Euro Hockey Tour: EHT 2020-2021 • Karjala Cup • Nov. 2-8 [CZE/FIN/RUS/SWE]

[Atas2000]

I don't actually understand all anti-Mukhamadullin's hate, he's solid.

Let's say he is okay, but makes a lot of mistakes. What people forget is, he is 18.

 

[vorky]

I don't know if that is the case here, as mentioned Larionov was an elite Soviet player, if anyone would know about the Soviet approach it would be the professor himself. I don't think anyone is teaching him, he obviously has meetings with people in FHR where they have discussions but he already knows how he wants to coach.

Fine. Then I should add more details. Obviously, the FHR chose a coach who would coach in a way the federation wants (their policy). He fits the demands by the FHR. My point is, the nationwide policy is above any coach or player.

 

[Lartsaman]

Any Finn fans help me understand their team? Eg. young guns, contenders for the WHC?

None of those players are even near to the WHC team unless we see a massive amount of declines from KHL players. Which we propably see.....

 

[Ingvar]

But someone is developing the kids in some way, someone is teaching the coaches. What do you think the purpose of Rotenberg´s slogan "Красная машина - новая сборка" is about?

Useless PR and vague nostalgia?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

People love to ask, how good could top WJC teams be vs AHL teams. I'd say, they could be good enough.

They would get killed. They can't consistently beat university teams that are a few years older and don't have any NHL prospects on them, how would they beat AHL or KHL teams?

 

[Kshahdoo]

They would get killed. They can't consistently beat university teams that are a few years older and don't have any NHL prospects on them, how would they beat AHL or KHL teams?

KHL teams they will probably not be able to beat (at least, average teams), but AHL ones aren't much tougher, than Team SHL or Team Liiga, which Russian team beat.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

KHL teams they will probably not be able to beat (at least, average teams), but AHL ones aren't much tougher, than Team SHL or Team Liiga, which Russian team beat.

Don't be silly. Real mens' pro teams, not those Karjala frankenstein teams, would kill a junior team.

 

[SoundAndFury]

KHL teams they will probably not be able to beat (at least, average teams), but AHL ones aren't much tougher, than Team SHL or Team Liiga, which Russian team beat.

This:

Don't be silly. Real mens' pro teams, not those Karjala frankenstein teams, would kill a junior team.

Just because they beat guys playing together for the first time with questionable effort level doesn't mean they would beat a "real" team. Also, most junior teams, even very good ones, have goalies that are like 5-7 years away from professional hockey. Askarov is a huge outlier in this particular case.

Not to mention, that leagues like AHL are all about the grind. Grown men gain not only strength or speed, they also gain stamina and endurance. It's one thing to play 3 games at a certain level, and another playing 70.

 

[Kshahdoo]

This:

Just because they beat guys playing together for the first time with questionable effort level doesn't mean they would beat a "real" team. Also, most junior teams, even very good ones, have goalies that are like 5-7 years away from professional hockey. Askarov is a huge outlier in this particular case.

Not to mention, that leagues like AHL are all about the grind. Grown men gain not only strength or speed, they also gain stamina and endurance. It's one thing to play 3 games at a certain level, and another playing 70.

Hronek's salary is probably half of your typical AHL team's salary budget, you can't get good enough roster for such money.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Hronek's salary is probably half of your typical AHL team's salary budget, you can't get good enough roster for such money.

I'm fairly certain you understand perfectly well guys are in the AHL to make the NHL or at least get called up (and to get NHL salary then), not to get paid. You get Vitali Kravtsov (or whoever, he was just first to come to mind) playing for 70k per year. For 3 years, if need be.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It's his size. HF has this weird hate for guys with size and assumes that most big guys have low IQ.

He might also just have a bad hockey IQ. There doesn't need to be a conspiracy.

 

[NJ Fan 12]

Nice job by Russia. I was happy the Czechs played all the young guys and gave them experience. 2 guys, jiricek and svozil, might not even make the U20 team as they are do young. Parik did not look the best in the goals against. Next time he plays this awesome Russian squad he won't have a legit NHL defender in front of him. I'm guessing Russia beats us about 6-1 at wjhc.

Any thoughts on Radek Muzik this weekend?

 

[Czechboy]

Any thoughts on Radek Muzik this weekend?

I didn't think he was at the Karlaja?

 

[wings5]

KHL teams they will probably not be able to beat (at least, average teams), but AHL ones aren't much tougher, than Team SHL or Team Liiga, which Russian team beat.

Canadian WJC team frequently gets dominated by CIS players , players who won't even sniff pro hockey later. Whereas Canada's players often have some players which become NHL stars. Sample size is too small, Askarov is a special goalie prospect, him and Amirov might not even touch the AHL. I have no doubt an AHL team would easily handle any WJC team.

 

[NJ Fan 12]

I didn't think he was at the Karlaja?

My mistake. He was mentioned in posts on this thread but in checking the final roster he is not listed.

 

[SoundAndFury]

He might also just have a bad hockey IQ. There doesn't need to be a conspiracy.

Every prospect has weaknesses but only some get thrown under the bus for those. So, what gives? He led the team in TOI in a tournament they won against odds, he had 2 points in 3 games and was +2. Yet the biggest takeaway for some people seemed to be "he has bad hockey IQ and his passing sucks". Yeah.. And Podkolzin can't shoot and Amirov overdoes his "spin around me" move and Chinakhov doesn't pass to teammate enough.

 

[Czechboy]

My mistake. He was mentioned in posts on this thread but in checking the final roster he is not listed.

I looked him up.. slow start in SEL.. tougher league than Extraliga for sure and am happy we can get a 19 year old into SEL. Not sure how much longer he lasts there though.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Every prospect has weaknesses but only some get thrown under the bus for those. So, what gives? He led the team in TOI in a tournament they won against odds, he had 2 points in 3 games and was +2. Yet the biggest takeaway for some people seemed to be "he has bad hockey IQ and his passing sucks". Yeah.. And Podkolzin can't shoot and Amirov overdoes his "spin around me" move and Chinakhov doesn't pass to teammate enough.

Mukhamadullin was a first round pick. People are going to criticize him more than most. Considering that a number of Russia's best defensemen were not available for this tournament, let's see if he's still the top defenseman when the WJC starts. I have a feeling he won't be. Even then, it's mostly considered a weak group of defensemen for the Russians. And even if he is the best defenseman, how much does that tell us? Are any of those Russian defensemen future NHL'ers or NHL caliber defensemen?

If Mukhamadullin ends up the best of them but his lack of hockey IQ and puck-moving ability limits him to being a 6/7D in the NHL, should he be criticized because he didn't amount to a good 1st round pick and he barely had any impact in the NHL or should he be praised for being better than a bad crop of defenseman?

 

[WRC]

Canadian WJC team frequently gets dominated by CIS players , players who won't even sniff pro hockey later. Whereas Canada's players often have some players which become NHL stars. Sample size is too small, Askarov is a special goalie prospect, him and Amirov might not even touch the AHL. I have no doubt an AHL team would easily handle any WJC team.

This is simply not true. They often play them tight, but "frequently dominated"? Not by a long shot.

In the meantime, many of those CIS stars (WJ camp plays against select all-stars) are former major junior players that are now in their mid to late 20s. Some of them do have pro experience, and have decided to use hockey to further their education rather than toil in the pro leagues of Europe.

 

[SoundAndFury]

If Mukhamadullin ends up the best of them but his lack of hockey IQ and puck-moving ability limits him to being a 6/7D in the NHL, should he be criticized because he didn't amount to a good 1st round pick and he barely had any impact in the NHL or should he be praised for being better than a bad crop of defenseman?

Yes, he or rather those picking should be criticized THEN. You go on this tangent projecting the future of 18-year-old based on the assumption he can't improve.

Devils picked him not even 2 months ago because, I assume, they believe in him to get better. As people do picking any prospect outside of top-5 or top-3. Yet you go significant length to "prove" he (or that pick) was bad purely based on your assumption he can't improve. His actual results, performance, hard evidence if you will - those are perfectly fine and, again, good crop or bad crop those guys just won a tournament against senior players. He plays 12-13 minutes in the KHL and can hang in there reasonably well there.

Your only argument to defend this opinion of yours is based on "ifs" and "thens". "IF the prospect can't improve his weaknesses over the next 4 years he's going to be a bad 1st round pick". Well, no shit. But how about we look at a whole package and stop obsessing about those perceived flaws that aren't even bad enough to get him out of the KHL lineup.

This reminds me of those "Erik Karlsson sucks because would you want him on the ice in the final minute holding 1 goal lead" discussions. Ignoring everything else but the weakest part of one's game.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You go on this tangent projecting the future of 18-year-old based on the assumption he can't improve.

Impressive. I didn't do any of that, but you really did hammer home that point.

I think my actual point is pretty clear. It doesn't matter how he compares to the players on this Karjala Cup team. The larger evaluation of Mukhamadullin comes from how he projects to the NHL. Thats how most people who criticizing him are assessing him. He doesn't not have a bad hockey sense because he plays the most minutes at the Karjala Cup or even plays well at the Karjala Cup. An evaluation of a mostly unknown player to most fans, like Safonov, might be based largely on the Karjala Cup, and how he performs there, which probably is also largely inaccurate to base it off one international tournament. No one should be expecting more than a minor assessment of Mukhamadullin to come from the Karjala Cup.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I think my actual point is pretty clear. It doesn't matter how he compares to the players on this Karjala Cup team. The larger evaluation of Mukhamadullin comes from how he projects to the NHL. Thats how most people who criticizing him are assessing him.

It's actually funny hearing Rangers fan talking like this. Rangers picked D'Andre Miller at almost the same spot 2 years ago. He had almost the same flaws and the same positives about him. Albeit his body was way more developed at the time of the draft. So if anything, you should understand very clearly NHL scouts pick based on "projection" too and I don't really understand why do you hold your opinion so much above theirs.

But we go back to the same point no matter how you deny it: your "projection" is based on the fact that he can't improve his weaknesses. You even tell it yourself (2 sentences after denying to do it which is indeed impressive): "The larger evaluation of Mukhamadullin comes from how he projects to the NHL.". "He projects" in this case means nothing more but "I project him to be this and that". Because obviously, that's not what NHL scouts project. It's not like you are watching a different player. What is your "projection" based on? Gut feeling? You can't teach people to move the puck in 3-4 years? Give me a break.

Also, very nice to talk about the Karjala cup only completely ignoring my point about KHL.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It's actually funny hearing Rangers fan talking like this. Rangers picked D'Andre Miller at almost the same spot 2 years ago. He had almost the same flaws and the same positives about him. Albeit his body was way more developed at the time of the draft.

Before you start getting accusatory, you should be knowledgeable about the subject you are discussing.

You don't seem to be aware I'm probably the biggest proponent among Rangers fans you'll find that Miller was not a first round level prospect, and is not a top prospect. I don't expect a lengthy NHL career.

It's also funny that you use that comparison. I believe I was the one who first started using it on this website. Might you have caught onto it from me?

And like with Miller, the initial assessment of Mukhamadullin comes before anyone is drafted. It doesn't matter what team drafts them. I don't play those games. I like a pick or don't like a pick based on what I've seen of the player, not who made the pick.

So if anything, you should understand very clearly NHL scouts pick based on "projection" too and I don't really understand why do you hold your opinion so much above theirs.

Yes, and I've said many times how I think it's bogus. These tools are often mythical, and are based more on the player being athletic. You don't have hockey skills automatically added to your game because you are athletic. I don't think it's a coincidence that these players often bust.

And thats not the larger point here. I merely commented on Mukhamadullin's hockey sense, and now this has become an all-encompassing discussion on the player. He can obviously improve, but I don't see how his hockey sense is being inaccurately assessed just because he had a good tournament compared to players who for the most part are not real prospects.

Also, very nice to talk about the Karjala cup only completely ignoring my point about KHL.

You might need to go back and look what my initial point was. You responded to my post to disagree with what I said, not the other way around.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Before you start getting accusatory, you should be knowledgeable about the subject you are discussing.

You don't seem to be aware I'm probably the biggest proponent among Rangers fans you'll find that Miller was not a first round level prospect, and is not a top prospect. I don't expect a lengthy NHL career.

It's also funny that you use that comparison. I believe I was the one who first started using it on this website. Might you have caught onto it from me?

And like with Miller, the initial assessment of Mukhamadullin comes before anyone is drafted. It doesn't matter what team drafts them. I don't play those games. I like a pick or don't like a pick based on what I've seen of the player, not who made the pick.

Yes, and I've said many times how I think it's bogus. These tools are often mythical, and are based more on the player being athletic. You don't have hockey skills automatically added to your game because you are athletic. I don't think it's a coincidence that these players often bust.

And thats not the larger point here. I merely commented on Mukhamadullin's hockey sense, and now this has become an all-encompassing discussion on the player. He can obviously improve, but I don't see how his hockey sense is being inaccurately assessed just because he had a good tournament compared to players who for the most part are not real prospects.

You might need to go back and look what my initial point was. You responded to my post to disagree with what I said, not the other way around.

So, again, you confirm that this "projection" is indeed based on your opinion rather than some accurate widely accepted truth or evidence. Fair enough.

Regarding Miller comparison, I haven't really followed him or discussions about him on these boards so no, I am not aware (nor I should have been) of your opinion about him nor what did you compare him to. It isn't exactly shocking that 2 people can come up with the same comparison though.

And I mean you can't really say you "merely commented on his hockey sense" if at the same time you tie it to "projection of 6/7th D". But overall, you nailed it. Look at his prospect thread. Some guy writes "He tried to change while the other team was coming into the zone at one point.". And it feels like statements like this are supposed to be an all-encompassing narrative about Mukhamadulin's abilities. The same applies to this thread. After reading one would think he can't make a pass to save his life while SYu used him as a 1st unit point man during corona over someone like Alexeev.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Just today did i finish watching all the games.

Bristedt, Wingerli, Friberg, Hansson and Backstrom where the only players from Sweden who played good thoughout the tournament.

This tournament clearly shows that a pure SHL squad is not good enough. Need to throw in KHL and NLA players to be competitive on euro level.