Ego vs Immortality Framed Forever

[Ted Hoffman]

You have no idea what was discussed or when. You're really make a lot of assumptions about things no one knows anything about.

We have what Jeremy Rutherford has reported. If you think it's wrong, by all means - point out all the errors and help set the record straight for everyone. Until then, that's everything we have to rely on at the moment, for better or for worse.

As far as having a GM that hurts the team to spite a player. I don't think Armstrong did anything to hurt the team and he most certainly didn't do it to spite a player. It's been a long term known stance of the Blues not to hand out NMC, this was not something new.

1. "I don't think" is an opinion, not a fact.
2. You have no idea whether Armstrong did it to spite a player [and/or the player's representatives] - because .......... wait for it ........... you're making an assumption about something you don't know anything about.
3. @EastonBlues22 has stated a point about precedent being a double-edged sword. Maybe we need a refresher on it.
4. If the "known stance of the Blues not to hand out NMC" eventually costs us another top-tier player currently on the roster, I can count on you to blame that player too for asking for something unreasonable that no one else gets, no matter who it is and what they've done for us - right? Right?

And you know all of this how? Source?

Weird - and by "weird" I mean "completely predictable" - that if someone else leaps to wild assertions unsubstantiated by anything reported it's totally OK, but when I ask a question it elicits demands for proof. On what we know about contract negotiations: see above.

I read other speculation going back to the 2019 training camp that Armstrong had been informed by Meehan

And you know all of this how? Source? Is that first-hand info, is it from a reliable reporter, or is it I heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone who knows this guy at an Italian eatery in the Central West End who knows someone who said info?

And so now I ask if you’re cool with a player that says “f*** my teammates who want a reasonable new contract to stay here and win another Cup, I’m breaking the bank!”

Yeah, I'm cool with it. That's the entire point of unrestricted free agency: you're not bound to the team who has your rights and have to negotiate with arbitration your only real leverage unless you can somehow convince another team to tender an offer sheet everyone knows is extremely likely to be matched, you're free to talk to other teams and find the deal that you believe best suits your interests if you can't get something from your then-current team that fits your needs. If that means the player ends up having to go somewhere else, ... hey, their choice. I don't go calling him "a piece of shit for trying to f*** the team over by trying to get every last dollar he can."

 

[Ted Hoffman]

When is the last time you built a cup winning roster?

When is the first time you built one? Hell, when's the first time you built any roster beyond on your favorite game system? The demand for complete deference to authority as if it can NEVER be questioned is mind-boggling.

 

[Xerloris]

We have what Jeremy Rutherford has reported. If you think it's wrong, by all means - point out all the errors and help set the record straight for everyone. Until then, that's everything we have to rely on at the moment, for better or for worse.


1. "I don't think" is an opinion, not a fact.
2. You have no idea whether Armstrong did it to spite a player [and/or the player's representatives] - because .......... wait for it ........... you're making an assumption about something you don't know anything about.
3. @EastonBlues22 has stated a point about precedent being a double-edged sword. Maybe we need a refresher on it.
4. If the "known stance of the Blues not to hand out NMC" eventually costs us another top-tier player currently on the roster, I can count on you to blame that player too for asking for something unreasonable that no one else gets, no matter who it is and what they've done for us - right? Right?


"

You state your opinions as fact, I state my opinions as just that, an opinion. You're correct about #4. If a player knows the franchise has never and will never give out a NMC and they leave because of that then they're simply using it as an excuse when they wanted to leave all along.

 

[Blueline2757]

When is the last time you built a cup winning roster?

I've built a cup winning team in eanhl and sim hockey so I know I cup winning roster when I see one and the Blues don't have one. Army did have one but he threw it all away.

 

[Xerloris]

When is the first time you built one? Hell, when's the first time you built any roster beyond on your favorite game system? The demand for complete deference to authority as if it can NEVER be questioned is mind-boggling.

I'm not the one claiming I know better than the person who has built one. All because your favorite player ditched you.

 

[Xerloris]

I've built a cup winning team in eanhl and sim hockey so I know I cup winning roster when I see one and the Blues don't have one. Army did have one but he threw it all away.

maybe you'll answer this time.

I'm very curious about how you felt the first half of the 2018-2019 season. We had a fully healthy team including your hero and our defense was worse than it is now. What was the excuse for that? What about your solution? What about when we missed the playoffs in 2017-2018?

 

[MissouriMook]

Weird - and by "weird" I mean "completely predictable" - that if someone else leaps to wild assertions unsubstantiated by anything reported it's totally OK, but when I ask a question it elicits demands for proof. On what we know about contract negotiations: see above.


And you know all of this how? Source? Is that first-hand info, is it from a reliable reporter, or is it I heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone who knows this guy at an Italian eatery in the Central West End who knows someone who said info?

."

You post a completely unsubstantiated supposition as if it were fact, and when someone points out that other unsubstantiated suppositions exist that contradict yours, this is your response? Your post is the discussion board equivalent of

 

[Blueline2757]

maybe you'll answer this time.

I'm very curious about how you felt the first half of the 2018-2019 season. We had a fully healthy team including your hero and our defense was worse than it is now. What was the excuse for that? What about your solution? What about when we missed the playoffs in 2017-2018?

2018-19 season Back on free agency when the ROR trade came down I called the Blues Stanley Cup winners. The first half of the season, Yeah I was upset and said some things but I still believed in them I don't need to tell the rest of the story.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I'm not the one claiming I know better than the person who has built one. All because your favorite player ditched you.

Try asking me who my favorite player is, instead of pretending you have any clue you know when we both know you have no idea. I can guarantee it wasn't, never has been, and still isn't today, Pietrangelo.

maybe you'll answer this time.

I'm very curious about how you felt the first half of the 2018-2019 season. We had a fully healthy team including your hero and our defense was worse than it is now. What was the excuse for that? What about your solution? What about when we missed the playoffs in 2017-2018?

Weird, this is the first time we've talked about this. OK, I'll bite.

1. Pietrangelo is not my hero. If you want to play the "words shoved into a mouth" game, go for it. It'll get you ignored, but you can at least feel better about yourself ... or, something like that.

2. Mike Yeo was the excuse. I talked about it, everyone talked about it. It was raised going into the season. There was no way on God's green earth this team was going to rise to elite levels with Yeo coaching this team, considering he [along with Jake Allen] had been shittastic down the stretch in 2017-18 and it was readily apparent after the Columbus game on October 25 that he was clueless and needed to be replaced. The fact that Allen was still guessing at pucks and threatening to be outplayed by Chad freaking Johnson was a giant cherry on top of everything. I could have [inexplicably, but possibly] been swayed into somehow believing Allen could finally get his shit together and been a #1 we could rely on in the postseason, but this franchise should have never gone into 2018-19 with Mike Yeo behind the Blues bench unless he bought a ticket and was watching from the stands.

3. If you can't figure out the solution for #2 based on what I wrote, there's no point in attempting to talk any further.

4. Again, see #2 - except there was a massive f***ing dose of "Jake Allen is f***ing worthless" as highlighted by his shitty ass play where he couldn't take angles, couldn't cover a post, couldn't protect the short side, couldn't stay in f***ing net, and generally couldn't just be slightly more competent than a cardboard cutout and quit killing his team with gut-wrenching goal allowed after goal allowed. Have we talked about him getting hurt in Colorado in the season finale and putting his ego over the team's playoff chances? Yeah, that too.

So ... about that "what would convince you that maybe Pietrangelo wasn't in the wrong" thing which you've now ignored two times. You want to finally answer that, or are you going to ignore it yet again? Honestly, I don't care if you ignore it - your repeated silence speaks volumes - but it'd be nice to know when (if ever) you might admit you could be wrong on your belief of who was a piece of shit and why.

You post a completely unsubstantiated supposition as if it were fact, and when someone points out that other unsubstantiated suppositions exist that contradict yours, this is your response?

This post is amusing because it's its own circular argument, and yet it's still gibberish. I've stated my source, it's not that hard to find especially since it's been linked to in at least the threads where we discussed Pietrangelo leaving, what we'd offer, how contract negotiations were going, and so forth.

YMMV, though.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I missed whatever triggered the same people reiterating the same arguments. I’m pretty sure we can pull up a thread from a few months ago where we have all made the same points. Is anyone here saying anything new?

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

2018-19 season Back on free agency when the ROR trade came down I called the Blues Stanley Cup winners. The first half of the season, Yeah I was upset and said some things but I still believed in them I don't need to tell the rest of the story.

Nice revisionist history coming from someone who was bashing Petro as a captain and player and wanted him shipped out as early as possible during that season.

 

[stl76]

I missed whatever triggered the same people reiterating the same arguments. I’m pretty sure we can pull up a thread from a few months ago where we have all made the same points. Is anyone here saying anything new?

Some novel character assassinations between posters, but nothing noteworthy.

 

[Blueline2757]

Nice revisionist history coming from someone who was bashing Petro as a captain and player and wanted him shipped out as early as possible during that season.

I'm not going to lie, Yeah I've said some choice words about Petro and wanted him gone even though the problems weren't his fault. But I still believed in the team.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Nice revisionist history coming from someone who was bashing Petro as a captain and player and wanted him shipped out as early as possible during that season.

Lol, I thought you were mistaking Vollie for someone else. It was true?!

You can’t make this stuff up.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I'm not going to lie, Yeah I've said some choice words about Petro and wanted him gone even though the problems weren't his fault. But I still believed in the team.

Is this the "shoot a hostage" approach some here advocated starting around 2014 when we weren't getting out of the 1st round?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

They hadn't even talked contract. Pietrangelo hadn't even said "here's what I want." That's really where we were, Armstrong was going to make decisions on what to do going forward based on I expect Pietrangelo to ask for ______, f*** him, I'll go get someone less and lob fairly big money at them and kick Pietrangelo to the curb even if it makes us worse as a result?

And ... you're totally cool with a GM who takes the "hurt the rest of the team to spite a player" approach?

This is not accurate. So many of y’all hate Armstrong for something that never happened. Petro team told Army what they wanted $ wise and that is why Army signed other folks.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

This is not accurate. So many of y’all hate Armstrong for something that never happened. Petro team told Army what they wanted $ wise and that is why Army signed other folks.

Actually, based on what's been reported it is accurate. Seriously, this isn't even difficult to look up considering stories with details have been linked a bunch of times.

Try re-reading all the posts I've made about this entire episode before you accuse me of hating on Armstrong for it. Also try re-reading what Easton, Vladdy, Brian39, et. al. have said about this. Or, call us all Armstrong haters or whatever today's popular label is. I don't care. But everything Jeremy Rutherford has reported and everything that's been reported by others around the league point to the same things:

• Pietrangelo wanted to do a deal after the Cup win, Armstrong pushed him off citing uncertainty about the future
• Armstrong proceeded to do long-term deals with Faulk in a sign-and-trade and with Schenn shortly after
• The two sides talked in October and weren't close
• Armstrong repeatedly demurred about talking contract with Pietrangelo during the season, and then again when everything was shut down
• While the league was shut down, Armstrong did 4/13.1 with Scandella despite alleged uncertainty about the future
• The two sides didn't sit down to talk again until after the Blues were knocked out of the bubble
• The two sides weren't remotely close to start
• The initial Blues offers were low - like, way low
• Pietrangelo was willing to move on term and dollars if he got other things he wanted; Armstrong wanted him to commit to a term and dollars before discussing anything else - something no one else in the league has ever heard of a GM doing players in general and certainly not with a star player
• Even after everything was done and Pietrangelo was off to Vegas, Armstrong was really vague on details of what he really offered - but it was interpreted by people as SEE, HE GAVE PETRO EVERYTHING HE WANTED [which Easton has beautifully illustrated the issue with a few times now].

Yes, there's a lot of missing pieces in there. I've repeatedly pointed it out, stated we need all the details to come out to truly understand what happened. And yet, I've never once called Armstrong a piece of shit for how things went. But for you or anyone else to claim all of that is false or some gross misrepresentation of what really happened, and for anyone to substitute their version of what really happened unsubstantiated by any reporting of any kind, is much more disingenuous than anything I, Easton, Brian, etc. get accused of.

If you want to dispute reporting above, offer up some links refuting it where the primary source isn't something like Todd's neighbor's dog. Otherwise, what JR has reported is what we've got to go by and that's what I continually reference when I talk about this subject without resorting to ungrounded supposition and hyperbole.

 

[Frenzy31]

Can we please table this shit? I think, we as a group, are a lot better then the petty crap being tossed around here and quite frankly the useless back and forth.

CAN WE PLEASE LET THIS THREAD JUST DIE ALREADY.


And yes, I did just notice the bold and Font items at the top. Back when I first started here, we didn't have that fancy stuff.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Actually, based on what's been reported it is accurate. Seriously, this isn't even difficult to look up considering stories with details have been linked a bunch of times.

Try re-reading all the posts I've made about this entire episode before you accuse me of hating on Armstrong for it. Also try re-reading what Easton, Vladdy, Brian39, et. al. have said about this. Or, call us all Armstrong haters or whatever today's popular label is. I don't care. But everything Jeremy Rutherford has reported and everything that's been reported by others around the league point to the same things:

• Pietrangelo wanted to do a deal after the Cup win, Armstrong pushed him off citing uncertainty about the future
• Armstrong proceeded to do long-term deals with Faulk in a sign-and-trade and with Schenn shortly after
• The two sides talked in October and weren't close
• Armstrong repeatedly demurred about talking contract with Pietrangelo during the season, and then again when everything was shut down
• While the league was shut down, Armstrong did 4/13.1 with Scandella despite alleged uncertainty about the future
• The two sides didn't sit down to talk again until after the Blues were knocked out of the bubble
• The two sides weren't remotely close to start
• The initial Blues offers were low - like, way low
• Pietrangelo was willing to move on term and dollars if he got other things he wanted; Armstrong wanted him to commit to a term and dollars before discussing anything else - something no one else in the league has ever heard of a GM doing players in general and certainly not with a star player
• Even after everything was done and Pietrangelo was off to Vegas, Armstrong was really vague on details of what he really offered - but it was interpreted by people as SEE, HE GAVE PETRO EVERYTHING HE WANTED [which Easton has beautifully illustrated the issue with a few times now].

Yes, there's a lot of missing pieces in there. I've repeatedly pointed it out, stated we need all the details to come out to truly understand what happened. And yet, I've never once called Armstrong a piece of shit for how things went. But for you or anyone else to claim all of that is false or some gross misrepresentation of what really happened, and for anyone to substitute their version of what really happened unsubstantiated by any reporting of any kind, is much more disingenuous than anything I, Easton, Brian, etc. get accused of.

If you want to dispute reporting above, offer up some links refuting it where the primary source isn't something like Todd's neighbor's dog. Otherwise, what JR has reported is what we've got to go by and that's what I continually reference when I talk about this subject without resorting to ungrounded supposition and hyperbole.

I’m sorry. I didn’t realize Petro’s agent’s mouthpiece at the Athletic was the only reporter. The big guys up in Canada reported that Perri had huge ask and that is why Army took steps he did. Sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative.

 

[ChuckLefley]

This team could sure use Pietrangelo.

 

[Thallis]

I’m sorry. I didn’t realize Petro’s agent’s mouthpiece at the Athletic was the only reporter. The big guys up in Canada reported that Perri had huge ask and that is why Army took steps he did. Sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative.

Post your source and details. Even if JR was acting as a mouthpiece for Pietrangelo's agent, he doesn't straight up lie. To a lot of people 7-8 million alone qualifies as a "huge ask." Without any other context or details that statement doesn't convey any tangible meaning.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I’m sorry. I didn’t realize Petro’s agent’s mouthpiece at the Athletic was the only reporter. The big guys up in Canada reported that Perri had huge ask and that is why Army took steps he did. Sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative.

So, "Petro's mouthpiece at the Athletic" who's notorious for not criticizing the current Blues GM on multiple items in order to maintain a relationship with him for access to information and future articles, THIS ONE TIME, went rogue and spun stories one-sided to paint Pietrangelo as a saint while demonizing Armstrong - even though nothing in the reporting JR did was remotely close to that. It's not even Schrödinger's Reporting. It's something 38-quantum dimensional which only you apparently understand.

Post a link to your claim and explain how that differs from anything I've stated. Even better, just point out one time where I ever said what Pietrangelo asked for was something totally reasonable and the Blues should have handed it over, no questions asked, no modifications to the request made.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

So, "Petro's mouthpiece at the Athletic" who's notorious for not criticizing the current Blues GM on multiple items in order to maintain a relationship with him for access to information and future articles, THIS ONE TIME, went rogue and spun stories one-sided to paint Pietrangelo as a saint while demonizing Armstrong - even though nothing in the reporting JR did was remotely close to that. It's not even Schrödinger's Reporting. It's something 38-quantum dimensional which only you apparently understand.

Post a link to your claim and explain how that differs from anything I've stated. Even better, just point out one time where I ever said what Pietrangelo asked for was something totally reasonable and the Blues should have handed it over, no questions asked, no modifications to the request made.

LeBrun had good overview of situation that strongly implies Petro camp wanted north of 9. LeBrun: What’s a fair deal for Roman Josi and Alex Pietrangelo? Executives and agents share their thoughts

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Post your source and details. Even if JR was acting as a mouthpiece for Pietrangelo's agent, he doesn't straight up lie. To a lot of people 7-8 million alone qualifies as a "huge ask." Without any other context or details that statement doesn't convey any tangible meaning.

Here is additional reporting from Strick:

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Y’all are welcome to apologize now.