Dylan Holloway - 43gp 15g 17a +11

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And what does that hypothetical have to do with my post?

Like I said, I would have matched. Like I said the Oilers didn’t choose Skinner over Holloway, that was a decision made before the offer sheet. And like I said the Oilers replaced Holloway with Podkolzin, and it remains to be a good bet. For a $1M less you are getting a better defensive player with decent offence but not the good offence Holloway is providing.
End of the day it was still bad asset management. Oilers didn't put Holloway in a position to succeed, didn't prioritize re-signing Holloway in the offseason and put themselves in a position where they'd have a hard time matching.

Wasn't there posts that mentioned the Oilers had enough space and could've matched the OS if they wanted to, but they chose not to? Also not sure why you're viewing it as Podkolzin or Holloway. In retrospect, having both would have been by far the best option both now and in the future.
 
End of the day it was still bad asset management. Oilers didn't put Holloway in a position to succeed, didn't prioritize re-signing Holloway in the offseason and put themselves in a position where they'd have a hard time matching.

Wasn't there posts that mentioned the Oilers had enough space and could've matched the OS if they wanted to, but they chose not to? Also not sure why you're viewing it as Podkolzin or Holloway. In retrospect, having both would have been by far the best option both now and in the future.
Who’s saying it isn’t? How many times do I have to say they should have matched for people to understand I’m not saying they made the right move here.

The development of Holloway or Broberg was never the issue though. They are the players they are today because of the development path they took. With Holloway his shot at the NHL was last year, and he was sent back down for seasoning when needed and brought immediately back up when he was ready. Then given trust in the playoffs where he played great.

Podkolzin was brought in directly to replace Holloway. We know this cause Bowman said AFTER the offersheets came in they looked at their options in comparison to options on the market. Podkolzin being $1M cheaper and Emberson being $3.5M cheaper. Means they chose those players and an extra $4.5M in Cap as the option instead of matching. Much of that cap we won’t even see used until the TDL; which is where final evaluation of this move can be made from an asset management standpoint.
 
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Feel bad for McDavid and Draisaitl.... a little.

Those 2 should have a couple Cups but their ass management team keeps making the lifting ridiculously heavy

Holloway Foegele McLoed Broberg Ceci = 39g - 63a - 102pts +36 @ *15.73m
* which could have been closer to 14 if they got off their asses
- All younger faster harder on pucks and minus Ceci able to transport pucks north south and do some heavy lifting for a bunch of beat up geriatrics by NHL standards.

Holloway is particular has looked fantastic. Has games where he's the best Blues forward

Arvidsson Skinner Henrique Emberson Stecher = 21g - 32a - 53pts -2 @ 11.74

You are lucky that Canuck management must have been feeling sorry for them throwing Podkolzin your way. With the Kane surgery and LTIR there is an opportunity to make things better but wow what another poor off season. Imagine prioritizing Skinner who had been bought out over 2 young studs
 
And what does that hypothetical have to do with my post?

Like I said, I would have matched. Like I said the Oilers didn’t choose Skinner over Holloway, that was a decision made before the offer sheet. And like I said the Oilers replaced Holloway with Podkolzin, and it remains to be a good bet. For a $1M less you are getting a better defensive player with decent offence but not the good offence Holloway is providing.

Just rationalization thats unnecessary for an incompetent front office.
 
Feel bad for McDavid and Draisaitl.... a little.

Those 2 should have a couple Cups but their ass management team keeps making the lifting ridiculously heavy
I've told my fellow Oilers fan on our board that if the Oilers hired Zito instead of Holland after firing PC, (yes, Zito was available that summer, was interviewed, and was going to be GM until the Oilers realized Holland became available) there's a fair bet McDavid and Draisaitl would be chasing their 3rd cup by now. The organization just can't get out of it's own way, constantly bringing in the wrong people who are well past their expiration date.

Zito did an amazing job building the Panthers up the way he did. If he could get Barkov and Tkachuk a cup, could you imagine for a moment what he would of done to a team with McDavid and Draisaitl? I weep to think about what could of been...
 
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I've told my fellow Oilers fan on our board that if the Oilers hired Zito instead of Holland after firing PC, (yes, Zito was available that summer, was interviewed, and was going to be GM until the Oilers realized Holland became available) there's a fair bet McDavid and Draisaitl would be chasing their 3rd cup by now. The organization just can't get out of it's own way, constantly bringing in the wrong people who are well past their expiration date.

Zito did an amazing job building the Panthers up the way he did. If he could get Barkov and Tkachuk a cup, could you imagine for a moment what he would have done to a team with McDavid and Draisaitl? I weep to think about what could of been...
Half the moves Zito was able to get done in Florida wouldn’t have happened with out No Taxes and Palm Trees in Edmonton. Including his best move, the acquisition of Tkachuk to put them over the top.
 
I've told my fellow Oilers fan on our board that if the Oilers hired Zito instead of Holland after firing PC, (yes, Zito was available that summer, was interviewed, and was going to be GM until the Oilers realized Holland became available) there's a fair bet McDavid and Draisaitl would be chasing their 3rd cup by now. The organization just can't get out of it's own way, constantly bringing in the wrong people who are well past their expiration date.

Zito did an amazing job building the Panthers up the way he did. If he could get Barkov and Tkachuk a cup, could you imagine for a moment what he would of done to a team with McDavid and Draisaitl? I weep to think about what could of been...
Agree and i'm not trying to throw shade as Canuck fan because honestly as much as i'm not a Oiler fan i'm a fan of hockey and great players and it sucks to watch careers get squandered by greed and incompetence.
I really thought way back in 2017 playoffs that we need to brace for a decade of Oiler dominance. And even then with the playoff run i knew it was gonna probably take a few years to get the pieces lined up and some maturity but man o man so many poor off ice decisions that detracted from that.

And if anyone can relate it's fans of a team that employed Benning for 8yrs. Im actually shocked we even emerged with enough quality pieces for a competent group to make us a good team.

Will be very interesting. I still think you guys are the money line especially now that Kane is 5 million to spend on a D (well played) but management did almost everything to sabotage that in a month span and has been digging out trying to save face since.

Dylan Holloway has become a hell of a player. I saw it in our playoff series last year and he's more confident now and knows what he can do vs questioning himself. That STL move has hurt
 
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Half the moves Zito was able to get done in Florida wouldn’t have happened with out No Taxes and Palm Trees in Edmonton. Including his best move, the acquisition of Tkachuk to put them over the top.
Fair in a sense but you have palm trees and the names are Leon and Connor. Players will jump at an opportunity to be a champion.

If Chevy can do what he has in Winnipeg then that should be the minimum expectation. It should be higher there wth 2 of the most impossible to acquire cogs in place
 
Fair in a sense but you have palm trees and the names are Leon and Connor. Players will jump at an opportunity to be a champion.

If Chevy can do what he has in Winnipeg then that should be the minimum expectation. It should be higher there wth 2 of the most impossible to acquire cogs in place
Some players not all. We do get benefit from the McDrai effect but I don’t think it’s comparable to the bright lights of NYR or the Vegas strip or the sunshine of the Florida. Hyman specifically wanted to come here but it’s not like we got a discount, at the time he was offered the top end of what a player with Hymans profile could command. Ditto with Kane and Arviddson who were willing to come, but didn’t come at discounts to play with McDrai.

More impactful is the taxes. Take Zitos moves and add 15% to each Cap hit he was able to sign. And see how his roster shakes out after that.

You do make a good point with Chevy though. I will always give him props for what he is able to accomplish in Winnipeg. I would put him among one of the best GMs in the League considering what he has to work with. Oilers management has not done as well as Chevy, I will concede that.
 
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Some players not all. We do get benefit from the McDrai effect but I don’t think it’s comparable to the bright lights of NYR or the Vegas strip or the sunshine of the Florida. Hyman specifically wanted to come here but it’s not like we got a discount, at the time he was offered the top end of what a player with Hymans profile could command. Ditto with Kane and Arviddson who were willing to come, but didn’t come at discounts to play with McDrai.

More impactful is the taxes. Take Zitos moves and add 15% to each Cap hit he was able to sign. And see how his roster shakes out after that.

You do make a good point with Chevy though. I will always give him props for what he is able to accomplish in Winnipeg. I would put him among one of the best GMs in the League considering what he has to work with. Oilers management has not done as well as Chevy, I will concede that.
No doubt it's an advantage but more than anything poor management has plagued Canadian teams.

Dubas absolutely killed the Leafs with RFA contracts which mirrored Kane and Toews at almost UFA ages and after winning cups. When Covid came which was unfortunate they were done because they had scaled it all forward at max cap advancement projections and that didn't happen. Being shrewd and cautious would have afforded them some flexibility. He messed up

MTL had Bergevin who wasn't good at managing the Cap. He was a good guy and gave them a last shot but everyone knew a rebuild was coming and had squandered too many good years and assets to build a sustained winner.

EDM....terrible asset management. 2017-2022
*27yr old Eberle turned into Spooner in less than 2 yrs. Islanders were loving that in BTB conference finals.
*Not sure why you wouldn't have just kept Lucic to protect the McDrai vs wanting Neal.
*Griffin Reinhart
*Puljujarvi should have moved off that a lot sooner to get something.
*Koskinen Smith Campbell like WTF why so much term for these guys it's not like any of them had sustained success or were young. Koskinen was so bad he hadn't proven shit.I actually didnt mind Smith as he's a fiery competitor but geesh he was 37 and the team needed to find a longer term solution. Not like the top9 had more than 4 capable players? This poorly spent money took away a top6 at minimum and still left poor goaltending

Finally a couple top6 Kane Hyman middle sixers Mcloed Foegele and Bouchard Ekholm and you become a legit contender.
That only took 5yrs and a couple came through the draft? And then this off season?
Piss Poor
 
Half the moves Zito was able to get done in Florida wouldn’t have happened with out No Taxes and Palm Trees in Edmonton. Including his best move, the acquisition of Tkachuk to put them over the top.
I don't know. I would imagine Zito would of been smart enough to keep Holloway and Broberg, signing them to reasonable deals well before getting into this double offer sheet situation. He's always come across as a sharp minded guy who knows what he's doing. I recon Zito's brain would be enough to make up for Edmonton's lack of glamor.

Regardless, Holland horribly wasted those 2 young assets making an old team older and even though the Oilers have had a good season, they'd probably be winning the west at this very moment if they still had both of them on the roster.
 
SKinner was a calculated risk...but Holloway would have the same issue in Edmonton. Skinner isn't playing where he needs to be to be productive and he can't break in because the top 6 is basically set. Holloway definitely would not be getting the minutes and chance he is in the St Louis in Edmonton.


Skinner hasnt been that bad, he isn't scoring, but he is't playing in the top 6 and he isn't as bad defensively as people make out. Also, his contract is over at the end of the year. Skinner wasn't given a real run in the top 6 after October ( when the whole team was struggling).
Skinner is the worst player on the Oilers defensively and he is doing that bad against other 4th liners. Dudes abysmal away from the puck.
 
No doubt it's an advantage but more than anything poor management has plagued Canadian teams.

Dubas absolutely killed the Leafs with RFA contracts which mirrored Kane and Toews at almost UFA ages and after winning cups. When Covid came which was unfortunate they were done because they had scaled it all forward at max cap advancement projections and that didn't happen. Being shrewd and cautious would have afforded them some flexibility. He messed up

MTL had Bergevin who wasn't good at managing the Cap. He was a good guy and gave them a last shot but everyone knew a rebuild was coming and had squandered too many good years and assets to build a sustained winner.

EDM....terrible asset management. 2017-2022
*27yr old Eberle turned into Spooner in less than 2 yrs. Islanders were loving that in BTB conference finals.
*Not sure why you wouldn't have just kept Lucic to protect the McDrai vs wanting Neal.
*Griffin Reinhart
*Puljujarvi should have moved off that a lot sooner to get something.
*Koskinen Smith Campbell like WTF why so much term for these guys it's not like any of them had sustained success or were young. Koskinen was so bad he hadn't proven shit.I actually didnt mind Smith as he's a fiery competitor but geesh he was 37 and the team needed to find a longer term solution. Not like the top9 had more than 4 capable players? This poorly spent money took away a top6 at minimum and still left poor goaltending

Finally a couple top6 Kane Hyman middle sixers Mcloed Foegele and Bouchard Ekholm and you become a legit contender.
That only took 5yrs and a couple came through the draft? And then this off season?
Piss Poor
Recently heard a podcast about the Moneyball Oakland A's and how being in a small market they were sheltered from the criticisms of Media and a rabid large fanbase. Sheltered enough they could get away with fielding that Moneyball team in the first place and able to experiment. I think the Media attention Canadian teams get and the need from the fanbase to always compete has a negative effect, pushes management to doing Win Now moves that may not be optimal from a long view stand point, a long view standpoint Canadian fanbases don't have the patience for. I think in the case of the Leafs their own hype and expectations lead to a sub-optimal team build and overpaid contracts. Montreal's last gasp for a Cup no one in the market at the time would probably have wanted anything else. But that's my viewpoint from afar, I won't speak for these markets as they are outside my focus.

I can speak for my Oilers though and there's no doubt Chiarelli was a joke of a manager. After his tenure it was reported that he pretty much did his own thing without input from those around him. Acting like a cowboy and using the Oilers organization as his own personal ego trip and fantasy team build. Eberle->Strome->Spooner was trash, although the original Eberle to Strome trade made sense from a needs aspect, who knew Strome would go goal-less for an entire season (an outlier in his career) to reduce his value to that of a cap dump. Lucic was no protection at all, the issue with Lucic is signing him in the first place under an outdated and misguided notion on the role of the enforcer. We wanted the new Semenko for McDavid. An enforcer role we could and did fill for much less dollars with the cheap pick ups of Kassian and Maroon. Lucic to Neal was a Holland move that I agree with though, Lucic was done and bringing a failure/mopey attitude to the Oilers and short term cap relief was needed for that season to get the Oilers back on track. Reinhart another trash Chiarelli move. Puljujaarvi another trash Chiarelli pick, after he was already busting and his agent started meddling, the writing was on the wall, even when he first asked out there was no interest and no value there, Holland did try to move him and it made sense to just see if he could develop. Koskinen another bad Chiarelli move. Smith, not so much, for 2.3M he provided above average Starter level performance, best value contract for a Starter at the time. Another trash move by Chiarelli with an okay move by Holland. Campbell is squarely on Holland's shoulders though, I never wanted to sign him in the first place, it was apparent that was a bad bet from the onset.

Your assessment pretty much breaks down to Chiarelli being a shit-tier manager which no one will disagree with. But then Holland doing an pretty good job to finally create a contender. The Hyman signing. The Ekholm trade. The Kulak trade. Kane signing. Perry signing.

Moving forward I don't think any GM avoids the Offer Sheet situation that was already in place before Bowman took over. But last I checked the loss of Holloway and Broberg, and replacing them with Podkolzin and Emberson hasn't changed our chances. And 2 of 3 of the Free agency signings are looking like good bets. I think it's too early to say the new management group is bad.
 
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I don't know. I would imagine Zito would of been smart enough to keep Holloway and Broberg, signing them to reasonable deals well before getting into this double offer sheet situation. He's always come across as a sharp minded guy who knows what he's doing. I recon Zito's brain would be enough to make up for Edmonton's lack of glamor.

Regardless, Holland horribly wasted those 2 young assets making an old team older and even though the Oilers have had a good season, they'd probably be winning the west at this very moment if they still had both of them on the roster.
The agents will have a say in that as well though regardless of who the GM was. Broberg was looking like a bust for many years, and was in line for a show me deal. Holloway I will argue should have been given more oppurtunity and signed. So likely a smarter GM than Holland gets that done.

I don't think the difference of Holloway vs Podkolzin, and Broberg on his off-side vs. Emberson for 3M cheaper puts us much better than we are in the standings right now. The results of this season were more so the Cup Hangover Kick to the Balls that affected even McDrai, the whole team got off to a shitty start. Of course our top end potential would be better with the addition of Holloway and Broberg. But that's a story we will need to see play out, as it stands the Oilers are once again one of the top teams in the League that do still have chance at winning the division and by all analytical models and oddsmakers still THE top team to win a Cup.
 
Recently heard a podcast about the Moneyball Oakland A's and how being in a small market they were sheltered from the criticisms of Media and a rabid large fanbase. Sheltered enough they could get away with fielding that Moneyball team in the first place and able to experiment. I think the Media attention Canadian teams get and the need from the fanbase to always compete has a negative effect, pushes management to doing Win Now moves that may not be optimal from a long view stand point, a long view standpoint Canadian fanbases don't have the patience for. I think in the case of the Leafs their own hype and expectations lead to a sub-optimal team build and overpaid contracts. Montreal's last gasp for a Cup no one in the market at the time would probably have wanted anything else. But that's my viewpoint from afar, I won't speak for these markets as they are outside my focus.

I can speak for my Oilers though and there's no doubt Chiarelli was a joke of a manager. After his tenure it was reported that he pretty much did his own thing without input from those around him. Acting like a cowboy and using the Oilers organization as his own personal ego trip and fantasy team build. Eberle->Strome->Spooner was trash, although the original Eberle to Strome trade made sense from a needs aspect, who knew Strome would go goal-less for an entire season (an outlier in his career) to reduce his value to that of a cap dump. Lucic was no protection at all, the issue with Lucic is signing him in the first place under an outdated and misguided notion on the role of the enforcer. We wanted the new Semenko for McDavid. An enforcer role we could and did fill for much less dollars with the cheap pick ups of Kassian and Maroon. Lucic to Neal was a Holland move that I agree with though, Lucic was done and bringing a failure/mopey attitude to the Oilers and short term cap relief was needed for that season to get the Oilers back on track. Reinhart another trash Chiarelli move. Puljujaarvi another trash Chiarelli pick, after he was already busting and his agent started meddling, the writing was on the wall, even when he first asked out there was no interest and no value there, Holland did try to move him and it made sense to just see if he could develop. Koskinen another bad Chiarelli move. Smith, not so much, for 2.3M he provided above average Starter level performance, best value contract for a Starter at the time. Another trash move by Chiarelli with an okay move by Holland. Campbell is squarely on Holland's shoulders though, I never wanted to sign him in the first place, it was apparent that was a bad bet from the onset.

Your assessment pretty much breaks down to Chiarelli being a shit-tier manager which no one will disagree with. But then Holland doing an pretty good job to finally create a contender. The Hyman signing. The Ekholm trade. The Kulak trade. Kane signing. Perry signing.

Moving forward I don't think any GM avoids the Offer Sheet situation that was already in place before Bowman took over. But last I checked the loss of Holloway and Broberg, and replacing them with Podkolzin and Emberson hasn't changed our chances. And 2 of 3 of the Free agency signings are looking like good bets. I think it's too early to say the new management group is bad.
Couldn't agree more on Chia...if only we could have gave you the other half of that dynamic duo that rode Gorton's deals and some luck to a Championship in Benning we might have the best odds of coming out of the Pacific not you lol.

Bringing it back to Holloway the off season and your current management.

We'll see how this plays out. As i said i still think you are the favourites. Colorado and yourselves have the most to gain by making shrewd moves as we approach the deadline.

Last off season was a pretty big screw up as i showed by sheer statistical output. Having half as much production being slower older and only gaining 2 million vs what left was a colossal failure in managing.

Good news as you mentioned being middle sixers outside of Holloway and a young probably 4/5 D at this stage you can add the pieces necessary. They are not so high in the order and the gaps are not so significant that it's not doable. If i was a Oiler fan i would just worry about the accumulative effect of more heavy lifting in the meantime and how to keep the best window open for longer given the ages chosen
 
Fair enough but you kind of make my point for me. Look at much effort went into developing Broberg and then when he was finally ready to blossom you lose him for a middling draft pick. Seems like if the Oilers and Broberg communicated better throughout this process it wouldn’t have come to this. This doesn’t even get into Holloway. I don’t see how this whole situation isn’t viewed as devastating if I was an Oiler fan. I’m not even trying to be a dick about it. If the roles were reversed we would be destroying Armstrong.

Many are destroying Holland/Jackson/Bowman over it (pick your favorite enemy), but the reality... trying to be as neutral as possible and respond to your points:
  • Broberg wanted out. You say mismanaged, I say, and most Oiler fans AND opposition fans would say... he simply wasn't ready. You can even look up old trade threads as recent as this time last year and we were offered bags of pucks for "ruined" development.
  • He asked for a trade last year. Holland, rightly, convinced him to be patient and report to the AHL.
  • Patience paid off in the playoffs and he played well.
  • Then Jackson made the mistake of spending all of his money on UFAs, especially Skinner.
  • Once that mistake was made, there was no going back...
  • On not matching Broberg
    • The only way to keep Broberg and be cap compliant was:
    • A: Trade Kane + Ceci - but they tried and there were no takers for an injured guy with baggage. That math worked out to keeping and betting fully on both Broberg + Holloway and having zero cap for the deadline... not a good position when in "win now". Anyway it wasn't an option given no takers for Kane.
    • B: Trade BOTH Ceci and Kulak, leaving TWO gaping holes on D to be replaced by just ONE Broberg. Trading Kulak would have been a bad option, Kulak is a vet known quantity who has been playing like a top-4 for us
    • C: let him go, audition Emberson and spend money at the deadline. Obviously this was the choice made.
  • On not matching Holloway
    • They might have managed to find a way to match Holloway, but we only started the season $950K under the cap... so matching Holloway still puts us a few hundred thousand over with a 22 person roster
    • We'd have had to go with a 21-person roster ALL SEASON - that's just not realistic when you don't have a direct flight from your AHL affiliate
    • And even if we did we would have no cap dollars for a Broberg/Ceci replacement on the 2nd pairing.
    • It would have amounted to us prioritizing our last bit of cap on yet another forward.
    • How can you do that when you know #4 RD is a weak spot and you are win now? You can't.

It really sucks to have lost them both, especially Holloway (was a fan). But the mistake was not made in "not matching"... the mistake was signing Skinner.

Once we made that mistake, we were proverbially in a rock and hard place.
Option 1: was to bet so fully on Broberg that he could lessen the loss of TWO vet defenders - that's unrealistic
Option 2: let them both go and save money to correct your mistake at the deadline.

Option 2 was the more rationale decision given our need to win now.
 
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Probably one of the best offersheet usage ever. What a steal.
Absolutely. The chatter around July is always the top end guys. But those that only require a 3rd or 2nd are probably the better targets. The jump in the cap will push the 2nd round comp to like $5 mill. The 3rd will get into the low to mid $2’s.

Just very well played by the Blues.
 
Edmonton still being a top offensive team/ top defensive team most of the year (with their goaltending). Meanwhile Broberg has gone MIA and Holloway will enjoy dat golf course.
 
Holloway is so good...extremely skilled, extremely fast, plays hard. Did he just hate Edmonton? I see a lot of Oilers fans trying to cope by saying he was low on their depth chart...who would be ahead of him aside from McDavid and Drai?? I don't see any other Oilers forwards I'd take over Holloway.

Holloway coming to STL reminds me a lot of Tage Thompson going to Buffalo and tearing it up. We saw the potential in Thompson when he was here, but he was never given the opportunity to show his true value.
the idea is that Holloway wouldn't have got the same opportunity in Edmonton, and that he has built up his value. But the signs were there that Holloway was a top six player, and that Broberg would be a top 4d. It was that playoff run

And btw imo Broberg will hit that potential. His core skills are very high
 

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