Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - A Forward Who Scores

[bossram]

I'm worried less about hiding Miller than I am unleashing Pettersson. The latter's progression is of utmost importance.

Insulate Miller with Joshua and Garland.

Your suspicion is probably correct through. They will go back to Miller-Hughes.

I would like to continue to unleash Petey. But I think, especially once Miller comes back from his absence, Tocc will try to put him in the best position to succeed (i.e. with Hughes).

Tocc trusts Petey defensively and essentially leaned on him as his #1 matchup option even prior to JT stepping away.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

so since that edmonton game when we got caved in in the third period and everyone but petey sucked, petey is tied for 2nd in pts, trailing only mcdavid.

hughes is 12th in that same stretch of 12 games.

ftr, miller played in the first five of them.


the biggest change i’ve seen is petey and hughes have gotten into more of a groove, and imo that is much more on petey than on hughes. for a lot of the season, hughes was looking off petey when they were on the ice together. and there were a lot of times, and it still happens from time to time now, when hughes is skating up the ice with the puck and petey is right in front of him standing still like, why aren’t you passing to me? but really it’s became petey isn’t putting himself in useful position to do something with the puck if given it. to a large degree, they’ve re-figured each other out, but for a long time it was just awkward watching petey standing there being totally ignored by the puck carrier, where it looked like he was feeling like he was frozen out but really he wasn’t moving his feet and not getting to spots where it made sense to pass to him. and then that sort of snowballed and he started double clutching and/or immediately passing the puck to the next guy when it did come to him.

to a degree i think some of this is also the growing pains of whose team this really is. i mean, obviously it’s quinn’s team and he controls everything that happens on the ice, but i think there is some petey stuff there where things that used to automatically go through him started always going through miller and he didn’t quite know how to adapt.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Im glad you agree you've been doing mental gymnasticas

took you awhile to admit it, but you got there.

You are making your self look really good here.

 

[Bobby9]

Holy shit, is this a bit or is your mind absolutely impenetrable to new information.

1. The cap is going up.
2. There are values players offer outside of boxcar numbers.
3. A young superstar struggled for awhile but we are still very lucky he committed to us for a full 8 years.
4. You are allowed to be quiet and enjoy things instead of trying to create reasons to be disgruntled all of the time.

1 - I dont care if the cap goes up. Committing an over payment to a player who disappears for months is still a bad contract.

2 - Correct. It also works the other way when you pay a player for potential and the potential doesnt come. Going stone cold in the playoffs is much more detrimental to a teams success than potential.

3 - If he continues to go on month long cold streaks were are NOT fortunate to have the player.

4 - Youre allowed to live in reality like the rest of us who are concerned when he disappears for months rather than bang the "but when hes amazing he is amazing" drum all the time


He is a very high skilled but extremely streaky player who isnt worth his cap hit 65% of the year. You can argue with reality all you want

Here are his playoff stats for last season:

13

1

5

6

Tell us all again how lucky we are to have him.

 

[strattonius]

Why (and how....) did you use Hroneks situation as an exampleto prove that we dont know what is up with EP?

You weigh his knee tendinitis as a greater impact on his play than his confidence - I would say the latter. Thats really the crux of what pisses you off so much.

 

[racerjoe]

You weigh his knee tendinitis as a greater impact on his play than his confidence - I would say the latter. Thats really the crux of what pisses you off so much.

While it’s a combination of both, clearly one started the other. Seeing as we can see he still doesn’t have his speed and he is still hesitant to do certain things, seems obvious. Plus we can just look at the know. Timeline.

Also let’s look at his career playoff stats instead of a small sample when he was hurt…

 

[Hodgy]

And despite him playing much better than he was earlier this season, we can still see that his skating is nowhere near as explosive as past seasons.

Is he just choosing not to skate? He doesn't want to? The evidence the decline in skating is injury-related is pretty strong.

I would tend to agree with you if this was his first slump where he looked really slow. But, and I think we discussed this before, this is his second big slump where he has looked slow. And in his first big slump where he looked slow there was no suggestion or any evidence that he had any lower body injury that would affect his skating. So, if he can be slow for a long time in one earlier slump where no lower body injury was suspected or confirmed, then I don't think we need to or should conclude that his patellar tendinitis is causing his lack of speed, although it obviously could be.

And sure, you can maintain that you don't think he was slow during his first slump, but I think its a bit unreasonable for anyone to prefer your recollection on this (which I think you have no contemporaneous evidence for) over dozens of posters' eye-witness contemporaneous reports which I have already cited.

While it’s a combination of both, clearly one started the other. Seeing as we can see he still doesn’t have his speed and he is still hesitant to do certain things, seems obvious. Plus we can just look at the know. Timeline.

Also let’s look at his career playoff stats instead of a small sample when he was hurt…

See my reply to bossram above. I really don't think it is obvious when this is the second time he has had a long slump where he looked slow and during the first slump there was no suggest nor evidence of any lower body injury that may have caused that lack of speed.

 

[Shareefruck]

Don't misquote people it's rude.

You make it other people's problem your reading comprehension sucks.

Completely off-tangent from your ongoing feud, but what punctuation is proper to use when you want to translate what someone said in order to make a point about how ridiculous it comes across? (without inartfully having to explain it instead of just saying it/mimicking it)

I've had this problem too, and gotten accused of "misquoting" when that obviously wasn't the intention. How do you mock someone's statement without technically "misquoting"? Surely you should be able to and that shouldn't be off-limits in an exchange.

Genuine question for anyone. Are you supposed to use angle brackets or something? (or perhaps using quotes is fine and the onus is just on readers to understand the non-misquoting context/purpose?-- again, throwing that out there as a genuine possibility, not an attempt at snark/picking sides about whatever the hell you guys are arguing about)

 

[racerjoe]

I would tend to agree with you if this was his first slump where he looked really slow. But, and I think we discussed this before, this is his second big slump where he has looked slow. And in his first big slump where he looked slow there was no suggestion or any evidence that he had any lower body injury that would affect his skating. So, if he can be slow for a long time in one earlier slump where no lower body injury was suspected or confirmed, then I don't think we need to or should conclude that his patellar tendinitis is causing his lack of speed, although it obviously could be.

And sure, you can maintain that you don't think he was slow during his first slump, but I think its a bit unreasonable for anyone to prefer your recollection on this (which I think you have no contemporaneous evidence for) over dozens of posters' eye-witness contemporaneous reports which I have already cited.


See my reply to bossram above. I really don't think it is obvious when this is the second time he has had a long slump where he looked slow and during the first slump there was no suggest nor evidence of any lower body injury that may have caused that lack of speed.

Yeah and that first slump he was coming back from an injury…

 

[Hodgy]

Yeah and that first slump he was coming back from an injury…

To his WRIST, correct? Like, we aren't going to start to believe that his wrist injury was causing him to be slow, are we?

If what you are saying is that his wrist injury led to confidence issues that led to slow skating, then sure, maybe. But it seems that some on here are of the opinion that the patellar tendinitis is causing him to skate poorly, and while that may be correct, the first slump really sheds some doubt on that conclusion.

 

[pitseleh]

I would tend to agree with you if this was his first slump where he looked really slow. But, and I think we discussed this before, this is his second big slump where he has looked slow. And in his first big slump where he looked slow there was no suggestion or any evidence that he had any lower body injury that would affect his skating. So, if he can be slow for a long time in one earlier slump where no lower body injury was suspected or confirmed, then I don't think we need to or should conclude that his patellar tendinitis is causing his lack of speed, although it obviously could be.

And sure, you can maintain that you don't think he was slow during his first slump, but I think its a bit unreasonable for anyone to prefer your recollection on this (which I think you have no contemporaneous evidence for) over dozens of posters' eye-witness contemporaneous reports which I have already cited.


See my reply to bossram above. I really don't think it is obvious when this is the second time he has had a long slump where he looked slow and during the first slump there was no suggest nor evidence of any lower body injury that may have caused that lack of speed.

Directionally the two may have been the same, but the size of the drop off this time wasn’t the same as last time - last time he went from elite to still well above average, this time he’s been well below average.

A wrist injury isn’t going to slow someone down directly but it is going to impact your ability to make plays at top speed, etc. which could affect the pace you play at.

Pettersson has been getting elite results for over a month now but still looks slow and still is still slow based on the data.

You couldn’t exclude that engagement, confidence, etc. were the bulk of the problem with his skating before the recent resurgence but those are shaky explanations now.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

To his WRIST, correct? Like, we aren't going to start to believe that his wrist injury was causing him to be slow, are we?

If what you are saying is that his wrist injury led to confidence issues that led to slow skating, then sure, maybe. But it seems that some on here are of the opinion that the patellar tendinitis is causing him to skate poorly, and while that may be correct, the first slump really sheds some doubt on that conclusion.

I dont remember it making him skate slow.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

1 - I dont care if the cap goes up. Committing an over payment to a player who disappears for months is still a bad contract.

2 - Correct. It also works the other way when you pay a player for potential and the potential doesnt come. Going stone cold in the playoffs is much more detrimental to a teams success than potential.

3 - If he continues to go on month long cold streaks were are NOT fortunate to have the player.

4 - Youre allowed to live in reality like the rest of us who are concerned when he disappears for months rather than bang the "but when hes amazing he is amazing" drum all the time


He is a very high skilled but extremely streaky player who isnt worth his cap hit 65% of the year. You can argue with reality all you want

Here are his playoff stats for last season:

13

1

5

6

Tell us all again how lucky we are to have him.

iF hE dOeSn'T sCoRe lIkE gReTzKy tHe cOnTrAcT iS a nIgHtMaRe.

 

[racerjoe]

To his WRIST, correct? Like, we aren't going to start to believe that his wrist injury was causing him to be slow, are we?

If what you are saying is that his wrist injury led to confidence issues that led to slow skating, then sure, maybe. But it seems that some on here are of the opinion that the patellar tendinitis is causing him to skate poorly, and while that may be correct, the first slump really sheds some doubt on that conclusion.

I don’t remember him being slow… just not as good as others have said

 

[Hodgy]

Directionally the two may have been the same, but the size of the drop off this time wasn’t the same as last time - last time he went from elite to still well above average, this time he’s been well below average.

Is this just based on your viewing? Its hard to really quantify given that we don't have the speed stats from the first slump. I recall, and have cited others, who all thought he was slow during the first slump. I actually think the size of the drop off, at least relatively, may have been bigger in the first slump, as I think Pettersson has looked the fastest in the earliest years of his career. So I think the drop off in speed may have actually been greater in his first slump, then his last, just because his base "healthy" speed was higher prior to his first slump.

Personally, and this isn't based in any evidence, I think forwards are generally at their fastest in their early to mid twenties, and then taper off from there, so I think its at least possible that some of Pettersson's speed related decline is just normal. Again, I don't really have anything to substantiate this.

A wrist injury isn’t going to slow someone down directly but it is going to impact your ability to make plays at top speed, etc. which could affect the pace you play at.

Definitely, but what I recall, and what those I cited seem to recall as well, is that during his first slump he just looked slow and wasn't moving his feet, and wasn't attacking. So it was less him struggling to play at high speeds during his first slump, and more him not getting up to speed, which is actually pretty consistent with how he looks right now.

Pettersson has been getting elite results for over a month now but still looks slow and still is still slow based on the data.

100% agree. Although I do recall it taking him a very long time to get out of his first slump so it doesn't necessary surprise me that he isn't full up to speed, mind the pun. Earlier in the year I thought it might take him to January or February before we seem the real Pettersson back.

You couldn’t exclude that engagement, confidence, etc. were the bulk of the problem with his skating before the recent resurgence but those are shaky explanations now.

I honestly don't really know if its just confidence or engagement, or more a mindset, or maybe it is in an injury. I find the whole set of facts quite baffling. And frankly, as someone who has patellar tendinitis, and based on everything I know, I wouldn't expect it to absolutely and significantly limited his speed - to put it another way, I can get that it would detract from his performance, but would still expect to see bursts of speed and dynamism which we aren't seeing and the stats back it up.

 

[arttk]

To his WRIST, correct? Like, we aren't going to start to believe that his wrist injury was causing him to be slow, are we?

If what you are saying is that his wrist injury led to confidence issues that led to slow skating, then sure, maybe. But it seems that some on here are of the opinion that the patellar tendinitis is causing him to skate poorly, and while that may be correct, the first slump really sheds some doubt on that conclusion.

you do know that you don't improve skating speed by just skating .. you do it by lifting weights and improving power from the core, which you cannot do if your wrist is f***ed up.

never workout much?

 

[Hodgy]

I don’t remember him being slow… just not as good as others have said

Here are some quotes I dug up. There are undoubtedly far more and I don't think anyone should seriously question this.

-He's not skating. There was a play in one of the Ducks Games where he was forechecking and Getzlaf had the puck. Instead of skating and catching that old f*** he instead started reaching with his stick and Getzlaf blew by him

-Effort on that EN goal says it all. Just giving zero f***s out there.
-He's weak on his skates and doesn't seem as fast.

-His speed/hustle that was so evident in year 1 is gone

-The passing, the skating, the turnovers it's just all bad.

-He just doesn't move his feet at all. He just glides around.

-Physically speaking, the issue seems to be that a gentle breeze knocks him over, and he seems to have substituted skating with coasting around.

-Kid can't even skate or make 10 foot passes.

-he's not a fast skater, he's not a strong skater

-EP has completely checked out on a physical level. He is just going through the motions, he is the epitome of being easy to play against. Maybe someone should point that out to him?

-If EP can't be bothered to actually move his legs when he's on the ice, I have no problem with seeing what the trade market is like, although it's hard to imagine getting good value for a player who falls to the ice once per shift.

 

[Hodgy]

you do know that you don't improve skating speed by just skating .. you do it by lifting weights and improving power from the core, which you cannot do if your wrist is f***ed up.

never workout much?

Yes, we all know that core strength is directly tied to your wrist. Great point.

 

[arttk]

Yes, we all know that core strength is directly tied to your wrist. Great point.

yeah how do you think players lift weights? with their dicks?

 

[Hodgy]

yeah how do you think players lift weights? with their dicks?

There are probably a thousand different ways to exercise your core without using one of your wrists.

But if you want to continue to maintain that his wrist injury (which he didn't miss any time for, as I recall) caused him to skate slowly, then go ahead. Seems incredibly far fetched and poorly thought out, but go for it.

 

[arttk]

There are probably a thousand different ways to exercise your core without using one of your wrists.

But if you want to continue to maintain that his wrist injury (which he didn't miss any time for, as I recall) caused him to skate slowly, then go ahead. Seems incredibly far fetched and poorly thought out, but go for it.

and all of them invovle them holding/lifting weight which requires the use of a wrist.

yes if you cannot lift for 6-9 months because your wrist is f***ed up, your strength is going to be compromised because if alternatives to not lifting weights are as effective, we will see NHLers use those alternatives in their training but we don't for a reason. And yes i know this becuase i f***ed up my wrist and I couldn't f***ing lift shit for a good 6 months and you'll be surprised how much shit you can't do once your wrist is f***ed up.

 

[Hodgy]

and all of them invovle them holding/lifting weight which requires the use of a wrist.

I didn't know a sit up required use of your wrist. Crazy.

yes if you cannot lift for 6-9 months because your wrist is f***ed up, your strength is going to be compromised because if alternatives to not lifting weights are as effective, we will see NHLers use those alternatives in their training but we don't for a reason. And yes i know this becuase i f***ed up my wrist and I couldn't f***ing lift shit for a good 6 months and you'll be surprised how much shit you can't do once your wrist is f***ed up.

Pettersson was playing hockey throughout his wrist injury. There obviously was an issue, but it wasn't some debilitating injury that somehow prevented him from doing any core exercises but somehow he was also able to continue to play hockey (which is in and of itself a core exercise) . This is beyond ridiculous.

 

[arttk]

I didn't know a sit up required use of your wrist. Crazy.



Pettersson was playing hockey throughout his wrist injury. There obviously was an issue, but it wasn't some debilitating injury that somehow prevented him from doing any core exercises but somehow he was also able to continue to play hockey (which is in and of itself a core exercise) . This is beyond ridiculous.

he missed half a season and majority of his offseason, of course there will be some physical impact.

 

[bossram]

I would tend to agree with you if this was his first slump where he looked really slow. But, and I think we discussed this before, this is his second big slump where he has looked slow. And in his first big slump where he looked slow there was no suggestion or any evidence that he had any lower body injury that would affect his skating. So, if he can be slow for a long time in one earlier slump where no lower body injury was suspected or confirmed, then I don't think we need to or should conclude that his patellar tendinitis is causing his lack of speed, although it obviously could be.

And sure, you can maintain that you don't think he was slow during his first slump, but I think its a bit unreasonable for anyone to prefer your recollection on this (which I think you have no contemporaneous evidence for) over dozens of posters' eye-witness contemporaneous reports which I have already cited.

I mean, you can think this, but I strongly disagree. Personally, when he was slumping before (and had the wrist injury), I never thought that the skating speed/explosiveness was really the issue. He just looked like he wasn't trying that hard (I think there is a subtle distinction).

Even now (and in the playoffs when he caught the most flak!), he is trying. Petey is in defensive position most of the time. He's running the right routes on the backcheck. He's also far more physical than he ever was at any point in his career. He definitely wasn't hitting like he is now during the previous slump. To me, it suggests that right now, it really is a skating limitation. Whereas before, it was some other source of malaise.

 

[Wisp]

why are you guys bickering about a player who is 1.35 points per a game since November.

He'll have 101 points by the end of the season maintaining this pace.

it's fine. maybe it is time to relax a bit and enjoy watching the player.