Kings Article: Dustin Brown Must Rise Above LA Kings Captaincy Fiasc

[Omni Owl]

Christ I ****ing hate summer. I still agree with Brown losing the captaincy...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

BTW, for those who bring up that Dustin Brown is still good at drawing penalties...

2011-12: 2.14 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes (5th among players who appeared in 50+ games)

2013-14: 1.68 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes

2014-15: 1.51 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes

2015-16: 1.18 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes (outside the top 50)


He's not that good at drawing penalties anymore. Goes to show you how ineffective he has become at forechecking.

 

[damacles1156]

Plays physical ,draws penalties and plays top pk time He does all this well Plays a good defensive game

Spot on. Brown is still an effective player.

 

[DryIslandBartender]

BTW, for those who bring up that Dustin Brown is still good at drawing penalties...

2011-12: 2.14 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes (5th among players who appeared in 50+ games)

2013-14: 1.68 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes

2014-15: 1.51 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes

2015-16: 1.18 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes (outside the top 50)


He's not that good at drawing penalties anymore. Goes to show you how ineffective he has become at forechecking.

I'd also add that defensively he's been struggling. Statistics back this up with the decline in his plus/minus. The season before last he was a minus 17 and this year he was a minus 5 on a team that was close to winning the Jennings trophy. Every facet of his game has been declining, his hitting has been noticeably decreasing the past couple seasons. Used to be one of the league leaders in hits by a country mile and its declined to where he's barely in the top 15.

Simply put, he's gotten soft and complacent, its affecting his game.

 

[Dog as Man]

...or he was at war with Sutter and we all know that could never affect ones game.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Spot on. Brown is still an effective player.

Except that none of it is true. Brown isn't drawing penalties anymore, and his possession metrics aren't that great. The statistics were just posted.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

BTW, for those who bring up that Dustin Brown is still good at drawing penalties...

2011-12: 2.14 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes (5th among players who appeared in 50+ games)

2013-14: 1.68 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes

2014-15: 1.51 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes

2015-16: 1.18 minor penalties drawn per 60 minutes (outside the top 50)


He's not that good at drawing penalties anymore. Goes to show you how ineffective he has become at forechecking.

I'm curious enough to ask where your getting your numbers from. Also i think his ice time is also going down I would also like to see what the average bottom six players numbers are. Yes hes maybe outside the top 50 but there are at least 6 top 6 players on a team and 30 teams so take them out and where does he rank ? After all im talking him as a bottom 6 player so adding in top 6 players don't count imo

 

[YP44]

I'm curious enough to ask where your getting your numbers from. Also i think his ice time is also going down I would also like to see what the average bottom six players numbers are. Yes hes maybe outside the top 50 but there are at least 6 top 6 players on a team and 30 teams so take them out and where does he rank ? After all im talking him as a bottom 6 player so adding in top 6 players don't count imo

I think the per 60 nullifies that argument nad makes it fair to compare bottom 6 and top 6.

 

[YP44]

...or he was at war with Sutter and we all know that could never affect ones game.

boo firggin hoo

I mean come on who hasn't worked for a dick boss and had to rise above it and just concentrate on getting the job done? I support and defend Brown to a point, and that point usually is when people start saying it's because of sutter.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

Except that none of it is true. Brown isn't drawing penalties anymore, and his possession metrics aren't that great. The statistics were just posted.

see below please and remember im talking about him as a bottom 6 player and thoses stats start out as him as a top 6 player

 

[Dog as Man]

boo firggin hoo

I mean come on who hasn't worked for a dick boss and had to rise above it and just concentrate on getting the job done? I support and defend Brown to a point, and that point usually is when people start saying it's because of sutter.

You're right, you've worked at the highest level of your industry. In one of the Major Cities of the world. You are a lynch-pin in taking the company to the top. You've won worldwide acclaim by proving your team of workers are best. Boo-Hoo. You ever lock your boss out of the office? Man, you got a tough boss.

I don't care who is right or wrong on the Brown/Sutter thing but to decide that is not a factor in Brown's play is, frankly, naive.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Wow dude. Wow.
I'll address this directly. You are drawing attention to yourself. His post was valid. Many defend him when they shouldn't. Many call out players when they shouldn't. To make these kind of posts is very poor taste especially making disciplinary threats.

If you get your feelings hurt then that is only your issue. No rules are being broke with the exception of you masking profanity. Think about that for a second.

To say someone is 'blindly defending' when they're using facts and support is dismissive. Don't be purposely obtuse.

My feelings aren't hurt, I'm just saying it's ******** to say things like that ABOUT me when the quote chain is only one removed from me.

And the 'disciplinary threat' wasn't about me, I said in reference to others. I've got thick enough skin, thanks. It's just becoming a trend across threads and I'm using that example to nip it in the bud. It's the 'subtweet' of forum posts. Just because you say something like "I agree, some posters are idiots" one quote removed from the poster you're referencing doesn't make it not flaming.

I was about to respond to that as well, but thanks for doing so on my behalf.

I was going to say the same, I don't see how anyone was personally attacked in this discussion or the previous one.

This is a discussion forum, is it not? The forum guidelines seem to indicate that "attacking opinions" is valid, and we are doing so constructively. No personal attacks or name calling has taken place as far as I'm concerned.

I don't get how anyone would feel slighted, insulted or offended by pointing out truths about a declining hockey player and his diminishing abilities, especially when there are many, many numbers and trends that reveal this to be true.

And there is no guideline violation being made when I state that there are bloggers out there who blindly defend him while making some haphazard comments about us not knowing "the truth" (whatever the hell that means).

I guess as the old saying goes, the truth does hurt. I wish Brown was a better hockey player so we wouldn't be having this discussion about him, but unfortunately he isn't. And these discussions about Brown have been ongoing for years.

It isn't anything new with those of us who have been critical of his game the past couple of years. And he hasn't done anything to silence his detractors. Sadly, it's all on Dustin Brown and he has to figure out how to become a better player (if that's even possible at this stage in his career).

See above re: "blindly defending." Just because you didn't hit multiquote doesn't mean it doesn't trace back to me.

And the posts I'm referencing, since you seem so dead set on knowing, WERE why the last discussion got closed--several folks were very clearly slamming Gann--not his opinion--and piling on in similar fashion to above. I'm not going to let that happen again, that's all.

I'm under no delusion that Brown is worth the full value of his contract right now, many of his detractors seem to suggest it's a binary--either he's worth it or he's garbage. I'm just pointing out he's actually in the middle by almost every metric--he's a very good third liner with the ability to bounce around the lineup and play special teams. That's more valuable around the league than people give him credit for--he'd be in any (most?) team's top-9, I can't think of one offhand that would bump him down. That's where the root of this disagreement lies, people seem to think he has no game left at all.

Personally, I still think he has more left to give, but I'm not giving others grief that think otherwise, that's just where our opinions will differ and it's all good. But to suggest he's a crap player, sorry, no facts bear that out--this is all just relative to contract. As I said previously the cap is merciless, especially to vet teams, so if you're not getting full value from your contracts, you're gonna take a beating. THAT is a valid criticism of Brown imo.

 

[no name]

To say someone is 'blindly defending' when they're using facts and support is dismissive. Don't be purposely obtuse.

My feelings aren't hurt, I'm just saying it's ******** to say things like that ABOUT me when the quote chain is only one removed from me.

And the 'disciplinary threat' wasn't about me, I said in reference to others. I've got thick enough skin, thanks. It's just becoming a trend across threads and I'm using that example to nip it in the bud. It's the 'subtweet' of forum posts. Just because you say something like "I agree, some posters are idiots" one quote removed from the poster you're referencing doesn't make it not flaming.



See above re: "blindly defending." Just because you didn't hit multiquote doesn't mean it doesn't trace back to me.

And the posts I'm referencing, since you seem so dead set on knowing, WERE why the last discussion got closed--several folks were very clearly slamming Gann--not his opinion--and piling on in similar fashion to above. I'm not going to let that happen again, that's all.

I'm under no delusion that Brown is worth the full value of his contract right now, many of his detractors seem to suggest it's a binary--either he's worth it or he's garbage. I'm just pointing out he's actually in the middle by almost every metric--he's a very good third liner with the ability to bounce around the lineup and play special teams. That's more valuable around the league than people give him credit for--he'd be in any (most?) team's top-9, I can't think of one offhand that would bump him down. That's where the root of this disagreement lies, people seem to think he has no game left at all.

Personally, I still think he has more left to give, but I'm not giving others grief that think otherwise, that's just where our opinions will differ and it's all good. But to suggest he's a crap player, sorry, no facts bear that out--this is all just relative to contract. As I said previously the cap is merciless, especially to vet teams, so if you're not getting full value from your contracts, you're gonna take a beating. THAT is a valid criticism of Brown imo.

Sorry my friend but I think the scenario is clear. Enough so to make me comment when it had nothing to do with me. You are in fact being very sensitive whether you are intending to or not. You are making it about you when it's not. Perhaps his comment reflected you but from an outside observer I can see that you are wrong in how you responded.

In no way shape or form should anyone threaten discipline in order to defend themselves. No rules are broken and I suggest that you not take yourself or an opinion too seriously. You response to be claimed "fact" when things about Brown are just opinion. That speaks volumes of your mind set. I'd wager most would argue it's closer to fact the other way. But stats and constant demotions tell a tale my friend.
Anyways, if we are going to debate a clearly sensational title from Gann then you, me or anyone simply has to expect stark opinion.

 

[YP44]

You're right, you've worked at the highest level of your industry. In one of the Major Cities of the world. You are a lynch-pin in taking the company to the top. You've won worldwide acclaim by proving your team of workers are best. Boo-Hoo. You ever lock your boss out of the office? Man, you got a tough boss.

I don't care who is right or wrong on the Brown/Sutter thing but to decide that is not a factor in Brown's play is, frankly, naive.

If any of us locked our bosses out I am sure we would be reprimanded in some form.

By the same logic does that mean the Brown/Sutter thing is a factor in how good of a coach Sutter is?

At some point in time their relationship started deteriorating, so if it's a factor on Brown's play he needs to look at whenever that point in time was as why. Takes two two.

 

[Trolfoli]

The Brown/Sutter thing doesn't matter, Brown needs to find a way to be productive on this team. What does matter is Brown hasn't found a way to be an effective player in 3 years now. The only thing keeping Brown on the team at this point is how bad he's playing is effecting the teams ability to trade him.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Sorry my friend but I think the scenario is clear. Enough so to make me comment when it had nothing to do with me. You are in fact being very sensitive whether you are intending to or not. You are making it about you when it's not. Perhaps his comment reflected you but from an outside observer I can see that you are wrong in how you responded.

In no way shape or form should anyone threaten discipline in order to defend themselves. No rules are broken and I suggest that you not take yourself or an opinion too seriously. You response to be claimed "fact" when things about Brown are just opinion. That speaks volumes of your mind set. I'd wager most would argue it's closer to fact the other way. But stats and constant demotions tell a tale my friend.
Anyways, if we are going to debate a clearly sensational title from Gann then you, me or anyone simply has to expect stark opinion.

Buddy, I was directly quoted.

And if you think I was threatening discipline there maybe you should re-read what I wrote. Rules ARE being broken--generalized flaming is still flaming. Especially when it's obvious carryover from elsewhere. I suggested people doing that same tactic to others will be disciplined, no way should that be interpreted as "hey I disagree so I'm going to squelch you" and I doubt Ziggy took it that way.

I'm not going to re-post facts about Brown in every post I've done. Hell, I had a long thread about it last year. I'm saying there are reasons to believe he's just fine. Not versus his contract, but versus the perception that he's a junk player.

And that's fine, I expect stark opinion, and I agree the titles to both pieces have been a little sensationalist. What's not okay is slamming posters or writers. You can smash their (or my) opinion all you want--but when you're calling people blind, expect it to be handled. nothing more, nothing less. I was just peeved because it was CLEARLY at me but indirect. Not because I have thin skin, but because if we're going to have a debate, let's have it AT each other, not ABOUT each other and beat around the bush.

 

[BigKing]

You don't need to dig up the stats to know that he no longer draws close to as many penalties as he did previously. It was such a huge part of his game that made him special.

Why is this?

1 - He doesn't hit as often, as hard and doesn't hit the "right" people. Brown used to drive guys crazy and there would be retaliation penalties. Crazy that the league has gone soft where the lightest retaliation is an auto-minor yet his penalties drawn decreases. Direct correlation to hitting less.

2 - He doesn't get as many high-quality minutes as he did previously, i.e. Kopitar putting him in a great scoring position leading to a penalty. This is not as much a factor as #1 or...

3- The fact that refs don't buy his **** for one second anymore. 2012 playoffs put and end to Browns reign of terror on officials buying his dives. We used to say a guy got "Browned" as he skated to the box wondering why he was getting a hooking penalty. His reputation as a diver caught up with him once he became famous around the league with the 2012 run. Just see the embellishment minor he took against Smith in the 2012 WCF when he Smith went full-Hextall on the back of his legs. There is a direct correlation with the drop in his penalty stats and this fact as it dropped from a league-leading level in 2012. Now he just falls down and does not get bailed out with a call.

I'm not getting into the Brown debate here, just saying that drawing penalties was one of the biggest parts of his game and it has disappeared. He had an amazing hits + penalties taken to penalties drawn ratio which made him a very unique player. DL extended a guy who just crushed the 2012 playoffs and then had a very productive 2013. He still drew penalties and still hit.

I don't care as much about the bobbled pucks and falling down: he always did this. The big thing with him is that he doesn't seem to be close to the goalie at all anymore and, most importantly, his hitting game has softened considerably. It's not just the sheer volume of hits but more the magnitude and who is being hit. The last "woah look at Brown really go out of his way" borderline hit that I can remember was in 2014 against Ryan Murray and then also in the Olympics that same month. I think the suspension in 2013 for the Pominville elbow took a little wind out of his sails as he is a marked man now but, regardless, he has to be hitting to be effective and he needs to throw hits that get the other team off its game. He needs to go back to taking huge runs at the best players on the other team.

Lot of hits given over the years though. This is why everyone knew the contract would be bad eventually: just didn't expect it to be bad before the ink dried.

 

[The Tikkanen]

If you're gonna blame Sutter for Brown's dwindling ice time I can't imagine that is gonna improve. The guy ripped the C off his jersey, it's the ultimate insult. The Kings are basically telling Brown we would trade you if we could but nobody wants you including us. And the hope is Vegas takes him and why would they? The harsh reality is there is a very good chance Brown continues to struggle, his ice time continues to go down and he remains a King for a long time simply because there is nothing the Kings can do with him. He's literally the pink elephant in the room every time he walks through the door and that cannot be a comfortable environment for anybody. I don't see how this can help the Kings achieve success.

 

[DryIslandBartender]

You don't need to dig up the stats to know that he no longer draws close to as many penalties as he did previously. It was such a huge part of his game that made him special.

Why is this?

1 - He doesn't hit as often, as hard and doesn't hit the "right" people. Brown used to drive guys crazy and there would be retaliation penalties. Crazy that the league has gone soft where the lightest retaliation is an auto-minor yet his penalties drawn decreases. Direct correlation to hitting less.

2 - He doesn't get as many high-quality minutes as he did previously, i.e. Kopitar putting him in a great scoring position leading to a penalty. This is not as much a factor as #1 or...

3- The fact that refs don't buy his **** for one second anymore. 2012 playoffs put and end to Browns reign of terror on officials buying his dives. We used to say a guy got "Browned" as he skated to the box wondering why he was getting a hooking penalty. His reputation as a diver caught up with him once he became famous around the league with the 2012 run. Just see the embellishment minor he took against Smith in the 2012 WCF when he Smith went full-Hextall on the back of his legs. There is a direct correlation with the drop in his penalty stats and this fact as it dropped from a league-leading level in 2012. Now he just falls down and does not get bailed out with a call.

I'm not getting into the Brown debate here, just saying that drawing penalties was one of the biggest parts of his game and it has disappeared. He had an amazing hits + penalties taken to penalties drawn ratio which made him a very unique player. DL extended a guy who just crushed the 2012 playoffs and then had a very productive 2013. He still drew penalties and still hit.

I don't care as much about the bobbled pucks and falling down: he always did this. The big thing with him is that he doesn't seem to be close to the goalie at all anymore and, most importantly, his hitting game has softened considerably. It's not just the sheer volume of hits but more the magnitude and who is being hit. The last "woah look at Brown really go out of his way" borderline hit that I can remember was in 2014 against Ryan Murray and then also in the Olympics that same month. I think the suspension in 2013 for the Pominville elbow took a little wind out of his sails as he is a marked man now but, regardless, he has to be hitting to be effective and he needs to throw hits that get the other team off its game. He needs to go back to taking huge runs at the best players on the other team.

Lot of hits given over the years though. This is why everyone knew the contract would be bad eventually: just didn't expect it to be bad before the ink dried.

There was an article from Jason Lewis a couple weeks ago that shows that Brown is shooting further away from the net. So you are correct in your analysis there.

Average distance on shots is also roughly the same, however Brown has progressively moved further and further back over the course of the last four years.

2012-13 - 28.73
2013-14 - 29.41
2014-15 - 30.20
2015-16 - 31.55


So that is one thing you can look at. He is taking the same number of shots, but stepping further, and further, and further away. Coupled with a natural decline of shooting percentage, you might start seeing a bigger drop off in overall production.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Jason-Lewis/How-Do-We-Explain-the-Decline-of-Dustin-Brown/179/77521