Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - A Forward Who Scores

[Munber1]

I think he needs to take any and all focus away from trying to get points. Forget about the points.
If he thinks getting points is what is going to take any emotional pressure off of him, then he's likely
going to feel less inspired to make those plays or put in the effort and hard work that isn't likely to
add to his point total. He's not going to play inspired hockey if he doesn't feel rewarded for his work
in some way, and if the thought of getting points is what inspires him, that won't work. He somehow has
to find a way to be proud of himself for every hard working, fast skating play he makes.

 

[mriswith]

And if there was even any real chance that the injury was signifncant, then why wouldn't management be more protective of Pettersson?

What happened with Mik?

This argument has been addressed and disregarded countless times because it isn't a very compelling argument. Not only has he played with different better players at even strength over the past 30-40 games or so (inclusive of playoffs) as @MS has already outlined, he's also played on the top powerplay throughout his slump.

It actually hasn't. "X player also has one bad winger" isn't addressing it. "He looked bad on the PP too" isn't addressing it. "X player scored 100 points" when EP got 90 isn't addressing it. "He's still bad this season" isn't addressing it, I'm talking about last year during his half season slump.

And there is a big difference between playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results and looking bad doing it, and playing with bad players, getting bad statistical results but actually looking good.

This is why I referenced Garland. 50 ES points his first season and looked unbelievable until Green started screwing with him, causing basically a 1.5 year slump. Please see my description of this event in an earlier post for more detail before replying to this.

With that all said, I do accept that linemates matters and I am not trying to argue that having better consistent linemates with Pettersson wouldn't help to improve his play. But also true is the fact that Pettersson is now making $11.6 million per season, and frankly, needs to drive his line better.

I agree with this. He needs to be better for us to have a chance at a cup.

I mean, taking one sentence from probably tens of thousands of words @MS has typed on this subject seems pretty reductive.

His viewpoint is reductive. That's my entire problem with his argument. The quote is accurate.

Your opinion is already far more nuanced than his so even if you disagree with me on the details and the severity of his injury, we may actually not have much to go back and forth on.

The guy who compared Petey to Loui Eriksson and Huberdeau can't handle you suggesting that Lindholm last year, while on Petey's line, was struggling like a 4th liner. Hmmm...weird

A sentiment he's literally agreed with and/or said himself in the past. Just doesn't like it now for some reason.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Personally, my thoughts are:

1. Pettersson doesn't have a significant injury that is predominately to blame for his poor play, and this has been my opinion basically since February;

So your theory is that him going from an elite skater to below 50th percentile skater just... happened to coincide with this slump?

 

[thecupismine]

what's the non-paraphrased version of this?

Went and watched the video, its not nearly as inflammatory as what the paraphrased version was.

"Confidence is watching video & working hard in practice, all those sort of things he's trying to do, spent a lot of time with different coaches, then you just gotta apply it." (the last part was conveniently left out in the paraphrased version)

Then, a couple minutes later when they asked why it's been half a season since he's been dominant and if he's forgotten how to be dominant, Tocchet responded with :

"Everyone can try and give you confidence, but it also has to be within yourself, but that's every player, everybody goes through bad stretches, and sometimes you just gotta wake up in the morning, roll your sleeves up and say "How am I gonna stop it?" and that's really what it comes down to."

Then they asked have you seen enough of that from Petey? And he responded with "Pockets of it, yeah."

The tone was very relaxed and matter of fact, whereas you'd think from the way it was paraphrased Tocchet was seething.

 

[Hodgy]

What happened with Mik?

I don't recall there being massive criticism of Mikyehev that didn't accept the impact of his knee surgery on his play. I don't think management ever had to make it clear that he was recovering from his injury and that his play was suffering, as I think this was always pretty much accepted by the fanbase in general.

Plus, Mikyehev was a middle to bottom six forward probably making too much, whereas Pettersson is their franchise player making the most on the team - you'd expect different treatment even if the situations were the same.

It actually hasn't. "X player also has one bad winger" isn't addressing it. "He looked bad on the PP too" isn't addressing it. "X player scored 100 points" when EP got 90 isn't addressing it. "He's still bad this season" isn't addressing it, I'm talking about last year during his half season slump.

It has been frequently addressed. The simple fact of the matter is that if his struggles were predominately driven by his linemates you'd expect him to still play well on the power play, and look like he's playing well in isolation at even strength, but neither of those are true.

This is why I referenced Garland. 50 ES points his first season and looked unbelievable until Green started screwing with him, causing basically a 1.5 year slump. Please see my description of this event in an earlier post for more detail before replying to this.

Relatively speaking, I don't think Garland has ever looked bad in the way Pettersson has looked, so I don't think the comparison is warranted. Again, my point isn't that linemates won't affect players statistical production, or even that linemates won't affect how a player will look. My point is that I don't think linemates are predominately causing his poor play and this is based on multiple factors (how he looks at isolation with his "bad" linemates at even strength, how he has looked during the stretches he has played with good linemates at even strength and how he has looked on the powerplay).

His viewpoint is reductive. That's my entire problem with his argument. The quote is accurate.

Ya, but I don't think its fair to take one quote and ascribe one singular view point to @MS as he has expressed many different views on this subject.

 

[Canuckle1970]

Went and watched the video, its not nearly as inflammatory as what the paraphrased version was.

"Confidence is watching video & working hard in practice, all those sort of things he's trying to do, spent a lot of time with different coaches, then you just gotta apply it." (the last part was conveniently left out in the paraphrased version)

Then, a couple minutes later when they asked why it's been half a season since he's been dominant and if he's forgotten how to be dominant, Tocchet responded with :

"Everyone can try and give you confidence, but it also has to be within yourself, but that's every player, everybody goes through bad stretches, and sometimes you just gotta wake up in the morning, roll your sleeves up and say "How am I gonna stop it?" and that's really what it comes down to."

Then they asked have you seen enough of that from Petey? And he responded with "Pockets of it, yeah."

The tone was very relaxed and matter of fact, whereas you'd think from the way it was paraphrased Tocchet was seething.

Thank you. Really appreciate the facts given here.

 

[Hodgy]

Went and watched the video, its not nearly as inflammatory as what the paraphrased version was.

"Confidence is watching video & working hard in practice, all those sort of things he's trying to do, spent a lot of time with different coaches, then you just gotta apply it." (the last part was conveniently left out in the paraphrased version)

Then, a couple minutes later when they asked why it's been half a season since he's been dominant and if he's forgotten how to be dominant, Tocchet responded with :

"Everyone can try and give you confidence, but it also has to be within yourself, but that's every player, everybody goes through bad stretches, and sometimes you just gotta wake up in the morning, roll your sleeves up and say "How am I gonna stop it?" and that's really what it comes down to."

Then they asked have you seen enough of that from Petey? And he responded with "Pockets of it, yeah."

The tone was very relaxed and matter of fact, whereas you'd think from the way it was paraphrased Tocchet was seething.

@mriswith , I'd be interested to hear how you respond to the bolded as you seem to think his confidence/mental issue is a tertiary/lesser cause? I've brought up in the past how Boudreau has said numerous times that he thought Pettersson's struggles were confidence related, and now Tochett is pretty clearly theorizing that as well, so I find it pretty interesting that some posters on here are so strongly against the idea that this is the dominant factor in Pettersson's struggles.

 

[credulous]

Went and watched the video, its not nearly as inflammatory as what the paraphrased version was.

"Confidence is watching video & working hard in practice, all those sort of things he's trying to do, spent a lot of time with different coaches, then you just gotta apply it." (the last part was conveniently left out in the paraphrased version)

Then, a couple minutes later when they asked why it's been half a season since he's been dominant and if he's forgotten how to be dominant, Tocchet responded with :

"Everyone can try and give you confidence, but it also has to be within yourself, but that's every player, everybody goes through bad stretches, and sometimes you just gotta wake up in the morning, roll your sleeves up and say "How am I gonna stop it?" and that's really what it comes down to."

Then they asked have you seen enough of that from Petey? And he responded with "Pockets of it, yeah."

The tone was very relaxed and matter of fact, whereas you'd think from the way it was paraphrased Tocchet was seething.

yeah as quoted in the initial tweet it basically sounded like the coach and player relationship was completely broken. the non-paraphrased version is totally reasonable

thanks for putting in the work i was unwilling to do

 

[MS]

The guy who compared Petey to Loui Eriksson and Huberdeau can't handle you suggesting that Lindholm last year, while on Petey's line, was struggling like a 4th liner. Hmmm...weird

Holy shit.

I didn't 'compare Pettersson to Loui Eriksson'. I asked if the mumbo-jumbo that people were spouting about Pettersson applied to Eriksson, too, and what the cut-off was for this.

What's wrong with comparing Pettersson to Huberdeau? The same exact thing has happened to both, just longer for Huberdeau. But probably worse for Pettersson.

Lindholm even at his worst was a serviceable middle-6 forward. His regular season was obviously disappointing but the notion that he was a '4th line equivalent' is just nonsense. As is the notion that a guy with 24 goals was somehow a 4th line equivalent because he had played on the 4th line that year.

You guys are just getting impossibly triggered about your fave player and are treating 'Pettersson has a compete problem' like someone said your mom has a promiscuity problem. I'm trying to have an honest discussion here but there is zero effort the other way.

 

[ihaveyuidonttouchme]

TRAINING CAMP | Elias Pettersson | Vancouver Canucks

Elias Pettersson addresses the media.

www.nhl.com

At 1:06, he mentioned that he is still searching for ways to manage his persistent knee problems and doesn't want to overexert himself or possibly not use it as an excuse


What was y'all's initial reaction when he said that? just curiuos

 

[Hodgy]

TRAINING CAMP | Elias Pettersson | Vancouver Canucks

Elias Pettersson addresses the media.

www.nhl.com

At 1:06, he mentioned that he is still searching for ways to manage his persistent knee problems and doesn't want to overexert himself or possibly not use it as an excuse


What was y'all's initial reaction when he said that? just curiuos

"Nagging"; "I feel no pain"; "its not a big thing, knees fine".

 

[mriswith]

I don't recall there being massive criticism of Mikyehev that didn't accept the impact of his knee surgery on his play. I don't think management ever had to make it clear that he was recovering from his injury and that his play was suffering, as I think this was always pretty much accepted by the fanbase in general.

You trust management to protect a player who is playing through an injury that they shouldn't after Mik? His level of play isn't relevant.

Plus, Mikyehev was a middle to bottom six forward probably making too much, whereas Pettersson is their franchise player making the most on the team - you'd expect different treatment even if the situations were the same.

This is an enormous amount of leeway to give mgmt for a massive screwup of a 4.75m player.

It has been frequently addressed. The simple fact of the matter is that if his struggles were predominately driven by his linemates you'd expect him to still play well on the power play, and look like he's playing well in isolation at even strength, but neither of those are true.

I disagree.

Relatively speaking, I don't think Garland has ever looked bad in the way Pettersson has looked, so I don't think the comparison is warranted. Again, my point isn't that linemates won't affect players statistical production, or even that linemates won't affect how a player will look. My point is that I don't think linemates are predominately causing his poor play and this is based on multiple factors (how he looks at isolation with his "bad" linemates at even strength, how he has looked during the stretches he has played with good linemates at even strength and how he has looked on the powerplay).

Garland went from scoring like a borderline star and carrying the 2nd line to limping along for a long time. It was a huge change. When we played Arizona during that slump their gdt would have comments like "wtf did the Canucks do to Garland?" I loved Garland in Arizona before the trade and when he first got here and even I was starting to lose faith in him and question what I'd seen in previous years during that 2nd year.

Ya, but I don't think its fair to take one quote and ascribe one singular view point to @MS as he has expressed many different views on this subject.

My entire problem is that he has a singular viewpoint on EP. You're making an argument for him that he doesn't make for himself. You don't need to carry water for him, he can handle himself when he wants to.

@mriswith , I'd be interested to hear how you respond to the bolded as you seem to think his confidence/mental issue is a tertiary/lesser cause? I've brought up in the past how Boudreau has said numerous times that he thought Pettersson's struggles were confidence related, and now Tochett is pretty clearly theorizing that as well, so I find it pretty interesting that some posters on here are so strongly against the idea that this is the dominant factor in Pettersson's struggles.

Do you mean a cause of his current performance? I don't know how to separate which issue is currently #1. I think it's currently a combination of the factors outlined previously.

Do you mean what put him in a tailspin to begin with? I don't think that confidence or other mental issues are what caused the dropoff mid season while pacing a career high in points during a contract year. Confidence becomes a more legitimate issue as time goes on but it doesn't start there. Something else started the fire.

TRAINING CAMP | Elias Pettersson | Vancouver Canucks

Elias Pettersson addresses the media.

www.nhl.com

At 1:06, he mentioned that he is still searching for ways to manage his persistent knee problems and doesn't want to overexert himself or possibly not use it as an excuse


What was y'all's initial reaction when he said that? just curiuos

Immediate huge drop in optimism about this season for him.

 

[kanucks25]

TRAINING CAMP | Elias Pettersson | Vancouver Canucks

Elias Pettersson addresses the media.

www.nhl.com

At 1:06, he mentioned that he is still searching for ways to manage his persistent knee problems and doesn't want to overexert himself or possibly not use it as an excuse


What was y'all's initial reaction when he said that? just curiuos

To me, if it's minor and not an excuse, why even mention it?

It's almost like he's giving himself something to fall back on mentally if he fails, and that sounds like a failing mentality to begin with.

It's like: "hey nothing's wrong but you know, if things go wrong, you know..."

Again I'm playing amateur psychologist but it's impossible not to in this discussion lol

 

[mriswith]

Holy shit.

I didn't 'compare Pettersson to Loui Eriksson'. I asked if the mumbo-jumbo that people were spouting about Pettersson applied to Eriksson, too, and what the cut-off was for this.

What's wrong with comparing Pettersson to Huberdeau? The same exact thing has happened to both, just longer for Huberdeau. But probably worse for Pettersson.

Lindholm even at his worst was a serviceable middle-6 forward. His regular season was obviously disappointing but the notion that he was a '4th line equivalent' is just nonsense. As is the notion that a guy with 24 goals was somehow a 4th line equivalent because he had played on the 4th line that year.

Lindholm scored at a 4th line pace on our team during the regular season and you literally have either made the comparison yourself or affirmed Lindholm looking like Loui 2.0 when he arrived before.

I don't remember when Hog moved to EP's line but Hog had 5 ES points in his last 16 games before the playoffs last year and 2 points in 11 playoff games. That's 4th line production.

And Hog's performance after moving from the 4th line to EP's line is literally the reason why so many became a Hog skeptic, myself included. Were you expecting another 24 goal season from Hog this year?

You guys are just getting impossibly triggered about your fave player and are treating 'Pettersson has a compete problem' like someone said your mom has a promiscuity problem. I'm trying to have an honest discussion here but there is zero effort the other way.

This is such a dishonest characterization of my argument and I'm not even remotely surprised.

Especially after the very last post I made to you was making my argument crystal clear, which you opted to not respond to in favour of posting this comment.

"I'm trying to have an honest discussion here" lol no you're not. Not with comments like this.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Why do people think I hate him?

I am (justifiably) extremely frustrated about watching our $11.6 million superstar stop competing for a large sample of games for the 3rd time in his career. I'm extremely frustrated that his godawful performance was the biggest reason we got knocked out of the playoffs last year when we had our best chance of a deep run since 2011.

I want him to play well again. We need him to play well again. I have no idea how that will happen or when that will happen. And it's - again - extremely frustrating.

Equating that with LOL HATER is just lazy, sad posting.

This is how I feel as well. It's because we know he's capable of so much more, and he let the team down when they needed him most.