Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - Please, Be Civil

[JT Milker]

Sorry Im not going to go through your posts again.

Its shit like the half of a quote you used. While we both know you were forces to read the entire thing and proceeded to just choose the bit you needed...

Makes sense, making conclusions off of little to no information is your MO.

 

[Curm]

EP40 is currently the sixth highest paid player in the NHL, I don't think it's out of line for the team and fans to expect him to consistently perform to that contract level.

I also think it's fair for the team and fans to question if any drop in performance is due to tendonitis or "igotpaiditis".

Hopefully he figures it out, if not, all good if they move on from him.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Makes sense, making conclusions off of little to no information is your MO.

Yes. That is exactly what happened here.

You win a special price now.

EP40 is currently the sixth highest paid player in the NHL, I don't think it's out of line for the team and fans to expect him to consistently perform to that contract level.

I also think it's fair for the team and fans to question if any drop in performance is due to tendonitis or "igotpaiditis".

Hopefully he figures it out, if not, all good if they move on from him.

What tendonitis?

He has been 100% healthy forever.

 

[JT Milker]

Yes. That is exactly what happened here.

You win a special price now.


What tendonitis?

He has been 100% healthy forever.

This is like the strawman olympics.

 

[Bobby9]

If Buffalo helps us get out of this monstrous 11.6M liability we will be forever indebted to them

 

[Bobby9]

This is like the strawman olympics.

Dude why are you waiting your time.

This poster has pretended to have a PhD in Scandinavian body language, then a pHD in Swedish cultural anthropology, then been a kinesiologist and now is a analytics professor for sports.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This is like the strawman olympics.

Okidoki

 

[Hodgy]

Okidoki

No one really wants to debate you as you seem certain that an injury is causing his poor play, and its unlikely that anything anyone says to you is going to change your mind. So I'd just move on if I were you.

I'm more interested in analyzing the evidence around whether or not an injury is causing his poor play. I've said many times that I don't know. I think people have a hard time with this though as they are more interested in simplistic binary conclusions rather than really digging into the evidence to assess the degree upon which it supports either conclusions.

Ultimately, people shouldn't be certain either way since we don't have concrete evidence. But things are really polarized on here and its gotten to the point where its been suggested that if you can't see that Pettersson's poor skating has been caused by an injury that you are debating in bad faith.

 

[racerjoe]

No one really wants to debate you as you seem certain that an injury is causing his poor play, and its unlikely that anything anyone says to you is going to change your mind. So I'd just move on if I were you.

I'm more interested in analyzing the evidence around whether or not an injury is causing his poor play. I've said many times that I don't know. I think people have a hard time with this though as they are more interested in simplistic binary conclusions rather than really digging into the evidence to assess the degree upon which it supports either conclusions.

Ultimately, people shouldn't be certain either way since we don't have concrete evidence. But things are really polarized on here and its gotten to the point where its been suggested that if you can't see that Pettersson's poor skating has been caused by an injury that you are debating in bad faith.

Maybe I have it wrong here, but then why ignore the skating and shooting stats?

Maybe I have it wrong here, but then why ignore the skating and shooting stats?

Yes I am quoting myself… but I just wanted to state I think it is currently more a recovery issue from injuries than a current injury itself.

 

[Hodgy]

Maybe I have it wrong here, but then why ignore the skating and shooting stats?

Personally, I'm not ignoring those stats, and the merits of those stats have been discussed a ton. Pretty obviously the those stats don't answer the "why" which is the real question. Like I've said a bunch of times, my big issue is that he skated poorly in his previous long slump and there was no obvious injury to explain that, so I find it hard to necessarily conclude that his poor skating in this slump must be explained by an injury.

 

[racerjoe]

Personally, I'm not ignoring those stats, and the merits of those stats have been discussed a ton. Pretty obviously the those stats don't answer the "why" which is the real question. Like I've said a bunch of times, my big issue is that he skated poorly in his previous long slump and there was no obvious injury to explain that, so I find it hard to necessarily conclude that his poor skating in this slump must be explained by an injury.

We have disagreed greatly on this point, but it just lines up with his previous injury.

I will admit maybe I remember it worse than it was, but we know he had an injury than, and we know he had an injury now. I think he looks better now for sure than that season or earlier this year. But it still lines up and without other information I prefer to think horse than zebra

 

[PuckMunchkin]

No one really wants to debate you as you seem certain that an injury is causing his poor play, and its unlikely that anything anyone says to you is going to change your mind. So I'd just move on if I were you.

I dont know.

Seems like a lot of people are willing to engage. Most with very flawed logic.

I'm more interested in analyzing the evidence around whether or not an injury is causing his poor play. I've said many times that I don't know. I think people have a hard time with this though as they are more interested in simplistic binary conclusions rather than really digging into the evidence to assess the degree upon which it supports either conclusions.

I've yet to see anyone "dig in to the evidence."

I've seen a bunch of people start with the premise that he is or was not injured and then work their way back towards that. Picking what ever evidence or partial quote fits that narrative.

I see people on (im pressuming your side of the argument) completely ignoring his skating speed plumeting and his shot velocity gone.

Ultimately, people shouldn't be certain either way since we don't have concrete evidence. But things are really polarized on here and its gotten to the point where its been suggested that if you can't see that Pettersson's poor skating has been caused by an injury that you are debating in bad faith.

Yes. I guess TECHNICALLY he could be doing it on purpose and we just cant ever never know but this type of scepticism makes debating anything pointless. But this is a complete non sequitur. We cant ever know anything for 100% certainty but that does not mean that anything can be true.

If we stay within reason, and not go irrationally sceptic, your statement is fine example of false balance fallacy.

We know plenty:
- We know very well how patellar tendonitis behaves.
- We know that last time EP had a similar slump he was injured.*
- We have EDGE data to support the eye test that he does not have his legs.

We have anecdotal evidence that he supposedly was slow during his first slump too. I guess thats something that we know? I dont remember him being slow. I remember him fighting the puck and looking frustrated and not skating hard at times.

Nothing I am debating is in bad faith.

I think it seems that way to you because I understand the type of injury he is dealing with very well and I work with pro athletes who have this issue. I have knowledge that you do not that leads me to conclusions.

I think you have biases that I do not that leads you to your conclusions.


Ive noted there is an awful lot of overlap between the "EP is healthy" conspirators of last season and the people who are arguing like you are now. This leads me to believe there is more ego involved that is clouding your ability to think clearly.

(And lot of them were the same people who did the same when EP had his wrist issue.*)

Admitting you got shit wrong can be hard for most people. So it seems. But it does not need to be.

 

[Hodgy]

We have disagreed greatly on this point, but it just lines up with his previous injury.

I will admit maybe I remember it worse than it was, but we know he had an injury than, and we know he had an injury now. I think he looks better now for sure than that season or earlier this year. But it still lines up and without other information I prefer to think horse than zebra

His previous injury during his slump was a minor wrist injury though. No one has been able to explain this other than: (1) straight up refuting that he skated poorly in the last slump while not being able to provide an contemporaneous evidence to this effect (and of course this contention is entirely inconsistent with the contemporaneous eye witness accounts from this time); or (2) making far fetched claims that his minor wrist injury, for which he missed no games, somehow led to his skating to decline significantly.

 

[JT Milker]

I dont know.

Seems like a lot of people are willing to engage. Most with very flawed logic.

I've yet to see anyone "dig in to the evidence."

I've seen a bunch of people start with the premise that he is or was not injured and then work their way back towards that. Picking what ever evidence or partial quote fits that narrative.

I see people on (im pressuming your side of the argument) completely ignoring his skating speed plumeting and his shot velocity gone.

Yes. I guess TECHNICALLY he could be doing it on purpose and we just cant ever never know but this type of scepticism makes debating anything pointless. But this is a complete non sequitur. We cant ever know anything for 100% certainty but that does not mean that anything can be true.

If we stay within reason, and not go irrationally sceptic, your statement is fine example of false balance fallacy.

We know plenty:
- We know very well how patellar tendonitis behaves.
- We know that last time EP had a similar slump he was injured.*
- We have EDGE data to support the eye test that he does not have his legs.

We have anecdotal evidence that he supposedly was slow during his first slump too. I guess thats something that we know? I dont remember him being slow. I remember him fighting the puck and looking frustrated and not skating hard at times.

Nothing I am debating is in bad faith.

I think it seems that way to you because I understand the type of injury he is dealing with very well and I work with pro athletes who have this issue. I have knowledge that you do not that leads me to conclusions.

I think you have biases that I do not that leads you to your conclusions.


Ive noted there is an awful lot of overlap between the "EP is healthy" conspirators of last season and the people who are arguing like you are now. This leads me to believe there is more ego involved that is clouding your ability to think clearly.

(And lot of them were the same people who did the same when EP had his wrist issue.*)

Admitting you got shit wrong can be hard for most people. So it seems. But it does not need to be.

Why complain about flawed logic while ignoring that he has literally stated he feels great? This is like Occam’s razor exemplified lol.

You can believe he’s still injured based on edge data but it’s not any more valid than believing he loses his motor when he’s slumping.

And because I have to repeat myself every time I disagree with you, I don’t know what the answer is and don’t care.

 

[Leif Rohlin]

I think it's pretty clear now that he is dealing with an injury that's limiting him to some extent.

In the worst of his slump he wasn't skating well, but he also just didn't look very engaged most of the time and wasn't moving his feet, and it appeared there was something going on psychologically.

In the last few weeks his play has improved significantly. For the most part he's been much more engaged, moving his feet, and looks like he wants the puck and wants to attack... yet there's still something missing from his skating. The extra gear just isn't there right now and it's not from a lack of effort.

 

[racerjoe]

His previous injury during his slump was a minor wrist injury though. No one has been able to explain this other than: (1) straight up refuting that he skated poorly in the last slump while not being able to provide an contemporaneous evidence to this effect (and of course this contention is entirely inconsistent with the contemporaneous eye witness accounts from this time); or (2) making far fetched claims that his minor wrist injury, for which he missed no games, somehow led to his skating to decline significantly.

I can admit I was wrong about the timeline, but the missed no games part is such a bad faith argument. He missed no games with his knee injury too, but even if we just look at last year it’s pretty clear he plays through pain, even at the cost of bad play. Also the injury was at the very end of the season where he had all summer to recover.

As my point is lack of training time, or not being able to, it still fits fine.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Why complain about flawed logic while ignoring that he has literally stated he feels great? This is like Occam’s razor exemplified lol.

You can believe he’s still injured based on edge data but it’s not any more valid than believing he loses his motor when he’s slumping.

And because I have to repeat myself every time I disagree with you, I don’t know what the answer is and don’t care.

Only way to think that is to be biased against the player for what ever reason.

If you follow the facts, you dont end up with that opinion.

But this thread is great for finding people to put on your ignore list. AKA the EP injury conspiracy theory list.

 

[F A N]

I really soured on EP when he had to be threatened to be traded to Carolina to sign a deal here. I can't imagine the dressing room being happy with that, and especially when he shit the bed when it counted while most everyone else stepped up.

To be fair, for whatever reason, Petey said he didn't want to negotiate a contract in season. Now usually that stance is done to get the team to pay up but at the end of the day a contract is a contract. There's no obligation to sign an extension. I would image that most of his teammates understands that it's a business. As long as Petey is honest to his teammates most should be fine. People will think what they think of course. As for not stepping up in the playoffs. That goes to the debate we're having. His teammates should know what Petey is going through. If their impression is that Petey is 100% healthy or just suffering from a bit of soreness then ya I would imagine that they would be upset with his playoff performance. It was a missed opportunity. But if their impression is that Petey is struggling (physical or otherwise) then I would image that most guys in the room would be understanding. But it is subjective. Hockey players are praised for being warriors. Boeser tapes up his finger and scores goals etc.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

Petey last game had more step in his skates no question, he was much more engaged than I had seen from his 3 previous games, he was also shooting more or attempting to shoot more, but I remember in the 2nd period he took a wrist shot, he had all the time in the world, and my reaction after was, that's all you could put on that shot... really... It was so weak, he doesn't have enough lower body strength it seems especially seeing that shot. Which doesn't make sense when he had 103mph slapshot at the allstar game 2 seasons ago.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

I really soured on EP when he had to be threatened to be traded to Carolina to sign a deal here. I can't imagine the dressing room being happy with that, and especially when he shit the bed when it counted while most everyone else stepped up. That said, if there's any appetite to trade hi, hopefully there's a good D coming back. I can only dream of Dahlin.

I highly doubt the dressing room cares about that.

If anything, Miller quitting for almost a month is probably a bigger deal

 

[I am toxic]

I find if I like a player, I can rationalize any shortcomings away.

Conversely*, if I dislike a player, no amount of reason nor evidence will justify their poor play.

Who am I kidding, I dislike all players and have nothing but negative criticism for their play and off ice behaviour.

*yeah, it's a word you maroons, not a shoe. Look it up and learn english good like me

 

[Hodgy]

I can admit I was wrong about the timeline, but the missed no games part is such a bad faith argument. He missed no games with his knee injury too, but even if we just look at last year it’s pretty clear he plays through pain, even at the cost of bad play. Also the injury was at the very end of the season where he had all summer to recover.

How is it "bad faith"? That's a ridiculous accusation. I mention that he missed no games for his wrist injury to show that it was a relatively minor injury and not something that could explain his poor skating. My point isn't that he didn't have a wrist injury, not an injury someone would reasonably expect to significantly affect his skating.

As my point is lack of training time, or not being able to, it still fits fine.

It doesn't fit fine. You haven't reasonably demonstrated why a minor wrist injury, where he missed no time, would result in him to skate poorly.

 

[racerjoe]

How is it "bad faith"? That's a ridiculous accusation. I mention that he missed no games for his wrist injury to show that it was a relatively minor injury and not something that could explain his poor skating. My point isn't that he didn't have a wrist injury, not an injury someone would reasonably expect to significantly affect his skating.


It doesn't fit fine. You haven't reasonably demonstrated why a minor wrist injury, where he missed no time, would result in him to skate poorly.

Do you consider Hornell’s injury minor?

He hurt his wrist at the end of the season, so missing games wasn’t really an option. I showed his knee injury, what would that be classified as?

Hroneks injury has the same recovery time as Petterssons wrist injury, but he hurt it when he had to miss games.

Missing games or not missing games is not a great barometer, hell a few years ago Bergeron missed no games then was hospitalized soon as the season ended with a few injuries.

 

[Hodgy]

Do you consider Hornell’s injury minor?

He hurt his wrist at the end of the season, so missing games wasn’t really an option. I showed his knee injury, what would that be classified as?

Hroneks injury has the same recovery time as Petterssons wrist injury, but he hurt it when he had to miss games.

Missing games or not missing games is not a great barometer, hell a few years ago Bergeron missed no games then was hospitalized soon as the season ended with a few injuries.

It's not just if it is minor or not, and whether you miss games. That's part of it. But the bigger more important part is that its a wrist injury. It wouldn't have stopped him from any skating training, or any real core training. So it just isn't reasonable to think it likely that his wrist injury caused him to skate poorly in his last slump. Debating exactly how minor his wrist injury was, when trying to figure out if it significantly affected his skating, is a waste of time. Its a moot point.

If we were talking about a knee injury, like his current injury, then for sure the severity of the injury is extremely important. But it just isn't the case when we are talking a wrist injury.

 

[crowfish]

Is there a documented case in NHL history of a player losing significant speed & shot power in the middle of a season without it being injury-related? Because that is essentially what you are claiming happened with Pettersson if you don't buy that he is injured.

Is he choosing not to skate or shoot hard? And he started choosing to do that about 20 games before signing the biggest contract of his life?

You can either use common sense, or you can believe that the Canucks are the unluckiest franchise in the history of the sport who had a player look elite for 400 games, and then turn off the switch (before signing a deal)

Seriously it's such a stupid theory.