Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

SillyRabbit

Trix Are For Kids
Jan 3, 2006
9,430
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I don't understand the whole "just work it out" talk in a situation where there is an obvious and constant aggressor (I call it bullying, I know some won't)...how do you just "work it out"? A team with true leaders (management/coaches/players) would have stepped in and told JT to just "stop it or else..." Such a weird case of victim blaming and coddling the aggressor.
If Pettersson was playing at the level he's capable of, Miller would have no reason to go after him.

And if Pettersson was playing at the level he's capable of, the team would stand up for him and shut down Miller real quick.

It's almost certain that the reason nobody is standing up for him is because they agree with Miller. They're getting fed up with Pettersson underperforming and hoping that this "tough love" or whatever you want to call it, lights a fire underneath him.

They've obviously tried the "gentle parenting" way for the past several months to no avail.

Not to defend Miller here however, because he himself needs to focus on putting in maximal effort and producing offensively before he starts calling out people.

Last season Miller had the right to point fingers, this season he needs to focus on his own play.
 

lawrence

Registered User
May 19, 2012
16,642
7,535
If Pettersson was playing at the level he's capable of, Miller would have no reason to go after him.
Miller shouldn't be going after one. This is the model way of doing things in our locker room. Did Trevor Linden, Daniel Sedin, Tanev , and all our assistant captains in the past go after another player like this? He has no reason period to go after any player. That's not his job.
 

SillyRabbit

Trix Are For Kids
Jan 3, 2006
9,430
9,706
Miller shouldn't be going after one. This is the model way of doing things in our locker room. Did Trevor Linden, Daniel Sedin, Tanev , and all our assistant captains in the past go after another player like this? He has no reason period to go after any player. That's not his job.
Technically we don't know what those guys did or didn't do.

We probably shouldn't have ever found out about what Miller is doing in the locker room either. Shouldn't have leaked.

But like I said, I'm not defending Miller, just explaining why I think nobody is really stopping him.

Management, coaching staff, the players, the literal captain and best player Quinn Hughes, they all know what's going on. And they're letting it happen. So they obviously have their reasons, whether we agree or not.
 
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supercanuck

Registered User
Mar 2, 2016
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Technically we don't know what those guys did or didn't do.

We probably shouldn't have ever found out about what Miller is doing in the locker room either. Shouldn't have leaked.

But like I said, I'm not defending Miller, just explaining why I think nobody is really stopping him.

Management, coaching staff, the players, the literal captain and best player Quinn Hughes, they all know what's going on. And they're letting it happen. So they obviously have their reasons, whether we agree or not.

Hockey culture, or sport culture in general, is pretty gross when it comes to letting things happen though.

As I mentioned before, my hate of bullies probably taints my view a bit. In 4 years of this someone should have stepped up and just said STOP IT! Heck, Brad Richardson who only played 14 games with JT told him that straight up. You would think another "leader" from the org should have just stepped in and ended it.
 
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PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
13,215
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Technically we don't know what those guys did or didn't do.

We probably shouldn't have ever found out about what Miller is doing in the locker room either. Shouldn't have leaked.

But like I said, I'm not defending Miller, just explaining why I think nobody is really stopping him.
Well..... he was sent on a personal paid leave.

Or a time out.

Obviously speculation that is evil because "personal reasons" clause has been envoked.
Management, coaching staff, the players, the literal captain and best player Quinn Hughes, they all know what's going on. And they're letting it happen. So they obviously have their reasons, whether we agree or not.
This is some seriously flawed logic.

You dont know what has happened and who has tried to stop it or has not tried to stop it....
 
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SillyRabbit

Trix Are For Kids
Jan 3, 2006
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This is some seriously flawed logic.

You dont know what has happened and who has tried to stop it or has not tried to stop it....
Nobody knows, but it's pretty safe to assume that if Miller was going rogue and nobody supported his actions, then it wouldn't be Pettersson who's being called out by management and Pettersson would absolutely not be involved in any trade rumors whatsoever.
 
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kanucks25

Chris Tanev #1 Fan
Nov 29, 2013
7,603
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Surrey, BC
Miller shouldn't be going after one. This is the model way of doing things in our locker room. Did Trevor Linden, Daniel Sedin, Tanev , and all our assistant captains in the past go after another player like this? He has no reason period to go after any player. That's not his job.

What are you talking about?

It's common knowledge that on good teams the players keep each other accountable.

We've heard this sentiment from hundreds of players via interviews and whatnot across all sports and eras. Teammates need to push and challenge each other to be better.

Now we don't know if whatever Miller is doing/saying to Petey is out of the ordinary or crossing the line. We do know that at least one person has told Miller to go easier, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than one, but it also seems that it's never been so bad that somebody has had to step in and put a firm stop to it. Obviously coaches and management didn't think it's that big of an issue considering they re-signed both long-term (including Petey agreeing to signing long-term after Miller had already locked himself in).
 
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Coffee

Take one step towards the direction you want to go
Nov 12, 2021
9,714
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Saw trade proposal on Facebook of alll places. NYI - we get Noah Dobson Danny Nelson and a 1st for EP. Highly amused.
Should have pulled the trigger and made it a done deal. No need to consult us when it’s a deal that rich
 

Hodgy

Registered User
Feb 23, 2012
5,042
5,338
Your take is at odds with common sense.

Rutherford offered direct testimony, you chose Brisson's Baghdad Bob speech. You chose it over the insurance policy (Lindholm trade), the CAR rumour (Friedman, Dhaliwal), Rutherford's 'direct testimony' implying that the trade scared Pettersson, Pettersson not re-signing until the TDL etc... What evidence did you analyze? All you did was triple down on a bad take because the majority of evidence spoke against your working theory. It's the same here.

In the debate on why Pettersson signed, I preferred Brisson’s evidence on the matter over the speculation of JR or rumours. This is a logical decision since Brisson quite obviously would have a better idea as to what Pettersson was thinking than JR’s speculation, and with respect to the rumours you submitted as evidence, the presumption is the direct evidence is more reliable than rumours. Ultimately, JR’s speculation and the rumours could be correct, but there is no “selection bias” in my decision to prefer Brisson’s evidence. In fact, selection bias for evidence would presumes all of the evidence is on a usual nature and literally the whole debate we had was about what evidence to prefer.

You’ve consistently misapplied the term selection bias in the context of evidence notwithstanding my numerous explanations.

Here, Allvin said something that aligns with what you already believe (Pettersson not seriously injured enough so as to have it affect his play) and are working backwards from that presumption.

I’m not working back from that presumption. This is just your unfounded speculation. I’ve analyzed the evidence and even then have acknowledged many times that I don’t definitively know. What I have said is that on a balance of probabilities I don’t think an injury is predominantly responsible for his poor play. Of course, I could be wrong. Most posters who take issue with my posts on this subject wrongly mischaracterize my position as being more absolutely and bold than it actually is.

Therefore, anything that fits, like Allvin calling out the player, is greenlit. Anything that doesn't, like Pettersson confirming the existence of the injury when returning, is red lighted/argued away. This is not analysis, it's confirmation bias.
I am analyzing each piece of evidence and drawing my own conclusions. Your view that it’s all “confirmation bias” is a lazy way of trying to dismiss my arguments without actually addressing them. Imagine if an litigator just told the judge the other side’s argument was “confirmation bias”. lunfounded and pure speculation.

And how have I “red lit” Pettersson’s own comments? You don’t have to argue away Pettersson basically saying his knees fine and there is no pain. You can interpret Pettersson’s own comments in a number of ways, but it isn’t an unreasonable interpretation that Pettersson himself viewed the injury as “insignificant”, or as he put it, nagging.

And ditto with my analysis of Alvin’s comments.

There is a disconnect between Allvin/Tocchet and Pettersson with regards to injuries and how injuries should affect play:
- Tocchet called out Pettersson's play in the playoffs (while he was injured)
- Pettersson disclosed an injury in the year end presser (shocking management per Johnston)
- Pettersson trains around said injury, but is ready to start
- His play still isn't right
- Pettersson leaves team with injury (same or otherwise) on Dec 23rd, 2024
- Allvin calls him out for preparation while he's injured on Dec 31, 2024
- Throughout, other players have played through injures: Hughes against SJ, Miller early on.

Allvin's preperation comment aligns with Tocchet's 'everyone is dinged up' comment in the playoffs. They're both frustrated with Pettersson, and were surprised by his injury disclosure. Pettersson re-iterated the presence of the injury when coming back. Their medical staff remains highly suspect. Pettersson's play seems impaired (correlation). Based upon that information alone you have to allow room for a disconnect between parties. And if you do, then the logic holds.
Allvin’s comments went way farther than just preparation and were extremely damning. If Alvin believed Pettersson’s poor play was predominately caused by an injury or if Pettersson has expressed he had a significant injury, then why the hell would the GM who just signed him to the the largest contract in team history publicly blast and embarrass him? It makes no logical sense and you continue to not address this issue. A far more likely explanation is that Pettersson hasn’t expressed that the injury is significant and that Allvin doesn’t believe it is, and that after the team trying a number of things to try to motivate and spur Pettersson to change his ways, the GM publicly put pressure on him.

Did disagreeing on the extent of the injury prevent Tocchet from calling Pettersson out in the playoffs?
We don’t know that there ever was a disagreement on the extent of his injury.

He had already signed his 8 year agreement. No? Then why it would it prevent Allvin from doing so now? While Pettersson is injured, no less...They don't respect Pettersson's assessment of his own injuries.
It all makes sense if you assume that Pettersson hasn’t expressed that his injury is significant and that Alvin also agrees, and that the team is frustrated with all of the things Alvin stated in his interview with IMac. Your interpretation requires Alvin to behave in an entirely irrational way which is possible but unlikely.
 

shottasasa

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
901
756
Canada
I just saw the replay of the penalty they called on Hoglander as they had the wrong one on Prime. My god that’s a weak call, never mind in the last minute of a tie game. That’s a shame for Hoglander as I thought it had been another decent game and he was trending up.

The Canucks really misses Pettersson’s defensive game. Sutter and Blueger are awesome, but they’ve been playing above their normal role for a while and it’s beginning to show. Same for most of these Dmen, they’re just playing a spot or two above what they can handle for more than a few games.
 

VanJack

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
23,220
16,756
From all reports, Pettersson will be back in the lineup Wednesday in Washington. First time Petey and Miller have been in lineup centering separate lines in a long time.

And they're going to need him. The Caps have been dynamite at home so far this year.
 

lawrence

Registered User
May 19, 2012
16,642
7,535
Technically we don't know what those guys did or didn't do.

We probably shouldn't have ever found out about what Miller is doing in the locker room either. Shouldn't have leaked.

But like I said, I'm not defending Miller, just explaining why I think nobody is really stopping him.

Management, coaching staff, the players, the literal captain and best player Quinn Hughes, they all know what's going on. And they're letting it happen. So they obviously have their reasons, whether we agree or not.
based on what brad Richardson said. it seems like JT miller is the type of guy that will "push" the limits onto what he says on his teamates. I
What are you talking about?

It's common knowledge that on good teams the players keep each other accountable.

We've heard this sentiment from hundreds of players via interviews and whatnot across all sports and eras. Teammates need to push and challenge each other to be better.

Now we don't know if whatever Miller is doing/saying to Petey is out of the ordinary or crossing the line. We do know that at least one person has told Miller to go easier, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than one, but it also seems that it's never been so bad that somebody has had to step in and put a firm stop to it. Obviously coaches and management didn't think it's that big of an issue considering they re-signed both long-term (including Petey agreeing to signing long-term after Miller had already locked himself in).
brad Richardson went on air saying, without saying who the other player was, that JT Miller is a going to break players if he "keeps pushing them like this"



"We love the guy, but I told him that if he keeps pushing players like this, they are going to break"
brad Richardson referring to JT miller.

i will try to post the video. saw it on reddit a few days ago.

but no argument btw, we don't know what he said to Petey, or whats going on. But now a former teamate has confirmed through his own words that JT MIller can be a guy plays tough love. I'm not a fan of this. If its something nobody does, JT Miller shouldn't be doing it.
 
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