Proposal: EDM - CGY

[dgibb10]

I still like Hanifin, he was remarkably under appreciated for atleast 2 years as a Flame and only got the credit he was due by fans last year. You’re still terribly wrong, and I say this as a big analytics guy, but if it’s not backing up the eye test even slightly you have to ask yourself the context that isn’t being covered. Like the fact of his brutal car accident, or the years he was paired with Hanifin also happened to coincide with Sutter’s best analytic years as a Flames coach. Any Flames fan will tell you Andersson was our best D-man every year sans last year since Giordano was a Flame, and he carried the Hanifin pairing. I once again say that as one of Hanifin’s loudest supporters, you’re just terribly wrong and don’t seem at all dissuaded by the people who actually watched the games are disagreeing with you.

To quote you, "Flames fans are atrocious at appreciating him". So why would I listen to them?

You're right I should listen about who did the work on that pairing.

Because Hanifin has much better numbers without Andersson than vice versa

I've been very underwhelmed by Andersson outside of his time paired with Hanifin.

 

[dgibb10]

Again 3 season sample size. Over the years 21/22, 22/23, and 23/24, in my personal opinion Andersson was better than those defenseman. Andersson had a bad 23/24 season, Sergachev however had an even worse one, and prior to then I considered the 2 very close. So edge Andersson.

It is my personal opinion on defenseman ranks, why do you care so much about every minute detail? If we extend the list another 5 spots to top 30 it would absolutely include Sergachev, and maybe include the others. I am not actively keeping a list that I consistently update though.


That doesn't make sense? Ignoring 21/22 does not take away from the fact that Andersson had excellent possession metrics. You argued that he didn't despite Calgary's system, not that others had better metrics in that same system. Stop merging 2 completely separate topics.

Weegar is better, he's basically identical to Devon Toews. Great defensively and strong offensively. An elite #2. Andersson is better offensively than Weegar but not by a whole lot. Tanev is without question the 4th best of those 4 defensemen, he is fantastic in his own end but provides almost zero offense.

Again. I can't for the life of me understand why you are so obsessed with being right here? You've rarely ever seen any of these guys play so your entire argument is based on analytics. As another poster said above Hanifin is an analytic darling. And as I've said many times Hanifin takes a lot of shots which boost his numbers a lot.

Think about it this way, Dougie is an analytic darling too, so much that he looks like a stellar 2-way defenseman on stat sheets but you've watched him play, he is great offensively but heavily relies on his partner for defense.

Again, hanifins actual goal numbers match up perfectly to his expected goals numbers.

Andersson had the worst possession metrics of the 4.

Also you can't have this "Hanifin's numbers are a product of Tanev" while also trying to claim Tanev wasn't that good.

Sergachev got hurt lmao, he was tanked by the fact that Jonas Johansson is f***ing atrocious.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Again, hanifins actual goal numbers match up perfectly to his expected goals numbers.

Andersson had the worst possession metrics of the 4.View attachment 926957

Also you can't have this "Hanifin's numbers are a product of Tanev" while also trying to claim Tanev wasn't that good.

Sergachev got hurt lmao, he was tanked by the fact that Jonas Johansson is f***ing atrocious.

????????????????????????????????????? Selective reading is a marvelous skill.

 

[Yepthatsme]

View attachment 926946
To quote you, "Flames fans are atrocious at appreciating him". So why would I listen to them?

You're right I should listen about who did the work on that pairing.
View attachment 926947
Because Hanifin has much better numbers without Andersson than vice versa

I've been very underwhelmed by Andersson outside of his time paired with Hanifin.

So once again, you quote the biggest supporter he had, who seems to believe in the numbers you do, and has argued for Hanifin continuously while watching him nightly, and while I tell you Andersson has always been better you think your stats sheet is more correct? Let alone all the other Flames fans? Cute you searched through my history, you can really see how much of a supporter I am to hopefully convince you it’s not the right opinion.

Hanifin’s with and without number away from Andersson is almost exclusively with Tanev mind you, the equivalent we have to Backlund amongst our defense of just fixing everything and everyone he plays with. Other context you’re supposed to take into account when you look at these charts.

Hanifin is a fantastic defenseman and a top pair guy, Andersson is just the least talked about 1D in the league that people still just call a “top 4 guy”

 

[dgibb10]

Again 3 season sample size. Over the years 21/22, 22/23, and 23/24, in my personal opinion Andersson was better than those defenseman. Andersson had a bad 23/24 season, Sergachev however had an even worse one, and prior to then I considered the 2 very close. So edge Andersson.

It is my personal opinion on defenseman ranks, why do you care so much about every minute detail? If we extend the list another 5 spots to top 30 it would absolutely include Sergachev, and maybe include the others. I am not actively keeping a list that I consistently update though.


That doesn't make sense? Ignoring 21/22 does not take away from the fact that Andersson had excellent possession metrics. You argued that he didn't despite Calgary's system, not that others had better metrics in that same system. Stop merging 2 completely separate topics.

Weegar is better, he's basically identical to Devon Toews. Great defensively and strong offensively. An elite #2. Andersson is better offensively than Weegar but not by a whole lot. Tanev is without question the 4th best of those 4 defensemen, he is fantastic in his own end but provides almost zero offense.

Again. I can't for the life of me understand why you are so obsessed with being right here? You've rarely ever seen any of these guys play so your entire argument is based on analytics. As another poster said above Hanifin is an analytic darling. And as I've said many times Hanifin takes a lot of shots which boost his numbers a lot.

Think about it this way, Dougie is an analytic darling too, so much that he looks like a stellar 2-way defenseman on stat sheets but you've watched him play, he is great offensively but heavily relies on his partner for defense.

Hamilton's analytics do not paint him as a defensive stud lmao.

Dougie's analytical edge is because he generates a metric f***ton of offense.

Just as a quick reference I made a list of about 44 dman I would probably take over andersson. (some I would have to do a deeper dive into).

None of them generate more shots than Hamilton EV.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

If you haven’t learned Gibb’s methodology by this point, here it is:

Any stat that sort of supports his narrative is gospel.
Any stat that doesn’t support his narrative is not valid.
Doesn’t watch any Flames games.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Hamilton's analytics do not paint him as a defensive stud lmao.

Dougie's analytical edge is because he generates a metric f***ton of offense.

Just as a quick reference I made a list of about 44 dman I would probably take over andersson. (some I would have to do a deeper dive into).

None of them generate more shots than Hamilton EV.
View attachment 926958

That's your list of guys better than Rasmus Andersson? Ok there is nothing else to discuss here. Go back to the Nemec to Montreal thread and waste someone else's time

 

[dgibb10]

If you haven’t learned Gibb’s methodology by this point, here it is:

Any stat that sort of supports his narrative is gospel.
Any stat that doesn’t support his narrative is not valid.
Doesn’t watch any Flames games.

You thought they were worth the same amount of money heading into 2023-24 and had Hanifin as "similar impact to weegar". (also, Money talks, 6 mill a year to andersson as a UFA doesn't exactly scream "I think this guy is a number 1 D")

Then in the 23-24 season, you had Hanifin as the 2nd best player on the flames and Andersson and Weegar as underperforming

So if you didn't have them a step ahead of hanifin going into last year, and hanifin was significantly better last year, what could have changed your tune. Perhaps it is the fact that Hanifin plays for a different team now?

So once again, you quote the biggest supporter he had, who seems to believe in the numbers you do, and has argued for Hanifin continuously while watching him nightly, and while I tell you Andersson has always been better you think your stats sheet is more correct? Let alone all the other Flames fans? Cute you searched through my history, you can really see how much of a supporter I am to hopefully convince you it’s not the right opinion.

Hanifin’s with and without number away from Andersson is almost exclusively with Tanev mind you, the equivalent we have to Backlund amongst our defense of just fixing everything and everyone he plays with. Other context you’re supposed to take into account when you look at these charts.

Hanifin is a fantastic defenseman and a top pair guy, Andersson is just the least talked about 1D in the league that people still just call a “top 4 guy”

So you agree that Tanev>Andersson?

Or is Tanev only a stud when it's an excuse for why every dman plays better away from Andersson?

 

[Yepthatsme]

You thought they were worth the same amount of money heading into 2023-24 and had Hanifin as "similar impact to weegar". (also, Money talks, 6 mill a year to andersson as a UFA doesn't exactly scream "I think this guy is a number 1 D")
View attachment 926960View attachment 926962
Then in the 23-24 season, you had Hanifin as the 2nd best player on the flames and Andersson and Weegar as underperformingView attachment 926961

So if you didn't have them a step ahead of hanifin going into last year, and hanifin was significantly better last year, what could have changed your tune. Perhaps it is the fact that Hanifin plays for a different team now?


So you agree that Tanev>Andersson?

Or is Tanev only a stud when it's an excuse for why every dman plays better away from Andersson?

Tanev is a defensive stud who is capable of elevating any pair, and is a top defensive defenseman in this league. Andersson is a two way stud, and is capable of providing great 5v5 offense as well as defense at the same time. Nuance does not seem to be a strong suit of yours. For the same reason Slavin is one of if not the best defensive defenseman in the league and an analytic darling, yet is not better than Makar, Tanev is fantastic defensively but does not provide the ability Andersson does. It’s as simple as that. Once again you’re barking up the wrong tree because that’s my favorite kind of defenseman, you probably so saw in my post history me rooting for Silayev as the Flame’s pick.

I’m sorry but those charts we both love need context and to match the eye test to be relevant. You weirdly seem to have no interest in what people who have actually seen the game and understand the context seem to have to say.

Me and @Tkachuk Norris were part of Hanifin’s biggest fan club, if both of us are telling you are wrong it’s time to call a spade a spade man.

 

[HuGort]

Rasmus Andersson 28, RHD $4.25M AAV X 2 Years then UFA, or $2.125M @50% retained



2026 Oilers 1st round pick
2027 Oilers 1st round pick
Sam O'Reilly or Matthew Savoie, Calgary's choice
Derek Ryan, C, $900,000 AAV X1

Okay Oiler fans, don't freak. Edmonton is effectively giving up three 1sts but Rasmus is a legit top pairing RHD and it's our provincial rival. It would cost premium to get him. Rasmus is exactly what this team needs on the back end. Probably an overpay but if we want the cup it will take a futures heavy package like this to get it. Plus retention to make the cap work.

This gives the Oilers a two year window to go for it. No extension is pre-negotiated in this trade scenario. If they fail to get it done it wouldn't be for lack of trying.

Derek Ryan is there for cap purposes and as a former Calgary Flame they'd probably welcome him back in a limited role.

Calgary gets the Oilers best picks moving forward and can rub it in their faces when and if they pan out. The Oilers don't draft in the first round again until 2028. The Flames effectively choke the development pipeline of their rivals for a few years.

Edmonton had better get really good at drafting NHL level players in the later rounds really quick.

Trading Savoie so quick?

 

[TFHockey]

Trading Savoie so quick?

Only for defensive help on the right side. Very GOOD defensive help. Not a bottom pairing guy elevated to the 2nd pairing, which seems to be the only strategy the Oilers seem to be able to implement.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Trading Savoie so quick?

It makes sense here. Andersson isn't a rental, and he would fill the biggest hole on the team, by anchoring the right side on our 2nd defense pair. We've needed an upgrade there for a decade, trading Savoie and some picks to fill that hole with a guy we can afford and would have for at least another year would be something we absolutely have to strongly consider. It's unlikely to happen due to the two teams being rivals and not liking to trade with one another, but it would help both franchises, given their current directions.

 

[DJJones]

I don't get it, is he saying Tanev was our best defensemen? He can just tell from looking at a spreadsheet and is flabbergasted how everyone that watches the team daily doesn't agree.

But now that Andersson is healthy, yep, back to our best player this year.

And Hanifin, 0.5ppg and the teams third best D.

Balance has been restored haha

 

[dgibb10]

I don't get it, is he saying Tanev was our best defensemen? He can just tell from looking at a spreadsheet and is flabbergasted how everyone that watches the team daily doesn't agree.

But now that Andersson is healthy, yep, back to our best player this year.

And Hanifin, 0.5ppg and the teams third best D.

Balance has been restored haha

Pietrangelo and Theodore > Andersson too

Tanev is a defensive stud who is capable of elevating any pair, and is a top defensive defenseman in this league. Andersson is a two way stud, and is capable of providing great 5v5 offense as well as defense at the same time. Nuance does not seem to be a strong suit of yours. For the same reason Slavin is one of if not the best defensive defenseman in the league and an analytic darling, yet is not better than Makar, Tanev is fantastic defensively but does not provide the ability Andersson does. It’s as simple as that. Once again you’re barking up the wrong tree because that’s my favorite kind of defenseman, you probably so saw in my post history me rooting for Silayev as the Flame’s pick.

I’m sorry but those charts we both love need context and to match the eye test to be relevant. You weirdly seem to have no interest in what people who have actually seen the game and understand the context seem to have to say.

Me and @Tkachuk Norris were part of Hanifin’s biggest fan club, if both of us are telling you are wrong it’s time to call a spade a spade man.

I do not think Andersson is good defensively.

Makar is a different level offensively. Andersson isn't.

Makar is also much better defensively than Andersson. Hence why people DO think Slavin is better than Hamilton for example.

If I went around asking only fans of teams to rank players, I'd end up with 60 number 1 dmen.

 

[Yepthatsme]

Pietrangelo and Theodore > Andersson too


I do not think Andersson is good defensively.

You would be wrong then? He definitely is at his best when he plays with a defensively minded player like Bahl this year or when Hanifin took that role so he can take way more risks with the puck, but he is still pretty great in his own end.

 

[dgibb10]

You would be wrong then? He definitely is at his best when he plays with a defensively minded player like Bahl this year or when Hanifin took that role so he can take way more risks with the puck, but he is still pretty great in his own end.

And regarding this year I think, as they so often do, fans are getting fooled by optimisim, bias, and luck.

Bahl and Andersson are at around 45% xGoals share this year. But riding a 12% on ice shooting and 0.945 on ice goaltending makes things look a lot prettier to the "eye test" people.

 

[Yepthatsme]

And regarding this year I think, as they so often do, fans are getting fooled by optimisim, bias, and luck.

Bahl and Andersson are at around 45% xGoals share this year. But riding a 12% on ice shooting and 0.945 on ice goaltending makes things look a lot prettier to the "eye test" people.

You really don’t seem to understand the stats you quote. Obviously they have a sub 50 xG% share, they are on a team many predicted would be a bottom 10 team. The only other pair Calgary gives serious time to is Weegar-Miromanov, and they are operating at a 39.8 xG%. Calgary as a whole is 46.12. Yet Bahl-Andersson is at 47.9 xG%, with the heaviest defensive usage and quality of competition by a country mile on the team. You don’t even need an eye test, just expand your scope so you can actually see the whole picture.

 

[Figgy44]

You really don’t seem to understand the stats you quote. Obviously they have a sub 50 xG% share, they are on a team many predicted would be a bottom 10 team. The only other pair Calgary gives serious time to is Weegar-Miromanov, and they are operating at a 39.8 xG%. Calgary as a whole is 46.12. Yet Bahl-Andersson is at 47.9 xG%, with the heaviest defensive usage and quality of competition by a country mile on the team. You don’t even need an eye test, just expand your scope so you can actually see the whole picture.

WHAT???

The stats can say they're above average in a below average situation? My goodness. What a world.

 

[dgibb10]

You really don’t seem to understand the stats you quote. Obviously they have a sub 50 xG% share, they are on a team many predicted would be a bottom 10 team. The only other pair Calgary gives serious time to is Weegar-Miromanov, and they are operating at a 39.8 xG%. Calgary as a whole is 46.12. Yet Bahl-Andersson is at 47.9 xG%, with the heaviest defensive usage and quality of competition by a country mile on the team. You don’t even need an eye test, just expand your scope so you can actually see the whole picture.

His usage is definitely above average, but it's nothing ridiculous.

And personally I'd say if we're talking about a guy who you're saying has been one of the best dman in the league so far this year, the standard should be higher than "not losing minutes in as bad as the other pairing".

Especially when frankly, you haven't had the previous standard of success.

Zach Werenski, Seth Jones, Dahlin, and even Jake Walman are all winning their minutes right now on shit teams too

As I've said, outside of being attached to Hanifin, Andersson has NEVER dominated his minutes, even on a good team.

The Weegar lack of results makes me lower on him too.

It seems like both needed Hanifin and/or Tanev. Even when they tried to put Andersson and Weegar TOGETHER last year it didn't work. They had the same forward groups. Hanifin and Tanev won their minutes. Weegar and Andersson did not.

A guy who sucked last year simply does not get the benefit of the doubt from me, especially to call him a top 25 dman in hockey over guys who are dominating while helping their team win hockey games