard to exactly say why this is the case, whether its confidence or an injury, or whether its lack of preparation, but I think its pretty clear. Obviously if its mostly a confidence thing then his effort or "compete" shouldn't be question but I am not sure if that's the case.

There's not much more to discuss here. We just disagree. I don't think it's superficial to judge his "compete level" based on his on-ice actions, and mostly ignore his off-ice activity. I have no idea what he's doing off-ice and no way to verify it. It's not like he's Jake Virtanen hittin' Celebs during the Covid training camp. None of us can tell what he's doing, so how am I supposed to make a judgement on it? I am more inclined to believe Petey's side of the story (knee injury impacted his training) than the club's story, given management's horrific handling of several player injuries.

I just don't think there is some distinction between "competing" in the OZ vs. defensively. I don't think Petey reaches the offensive blueline and thinks, "well time to stop trying, but if the puck leaves the zone, I'm gonna backcheck!". I think he's lost confidence and it's making him tentative offensively. Whereas defensive impact is mostly a product of work ethic and good habits (i.e. "competing").

 

[sting101]

im not sure what thread it was posted in now, but it was about a week ago. he didnt use the words walking on egg shells, but he said one time petey was ignoring him one day and when he confronted him about it, petey said "oh you dont like being ignored?". or something along those lines. he then said he had learned that he has to be careful with petey to not hurt his feelings

Him as a roommate, sometimes he would ask me like a million questions at night. I would just be on my phone trying to relax and chill and I wouldn’t respond because I was just zoned in on my phone. He would get so mad at me and then all of a sudden he wouldn’t talk to me for like a day, he’s like “Oh, how does it feel now” and that happened two or three times. So I had to be careful with that not to hurt his feelings

I think his standards are crazy high and I mean good for him he’s a really neat and orderly person. I also think we were just on these crazy long road trips like we had a 16-day one and we were sick of each other. We must have been in one of those fights and he just got pissed at me

Quinn Hughes answers your questions: On rooming with Elias Pettersson, scooter riding in Vancouver and more

The Canucks star defenceman also touches on cooking, cars, clothes and the most annoying Tkachuk brother.

www.nytimes.com

 

[sandwichbird2023]

No trade is inevitable when subject to re-signing; and "I want to win" is not a threat. That phrase was not a threat when the Sedins said it. They re-signed. Management also didn't trade Pettersson despite his reticence to re-sign early. They did interviews stating everything was on course. In both cases, it's what you read into the situation rather than what it presents. The lack of information leading to the most catastrophic conclusions (Tkachuk). Meanwhile, he re-signs for term, like the Sedins...

Precedent was/is the rule, not Tkachuk (the exception).





Ask yourself: How could your assertion, based upon the lack of information, be likely when his actions have defied it? You said it yourself, he doesn't get out of jail, then or now. It was a bad team at the end of 2022-23. He can get his money elsewhere, and could have re-signed short term to leverage the rising cap (Matthews). He doesn't move and he doesn't angle for even more cash.

Earlier, he re-signed his bridge deal with a terrible GM (Benning) and team. Was winning a concern? Actually, he wanted a long-term deal then, they didn't have the cap. At nearly every turn, aside from the delay in in 2024-25, he followed precedent rather than defy it. He signed his bridge deal and career deals here.

So then why is the exceptional case (Tkachuk) treated as the baseline? Why are not the majority of cases involving star players the baseline? It's because he's inscrutable and people overemphasize his direct comments, even if they're platitudes. Take out those incorrect reads, and it's only the delay in 2024-25 that gives pause. That's it, and that's not enough.

Sorry I'm in a bit of a rush so I'll just reply in point forms:
- Every players will say they want to win, that isn't a secret nor special. It is the actions that speaks louder. However, not everybody will do an exclusive interview just to emphasis his desire to play for a winning team a year prior to his contract ending, while his team has been bad for a few years prior. The timing of that interview seems purposeful.
- Management never wanted to trade Petey, they see him as a core piece to build around. It wasn't until they were painted into a corner before they contemplated trading him (but I was never under the impression they were serious about that, only to use it as a pressure tactic to get Petey to sign). The last thing they want is to have Petey offersheeted and the whole world saying how incompetent they were to let it get there.
- Seems like a lot of his steps were following the Tkachuk route. We can disagree of our interpretation of it, but management were clearly so concerned that they were listening to offers for the 25 years old 100 pts elite 2 way C. In no world would they even bother picking up the phone from Carolina were they not legitimately concerned, so at least, in my opinion, management also felt like the Thachuk situation is possible (even likely?) here.
- Re-signing short term would've been akin to "Klingberg'ing himself". If his agent advise that, or allow him to go through with that, the agent should be fired immediately. You always always take the max money offered and deal with the rest later. Just look at Petey now, would he sniff $11.6m x 8 or better in the future, had he took a short term contract? That is why you don't see bridge deals anymore, why make less money for short term and take on all the risk, when you can leverage a big money long term contract?
- This kind of brings us to the Benning timeline. I'm not sure that Petey wants a long term deal at the time, but lets assume he did, that would be in his best interest to do so, whether he wants to stay here or not. Take the money first and figure the rest out later. You can always asked for a trade later on, but you mitigated the risk by taking a long term contract.
- I guess I am putting a lot of weight to his hesitancy during the period of October 2023 to early February 2024. He has everything he asked for at that point (winning team, term, money, etc) and yet he STILL refuse to sign. It was enough that reporters were asking about it all the time at every city the team goes, and becoming a distraction. Even he was annoyed, yet he STILL doesn't sign? He ought to have known what kind of bind he is putting his team and management in, and how it affects their strategy going into the trading deadline, yet he STILL doesn't sign? Petey isn't stupid and his agent isn't oblivious to the drama his status was creating, he knows there is no difference signing in November, January, March, June or later, if his intention is to stay in Vancouver. So why drag it out?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Sorry I'm in a bit of a rush so I'll just reply in point forms:
- Every players will say they want to win, that isn't a secret nor special. It is the actions that speaks louder. However, not everybody will do an exclusive interview just to emphasis his desire to play for a winning team a year prior to his contract ending, while his team has been bad for a few years prior. The timing of that interview seems purposeful.
- Management never wanted to trade Petey, they see him as a core piece to build around. It wasn't until they were painted into a corner before they contemplated trading him (but I was never under the impression they were serious about that, only to use it as a pressure tactic to get Petey to sign). The last thing they want is to have Petey offersheeted and the whole world saying how incompetent they were to let it get there.
- Seems like a lot of his steps were following the Tkachuk route. We can disagree of our interpretation of it, but management were clearly so concerned that they were listening to offers for the 25 years old 100 pts elite 2 way C. In no world would they even bother picking up the phone from Carolina were they not legitimately concerned, so at least, in my opinion, management also felt like the Thachuk situation is possible (even likely?) here.
- Re-signing short term would've been akin to "Klingberg'ing himself". If his agent advise that, or allow him to go through with that, the agent should be fired immediately. You always always take the max money offered and deal with the rest later. Just look at Petey now, would he sniff $11.6m x 8 or better in the future, had he took a short term contract? That is why you don't see bridge deals anymore, why make less money for short term and take on all the risk, when you can leverage a big money long term contract?
- This kind of brings us to the Benning timeline. I'm not sure that Petey wants a long term deal at the time, but lets assume he did, that would be in his best interest to do so, whether he wants to stay here or not. Take the money first and figure the rest out later. You can always asked for a trade later on, but you mitigated the risk by taking a long term contract.
- I guess I am putting a lot of weight to his hesitancy during the period of October 2023 to early February 2024. He has everything he asked for at that point (winning team, term, money, etc) and yet he STILL refuse to sign. It was enough that reporters were asking about it all the time at every city the team goes, and becoming a distraction. Even he was annoyed, yet he STILL doesn't sign? He ought to have known what kind of bind he is putting his team and management in, and how it affects their strategy going into the trading deadline, yet he STILL doesn't sign? Petey isn't stupid and his agent isn't oblivious to the drama his status was creating, he knows there is no difference signing in November, January, March, June or later, if his intention is to stay in Vancouver. So why drag it out?

In sequence:

- I'm glad you have acknowledged that players saying they want to win is not special/abnormal. That shows you are ahead of some people still stuck on that statement alone. Next, if he makes that mundane statement via IMac instead of Friedman, are you still suspicious of timing or is the boat interview with Friedman itself the outlier? If it's the latter, you have your answer.

- We agree that management pressured Pettersson to re-sign at the TDL. He left them in an uncertain situation with little indication he would re-sign until the CAR rumour came out. It's fair to question why he did it.

- The Tkachuk situation required a team decline, a star leaving, and a trade request. Here, the team was already bad, and there were no red flags behind the scenes. A cordial relationship. I do think the team hedged against uncertainty with the Lindholm deal, but an insistence to talk in the offseason is not the same as requesting a trade. That's a suboptimal situation rather than a disastrous one. There were steps that had to happen before Tkachuk 2.0.

- Normally, I would agree, but it's the opposite for elite players. Matthews and Marner have likely made more total money this way.

- The long-term money on an elite player is better for the team, not the player. Look at Jack Hughes' contract, it's amazing. Quinn Hughes' contract!? Pettersson's talent was evident early, he wanted a long-term deal (to his detriment, same agent as Quinn) and they couldn't do it. He still re-signed on a bad team. Fast forward, and he re-signs again for max term on a team he cannot predict will be good for 8 years.

- You're right, he had a winning team, and he still didn't re-sign. It was puzzling and it was the key time he broke from all precedent. That's the time even I started questioning his intent. But I kept thinking: What has actually changed aside from his insistence on doing it in the offseason? Nothing. Yes, it sucked for management, but is that really his problem when negotiating against management? And look at how he re-signed? It was management pulling a maneuver against him. Is that a guy who wants to leave or just someone that is also negotiating (playing poker)?

Even now, after all the tactics and Allvin calling Pettersson out for his preparation, he asks to stay and they agree. Why do they do it if they have hint that he's going to Tkachuk out of here? Clearly, being slow to commit is not the same as not wanting to commit, to him or Allvin.

 

[andora]

A quality scorer to play behind him, like Horvat...?

But yes, it's going to be a challenge to compete. One thing that was brought up by Drance (I recommend you listen to yesterday's pod) is that the preferred deployment here is Garland running the 3rd line. Which means, the team's #5 and #6 top6 forwards are missing. PDG and Karlsson won't do. That's with Miller no less. And so, the greater impact might come from just resolving those positions.

Pettresson may not get his skilled winger, but maybe they can recreate that player in the aggregate with a full top6 complement.





No, what you said from the beginning is don't draw a conclusion. Here, you're accepting a conclusion.

Based upon the information we have, Miller is at least open to leaving. Which means, he is choosing not to A) Convey his desire to stay and B) Exercise his NTC to ensure he stays. Instead, he is talking to other teams. Trade rumours abound. This then suggests a desire for a fresh start (IMac).

This all goes away if he conveys that his desire to stay is greater than the team's desire to move him, or his own desire to move.

I believe what I question initially was stating things as fact when we don't know.

If all your comments were just missing the words 'my assumption is' or "my guess is" while it being your meaning and that's all it is. But if you're stating these as facts based on piecing together this or that then that's what I don't follow.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I believe what I question initially was stating things as fact when we don't know.

If all your comments were just missing the words 'my assumption is' or "my guess is" while it being your meaning and that's all it is. But if you're stating these as facts based on piecing together this or that then that's what I don't follow.

What you did was question Miller being open to or wanting a trade. "We don't have a clue". You then said "Pettersson's [intent to stay] leaked to save face". Which, ironically, you did not qualify with "My guess" or "My assumption"... You then even went so far as to speculate that Miller probably doesn't want to block management's desire to move him... How do you know?

Point being, this is a place where reasonable assertion passes. We don't know Miller's private motivation or communication. We likely never will. We can, however, infer what his motivation may be from external intel.

The default qualifiers you are expected for direct statements have never existed (iirc).