Proposal: Edm/Ana

[mytduxfan*]

what are the signs that a team is in "win now" mode then? It can't possibly be that their 3 highest paid players are 31-32 years old because that would mean 1/2 the league is in "win now" mode. So what signs should I be looking for?

Yes, most teams are in "win now" mode. The whole point this league is to "win". Not to hoard young assets and picks, not to draft as a high as possible, not make the fans "happy" by making dumb long-term UFA signings that will be awful a few years down the line. The whole point is to win. We're one of those teams looking to compete now, but there are many others. Some decide to compete at the expense of their future, we don't. That doesn't mean we're not competing or in "win now" mode.

We traded young assets for Kesler. That's a win now move. Just because BM isn't wasting 1st round pick after 1st round pick on what ultimately turn out to be useless rentals at every TDL doesn't change that we're a win now team.

 

[tomd]

Yes, most teams are in "win now" mode. The whole point this league is to "win". Not to hoard young assets and picks, not to draft as a high as possible, not make the fans "happy" by making dumb long-term UFA signings that will be awful a few years down the line. The whole point is to win. We're one of those teams looking to compete now, but there are many others. Some decide to compete at the expense of their future, we don't. That doesn't mean we're not competing or in "win now" mode.

We traded young assets for Kesler. That's a win now move. Just because BM isn't wasting 1st round pick after 1st round pick on what ultimately turn out to be useless rentals at every TDL doesn't change that we're a win now team.

"win now" has a specific connotation as it relates to sports which almost always indicates that a team is willing to forego the future in order to maximize the present. I just don't see the Ducks going in that direction. Do they want to "win now"? of course and so does virtually every other team. Are they willing to sacrifice the future to do so? I don't see signs of that at all. In fact, GMBM openly lamented trading Karlsson a couple of years ago in a "win now" type of trade. Kesler was a pure hockey trade that addressed a major weakness and while it did involve a 1st, the Ducks had a higher 1st and an extra 2nd that year to offset it.

The other point which bears mentioning is that GMBM openly admitted that he was close to taking steps to make the team "younger" following their slow start this past season. That doesn't sound like a GM who is in "win now" mode as it is commonly defined. I think GMBM will do whatever it takes to make the team better for both today and tomorrow. If he could make a sensible trade for a high end prospect like Puj I'm sure he would even if that player didn't make major contributions this year.

 

[Seachd]

Puljujarvi for Vatanen. Keep it simple, value for value, low cap hit to low cap hit. Edmonton needs defense, Anaheim offense.

Vatanen doesn't have near that kind of value.

 

[tomd]

Vatanen doesn't have near that kind of value.

really? what defenseman does in your mind? Doughty? I'm not saying either team would make that trade but Vatanen is the type of D that EVERY team is looking for right now.

 

[CupofOil]

Puljujarvi is a RW Anaheim already has tons of those. BM is seeking a LW for Fowler or possibly Vatanen in this instance. I doubt Anaheim does this.

Are you kidding? Anaheim does that in a split second for pure value alone.

 

[mytduxfan*]

"win now" has a specific connotation as it relates to sports which almost always indicates that a team is willing to forego the future in order to maximize the present. I just don't see the Ducks going in that direction. Do they want to "win now"? of course and so does virtually every other team. Are they willing to sacrifice the future to do so? I don't see signs of that at all. In fact, GMBM openly lamented trading Karlsson a couple of years ago in a "win now" type of trade. Kesler was a pure hockey trade that addressed a major weakness and while it did involve a 1st, the Ducks had a higher 1st and an extra 2nd that year to offset it.

The other point which bears mentioning is that GMBM openly admitted that he was close to taking steps to make the team "younger" following their slow start this past season. That doesn't sound like a GM who is in "win now" mode as it is commonly defined. I think GMBM will do whatever it takes to make the team better for both today and tomorrow. If he could make a sensible trade for a high end prospect like Puj I'm sure he would even if that player didn't make major contributions this year.

That's a meaning you're choosing to draw from the term "win now", but it's not a universal one. To me, "win now" means win now in the literal sense i.e. we're making moves that are designed to help us win now. Trading Vatanen for Pul wouldn't be aligned with such a goal. You don't have to sacrifice your future to win the cup and saying that a team is in "win now" mode does not automatically mean that they're moving young assets for ageing players.

BM has made the team younger by trading Andersen for picks and then drafting prospects with those picks. Just because such moves didn't involve us moving out any of our 30+ players doesn't mean we're not getting any younger. If anything, that only confirms that BM wants to remain competitive and continue pushing for the cup i.e. we are still in "win now" mode.

 

[mytduxfan*]

Vatanen doesn't have near that kind of value.

Lol... yeah, he has more. Your kids aren't worth what you think.

Are you kidding? Anaheim does that in a split second for pure value alone.

No they don't. Vatanen has more value right now.

 

[Spazkat]

Are you kidding? Anaheim does that in a split second for pure value alone.

25 year old proven RHD, especially those that are capable PP QB's are worth their weight in gold right now.

 

[CupofOil]

Lol... yeah, he has more. Your kids aren't worth what you think.

No they don't. Vatanen has more value right now.

More proven =/= higher value. Puljujarvi is an elite prospect (could have battled for #1 in some recent draft years) who is NHL ready by many accounts on an ELC contract and is expansion exempt. That has massive value.

I like Vatanen, really wanted the Oilers to get him even while a good portion of the Oiler fanbase was calling him overrated, but there's just no way that I deal Pulju for him and I can't imagine that any GMs would either.

 

[dracom]

Are you kidding? Anaheim does that in a split second for pure value alone.

RHD, young, puck moving, offensive d-men > winger who has never played in the nhl; all day everyday.

Pulj isn't really that interesting of a prospect, he's definitely not one you trade Vatanen away for.

 

[dracom]

More proven =/= higher value. Puljujarvi is an elite prospect (could have battled for #1 in some recent draft years) who is NHL ready by many accounts on an ELC contract and is expansion exempt. That has massive value.

I like Vatanen, really wanted the Oilers to get him even while a good portion of the Oiler fanbase was calling him overrated, but there's just no way that I deal Pulju for him and I can't imagine that any GMs would either.

It's not a matter of more proven, it's a matter of one actually being successful in the NHL in a coveted position; and the other being someone who hasn't played in the NHL. Pulj also isn't an elite prospect, he's a very good prospect, but no where near elite.

 

[CupofOil]

It's not a matter of more proven, it's a matter of one actually being successful in the NHL in a coveted position; and the other being someone who hasn't played in the NHL. Pulj also isn't an elite prospect, he's a very good prospect, but no where near elite.

That's not how value works in the NHL and you can say he's not an elite prospect all you want but that would be a very minority opinion.

 

[mytduxfan*]

More proven =/= higher value. Puljujarvi is an elite prospect (could have battled for #1 in some recent draft years) who is NHL ready by many accounts on an ELC contract and is expansion exempt. That has massive value.

I like Vatanen, really wanted the Oilers to get him even while a good portion of the Oiler fanbase was calling him overrated, but there's just no way that I deal Pulju for him and I can't imagine that any GMs would either.

It's common on here to see fans overvaluing potential talent, but you're just straight up overrating Pul. He wouldn't have gone #1 in any recent drafts, that's just a pure fallacy. He dropped to 4th OA, you've got yourself a nice player who, with a some effort and a bit of luck, will likely top out as a decent 1st line winger. He's not the 2nd coming of Ovechkin or Benn 2.0. He's not the RW version of McDavid, Eichel, Matthews or even Laine. He's a decent top 5 prospects. He doesn't have the value you think. Prospects are generally overvalued on here, but you're being a bit silly on this one.

Anyway, if you're happy with him (why wouldn't you be), fine. We'll keep Vatanen, you keep Pul, and we're both happy.

 

[Seachd]

Lol... yeah, he has more. Your kids aren't worth what you think.

My kids, huh?

What exactly has Vatanen done to be worth a top 10 pick, let alone top 5? I'm not so sure Winnipeg would have jumped at the "chance" to trade the second for him.

Where, in your opinion, is the indication any of those teams would have traded those picks/prospects for Vatanen? Or does it only happen after Murray tells them "your kids aren't worth what you think"?

 

[CupofOil]

We'll keep Vatanen, you keep Pul, and we're both happy.

Now we're speaking the same language.

 

[mytduxfan*]

That's not how value works in the NHL and you can say he's not an elite prospect all you want but that would be a very minority opinion.

Oh... well then please... do tell us how value works in the NHL oh mighty lord of these boards, for we are simply people incapable of understanding.

Prospects are overrated on this board. I take everyone's opinions on the future upside of prospects, even my own, with a grain of salt. No one really has a clue. I'm have no doubt you were super high on Yakupov. How'd that turn out?

 

[Homesick]

It's not a matter of more proven, it's a matter of one actually being successful in the NHL in a coveted position; and the other being someone who hasn't played in the NHL. Pulj also isn't an elite prospect, he's a very good prospect, but no where near elite.

The consensus #3 player in this years draft(ISS had him #2) is no where near elite?

So you would agree that Nick Ritchie and Shea Theodore are average(at best) prospects?

 

[Homesick]

It's common on here to see fans overvaluing potential talent, but you're just straight up overrating Pul. He wouldn't have gone #1 in any recent drafts, that's just a pure fallacy. He dropped to 4th OA, you've got yourself a nice player who, with a some effort and a bit of luck, will likely top out as a decent 1st line winger. He's not the 2nd coming of Ovechkin or Benn 2.0. He's not the RW version of McDavid, Eichel, Matthews or even Laine. He's a decent top 5 prospects. He doesn't have the value you think. Prospects are generally overvalued on here, but you're being a bit silly on this one.

Anyway, if you're happy with him (why wouldn't you be), fine. We'll keep Vatanen, you keep Pul, and we're both happy.

Yea its just HFOil posters that think he just might be better than a decent 1st liner
https://www.nhl.com/news/finnish-talent-puljujarvi-draws-selanne-comparisons/c-784116
I'll take a pro's opinion over yours all day everyday. Actually I challenge you to find a pro's opinion that says he'll be "decent"

 

[mytduxfan*]

My kids, huh?

What exactly has Vatanen done to be worth a top 10 pick, let alone top 5? I'm not so sure Winnipeg would have jumped at the "chance" to trade the second for him.

Where, in your opinion, is the indication any of those teams would have traded those picks/prospects for Vatanen? Or does it only happen after Murray tells them "your kids aren't worth what you think"?

Errr... what has Pul done to deserve being worth a proven top 4D and PP QB on a contending team? Where, in your opinion, is the indication that Pul would get you Vatanen? I don't need to prove that a deal wouldn't happen because "guess what", it hasn't happened. The burden of proof is in your court, not mine.

Regardless, I don't think those teams would trade those assets for Vatanen because they need those assets. The only teams that trade young assets for older, more proven talent, are those looking to win now. Teams drafting in the top 5 aren't looking to win now. They're looking to rebuild and are happy to wait for younger assets, with higher potential talent, emphasis on the word "potential", to develop. Hence, those deals rarely, if ever, go through. However, the reason they never go through has nothing to with top 5 picks who could become good one day having more value then proven talent that is already good and a whole lot to do with the teams owning those top 5 picks just needing them for their rebuild more then older players.

 

[Duck Off]

The day he starts trading top prospects and #1 picks for aging veterans is the day I'll believe that he is in "win now" mode.

We'll just agree to disagree then. Just because he doesn't sell out every deadline, doesn't mean he doesn't view the team as "win now".

 

[OilTastic]

Pass. We're a win now team. I don't even rate Pul.

^

 

[Seachd]

Errr... what has Pul done to deserve being worth a proven top 4D and PP QB on a contending team? Where, in your opinion, is the indication that Pul would get you Vatanen? I don't need to prove that a deal wouldn't happen because "guess what", it hasn't happened. The burden of proof is in your court, not mine.

The burden of proof is mine? Why, because you don't feel like backing your opinion up?

How's this? You show me how many times a 25 year old top 3-4 defenseman has been traded for either a top 5 pick, or a player chosen with a top five pick (or a package containing either) in the past however many years, take your pick.

Now count how many times those players have been traded for less in that same period. If your time period is somewhere around the last 15 years, the ratio will be approximately X:0.

It doesn't happen. And regarding your other paragraph, of course it's value. If a team (or teams around the league) think a player has the potential to be a top-flight or franchise guy, of course that's going to affect his trade value.

So if you really believe what you're saying, what do you think is the reason the Oilers (obviously) wouldn't trade Puljujarvi (a player whose type they don't have and need) for Vatanen (a player whose type they don't have and need)?
[/QUOTE]

 

[mytduxfan*]

The consensus #3 player in this years draft(ISS had him #2) is no where near elite?

So you would agree that Nick Ritchie and Shea Theodore are average(at best) prospects?

You do realise that your opinion and everyone else's on here carries the same value, right? Draft position is all relative and does not give any sort of indication of what level that player will end up at. You can't just say "he was drafted 4th OA, so he's elite". That's not how it works. If the draft is a weak draft or very shallow, it may be that only the top 2 are elite talents or even just #1 OA. Equally, if you have a very deep draft, you could get elite talents much deeper. Not every draft is the 2003 draft and not every prospect drafted hits their ceiling. I'm 100% sure that throughout the years there have been more guys drafted 4th OA that turned out not to be "elite" talents then there have that turned out to be elite talents.

Yea its just HFOil posters that think he just might be better than a decent 1st liner
https://www.nhl.com/news/finnish-talent-puljujarvi-draws-selanne-comparisons/c-784116
I'll take a pro's opinion over yours all day everyday. Actually I challenge you to find a pro's opinion that says he'll be "decent"

Jarmo Kekäläinen

 

[CupofOil]

Oh... well then please... do tell us how value works in the NHL oh mighty lord of these boards, for we are simply people incapable of understanding.


Prospects are overrated on this board. I take everyone's opinions on the future upside of prospects, even my own, with a grain of salt. No one really has a clue. I'm have no doubt you were super high on Yakupov. How'd that turn out?

I could do without the childish attitude but I'll bite anyway.

I was responding to the poster who said that Vatanen has more value because he has a track record of NHL success while Puljujarvi has never played a game in the NHL.
You know very well that it's not as simple as that. There are many other factors that go into gauging value than simply proven vs. not proven.

Also, highly drafted forwards like Puljujarvi almost always have a high track record of NHL success in the modern era with much more advanced scouting so chances are very high that he will do well in the league.

 

[Seachd]

Jarmo Kekäläinen

Link?