Speculation: Duration of the rebuild

[Fred Glover]

I said playoffs in 24, contender in 26
what ticks me off most is Vegas and Seattle being in the playoffs and we still are on the outside looking in
spare me the line that both teams got breaks when they came into the league
they were taking, not the top ten players of each franchise in the expansion draft but lesser talent
they have drafted and made shrewd moves to get to this point
and what have the Jackets been doing? Instead of building brick by brick they have been pooping bricks on the ice
its way past time to be aggressive and making moves that will give we fans not only a watchable product on the ice but also a playoff team that will contend in the near future

 

[LoveCBJ]

Our new "style" of play does not bode well for the playoffs. Until that changes, no real contender.

 

[EDM]

Yes, since our style of play is losing, that usually does not work during the playoffs.

 

[majormajor]

Our new "style" of play does not bode well for the playoffs. Until that changes, no real contender.

We look like we'll be the next Devils in a couple years and then get wiped in the playoffs.

This zero grit rebuild is not as smart as people think. Playoff style performers are hard players to acquire.

 

[squashmaple]

You build the skill first and let it acclimate to the league, then you fill the depth with grit.

 

[EspenK]

We look like we'll be the next Devils in a couple years and then get wiped in the playoffs.

This zero grit rebuild is not as smart as people think. Playoff style performers are hard players to acquire.

That was my thought while watching the playoffs. I don't see us having enough grit in the lineup right now or a whole lot in the farm system.. Voronkov should be a help in that regard. Kuraly & Jenner are ok. The D with the exception of Gudrandson lacks grit. As the young skill guys mature and get experience we will have to add some more toughness thru trades or fa's,

 

[majormajor]

That was my thought while watching the playoffs. I don't see us having enough grit in the lineup right now or a whole lot in the farm system.. Voronkov should be a help in that regard. Kuraly & Jenner are ok. The D with the exception of Gudrandson lacks grit. As the young skill guys mature and get experience we will have to add some more toughness thru trades or fa's,

We can changeover the depth guys as needed but you want some bite among your top scorers. Dirty area scorers and demons in the corners. I'd feel more confident in our build if we had a Tkachuk (either) or a Landeskog. That's a core type piece not something you can blithely put off to add later. Anaheim had the right idea taking McTavish.

 

[thebus88]

We look like we'll be the next Devils in a couple years and then get wiped in the playoffs.

This zero grit rebuild is not as smart as people think. Playoff style performers are hard players to acquire.

I’ve wanted to make this point for awhile, and you kinda hit on it.

This idea that “elite offensive skill” is harder to acquire than “grinders” is BOGUS. When I say “grinders”, I just mean they are capable of playing a GRINDING type game. That doesn’t mean they don’t have skill. The success of a team like PIT and their players like Crosby/Malkin, or looking at TB recently, it isn’t because of their offense, it’s because they play a hard game, and when they play the right/responsible TWO WAY style, the offense opens up and becomes more effective. “Grit” is a good term.

The problem is the best TWO WAY PLAYERS get categorized as “offensive” players, and many very good “two way” players like Jenner, are wrongly categorized or compared to many actual easy to acquire, or actual borderline “redundant”, 4th line/“bottom 6” players.

Sure, you don’t NEED to sacrifice defense for offense, BUT, by acquiring the amount of players they did that do that, the CBJ did that.

Look at the locations, cities, the destinations that have teams that are built very strongly on both offense/defense. I hate to tell some of ya’ll, but, the CBJ will never be the “favorite” to win the Stanley Cup, with Bedard or not. Again, it’s crazy how so many weren’t satisfied with the CBJ roster and it’s PLAYOFF RESULTS from a few years ago.

Adding to all that, the idea that people can watch the playoffs year after year, and think that a more open offensive style is the way the CBJ should play, is ridiculous.

 

[Cowumbus]

I’ve wanted to make this point for awhile, and you kinda hit on it.

This idea that “elite offensive skill” is harder to acquire than “grinders” is BOGUS. When I say “grinders”, I just mean they are capable of playing a GRINDING type game. That doesn’t mean they don’t have skill. The success of a team like PIT and their players like Crosby/Malkin, or looking at TB recently, it isn’t because of their offense, it’s because they play a hard game, and when they play the right/responsible TWO WAY style, the offense opens up and becomes more effective. “Grit” is a good term.

The problem is the best TWO WAY PLAYERS get categorized as “offensive” players, and many very good “two way” players like Jenner, are wrongly categorized or compared to many actual easy to acquire, or actual borderline “redundant”, 4th line/“bottom 6” players.

Sure, you don’t NEED to sacrifice defense for offense, BUT, by acquiring the amount of players they did that do that, the CBJ did that.

Look at the locations, cities, the destinations that have teams that are built very strongly on both offense/defense. I hate to tell some of ya’ll, but, the CBJ will never be the “favorite” to win the Stanley Cup, with Bedard or not. Again, it’s crazy how so many weren’t satisfied with the CBJ roster and it’s PLAYOFF RESULTS from a few years ago.

Adding to all that, the idea that people can watch the playoffs year after year, and think that a more open offensive style is the way the CBJ should play, is ridiculous.

You can trade the high value offensive pieces for the gritty players though (like the Nash trade), as well as pick up more of those guys at the deadline.

 

[Byrral]

Again, it’s crazy how so many weren’t satisfied with the CBJ roster and it’s PLAYOFF RESULTS from a few years ago.

Adding to all that, the idea that people can watch the playoffs year after year, and think that a more open offensive style is the way the CBJ should play, is ridiculous.

This is making stuff up. Please point out a post on this board where any poster was not satisfied with the playoffs results of the team they support 24/7/365 because they didn't like the style that the team was playing. So let's try this one more time:

Most CBJ fans don't care what style of hockey the CBJ play or what the final score of the game is "only that they win." Posters on this board wanting to see the team open up offensively and skillfully a little more does not equate to posters not being satisfied with winning playoff hockey games. Everyone knows that the right combination for success in the playoffs is a bit of skill, a little grit and good goaltending.

And to be factual, there is only one poster on this board that ever wanted to see the CBJ lose playoff games and I think you know who that is.

 

[stevo61]

We can changeover the depth guys as needed but you want some bite among your top scorers. Dirty area scorers and demons in the corners. I'd feel more confident in our build if we had a Tkachuk (either) or a Landeskog. That's a core type piece not something you can blithely put off to add later. Anaheim had the right idea taking McTavish.

Who is Tampa's version of that from the Cup runs? Looked like the guys doing the dirty work were bottom 6.

Colorado is without Landeskog and so far the elite high end skill has carried them through an injury riddled season and seemed to have woken up last game.

I know we want elements of old time hockey in the top 6 but of your top end is good enough you can get by with Hartnell's and Lehkonen's instead of Landeskog's and Tkachuk's. If we land 1 of the top 3 I firmly believe we have 1 of those top 6 cores. If Tex is the Tex we remember and Sillinger gets back on track in the couple years we have some skilled grit with potentially Danforth also. Would be nice to add atleast 1 actual bruiser to both the bottom 6 and defense though. Maybe Gudbranson can focus on being more of a bully vs trying to be a defenseman playing above his skill level with a healthy and likely added to group.

Marchenko can maybe be a bit of a wildcard, will be interesting to see if he can build up his forechecking and maybe expand his overall offensive game moving forward. He wont be a bruiser but maybe more grindy.

I also think grit is much easier to aquire vs elite skill. Its not cheap but contenders get it every single trade deadline

 

[Jovavic]

This is making stuff up. Please point out a post on this board where any poster was not satisfied with the playoffs results of the team they support 24/7/365 because they didn't like the style that the team was playing. So let's try this one more time:

Most CBJ fans don't care what style of hockey the CBJ play or what the final score of the game is "only that they win." Posters on this board wanting to see the team open up offensively and skillfully a little more does not equate to posters not being satisfied with winning playoff hockey games. Everyone knows that the right combination for success in the playoffs is a bit of skill, a little grit and good goaltending.

And to be factual, there is only one poster on this board that ever wanted to see the CBJ lose playoff games and I think you know who that is.

Still waiting for the posts from us saying Elvis would be a Vezina winning goalie, he hasn't produced them yet so I wouldn't get your hopes up

 

[majormajor]

Who is Tampa's version of that from the Cup runs? Looked like the guys doing the dirty work were bottom 6.

Colorado is without Landeskog and so far the elite high end skill has carried them through an injury riddled season and seemed to have woken up last game.

I know we want elements of old time hockey in the top 6 but of your top end is good enough you can get by with Hartnell's and Lehkonen's instead of Landeskog's and Tkachuk's. If we land 1 of the top 3 I firmly believe we have 1 of those top 6 cores. If Tex is the Tex we remember and Sillinger gets back on track in the couple years we have some skilled grit with potentially Danforth also. Would be nice to add atleast 1 actual bruiser to both the bottom 6 and defense though. Maybe Gudbranson can focus on being more of a bully vs trying to be a defenseman playing above his skill level with a healthy and likely added to group.

Marchenko can maybe be a bit of a wildcard, will be interesting to see if he can build up his forechecking and maybe expand his overall offensive game moving forward. He wont be a bruiser but maybe more grindy.

I also think grit is much easier to aquire vs elite skill. Its not cheap but contenders get it every single trade deadline

You can get gritty bottom sixers but gritty stars are the hardest and most valuable pieces to get. Like Matthew Tkachuk was worth a lot more than Huberdeau (2x?) even leaving aside their play from this year.

I'm talking about Crosby, the best grinder in the NHL. Brayden Point, O'Reilly, Marian Hossa. Landeskog, and yes the Avs still look off without him. I'm trying to remember the last cup winner that didn't have a player like that.

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

You can get gritty bottom sixers but gritty stars are the hardest and most valuable pieces to get. Like Matthew Tkachuk was worth a lot more than Huberdeau (2x?) even leaving aside their play from this year.

I'm talking about Crosby, the best grinder in the NHL. Brayden Point, O'Reilly, Marian Hossa. Landeskog, and yes the Avs still look off without him. I'm trying to remember the last cup winner that didn't have a player like that.

Yep... give me that leader that has the skill to drive the play, that knows when to dish it, and when to drive the net and bury it. Give me the leader that carries the team and that wills them to win. In the playoffs when they are all winners.. the SC Champs are the team that refuses to lose Yes there is a Landeskog.. but also a McKinnon, a Makar, a Rantanen a Kuemper

 

[LoveCBJ]

I love how Carolina plays and they are missing some key players.

 

[Youngguns80]

Answer to how long are we on a rebuild - eternity, on-going and the ever popular re-tool (which means No Idea).

 

[ViD]

Answer to how long are we on a rebuild - eternity, on-going and the ever popular re-tool (which means No Idea).

The story of a small market team.

 

[5th Line Fanatic]

The story of a small market team.

Small market really doesn't apply in a salary capped NHL. We were up against the cap to start the season, just like the big boys.

 

[Cowumbus]

The story of a small market team.

Pittsburgh, Vegas, Tampa seem to be doing ok.

When they eventually move the team, how many years do we think it takes them to win a cup? 1-2?

 

[ViD]

Pittsburgh, Vegas, Tampa seem to be doing ok.

When they eventually move the team, how many years do we think it takes them to win a cup? 1-2?

Vegas is a world renowned tourist spot, so is Florida, Pittsburgh got blessed with two generational players.

 

[tunnelvision]

Is there a plan? Is it a good plan? Do they have patience to follow the plan correctly?

I think these main questions will be answered this summer, in one way or another. I've waited for long enough, it's about time to make conclusions.

Answers:

- still not 100% sure but probably. The three latest moves (Babcock, Provorov, Severson) are starting to paint a picture of some kind of vision that could be described with general characterizations. I can't draw conclusions yet because Jarmo is expected to continue re-shaping the roster for next year.

- I'm not very confident they will succeed with it, if we define "success" by being a playoff team at least in 3 of the next 4 years AND advancing to the round 2 or further at least once in those playoff appearances. It could be a good plan but about 70% of me thinks it's not.

- if I had to guess, I think they were more patient with the "rebuild" a year or two ago, but after last season they felt they had to react quickly to the defensive issues (by hiring Babcock who has a reputation of building a strict defensive structure for his teams) and to the lack of decent puckmoving skill on the blueline (by acquiring Provorov and Severson, see the tweet below BaconTurtle posted in another thread).



Both players certainly bring something I think Jackets need, but as a fan I keep wondering whether there would have been even better fits available for those D positions.

As of this morning, Provorov hasn't even met the media regarding the trade to Columbus. Does he want to play for CBJ and be a reliable hardworking soldier for the remainder of his contract? How good is his defense in reality?

Severson is known for occasional defensive gaffes in puck battles and puck management. Some say he's solid on PK but not very strong in the corners (possibly same could be said about Provorov). Not to mention an anchor of a contract that gives me anxiety.

Those concerns lead me to think about the following questions: Who's going to defend the crease and stop the cycle of opposition in the next few years, Jiricek and...? Is Babcock's demanding 5-man defensive system going to solve these possible issues? Do they even have enough capable defensive forwards for that kind of system? Or are they relying on the hope that Jackets will transform into a quality puck-possession team that spends most of the time at the other end of rink anyway so they don't worry about stopping other team's possession that much?

I thought about writing something else too but my brain isn't cooperating anymore for some reason so I have to return to the topic later... just expressing my reactions to the latest news and rumors.

 

[koteka]

- if I had to guess, I think they were more patient with the "rebuild" a year or two ago, but after last season they felt they had to react quickly to the defensive issues (by hiring Babcock who has a reputation of building a strict defensive structure for his teams) and to the lack of decent puckmoving skill on the blueline (by acquiring Provorov and Severson).

I don’t believe there is a solid plan. I think generally they want to have a quicker team that controls the puck. But the front office seems to just react to what is in front of them, and doesn’t seem to be building a team in a well thought out way.

Last off-season I think they identified a lack of toughness with the team as the number one issue and they dealt with that by signing Gudbranson and trading for Olivier.

I think this season they decided the number one problem was getting pucks out if the defensive zone, and they have focused on that.

Torts was too tough, bring in Lars. Lars didn’t work, bring in Babcock. So they don’t seem to have a plan for a coaching style.

I have felt for a couple of years that our defense sucked. The one move I have agreed with was drafting Jiricek. As I have said numerous times, I don’t think adding multiple smaller guys is the path to follow. You can have one smaller guy, but you can’t keep adding small guys hoping one is the next Cale Makar.

I was never sold on either Korpi or Elvis. I would have traded them both of them and tried the Carolina approach. Carolina traded their young goalie and added cheap vets in free agency. I really thought Toronto was stupid to blame everything on Anderson, and I would have added him.

I don’t need to go into the whole center issue, but I don’t think we have done a good job developing Sillinger. I look at this roster and I still wonder who are the top two centers on the roster. Is there anyone who wouldn’t trade Chinakhov for Ridley Greig right now? Greig was a guy some of us discussed in the 2020 draft. Chinakhov would have been a brilliant pick for a veteran playoff team that needed to add a cheap scorer, but he looks like just another talented wing on the CBJ. That Chinakhov pick screams to me that Jarmo wanted to show everyone how smart he was rather than following a plan to build a team a certain way.

 

[EspenK]

^^^^^^^

Pretty much agree on all points. I'd also add it seems (at least from the posters here) that relying on a guy who hasn't played C for at least the last 3 years (KJ) to become a top 6 C is suspect. I suppose we could say the same about Carlsson but at least he played C for Sweden and he believes he is a C.

 

[tunnelvision]

Torts was too tough, bring in Lars. Lars didn’t work, bring in Babcock. So they don’t seem to have a plan for a coaching style.

I agree that it seems to be that way but perhaps Larsen never was a long-term option for them. Good for the first developmental years but not beyond that.

I don't think selecting a coach has ever been one of Jarmo's strengths as a GM. Not sure if JD is any better. That said, I thought it was smart to consult players on the hiring process if they admitted to themselves that long-term planning and picking suitable coaches for the plan isn't their strength. Maybe they're learning.

I have felt for a couple of years that our defense sucked. The one move I have agreed with was drafting Jiricek. As I have said numerous times, I don’t think adding multiple smaller guys is the path to follow. You can have one smaller guy, but you can’t keep adding small guys hoping one is the next Cale Makar.

But if you search and scout for a whole year and most of bigger defensemen in a draft class don't seem to have a lot of NHL upside, what should you do? Just draft them regardless? Even though you realize that taking multiple potential new makars instead in a couple of drafts increases your chances of finding one at some point?

But the front office seems to just react to what is in front of them, and doesn’t seem to be building a team in a well thought out way.

This is what annoys me the most about this FO.

Chinakhov would have been a brilliant pick for a veteran playoff team that needed to add a cheap scorer, but he looks like just another talented wing on the CBJ. That Chinakhov pick screams to me that Jarmo wanted to show everyone how smart he was rather than following a plan to build a team a certain way.

Many appear to be surprisingly low on him nowadays. I see untapped potential in there, he can be a lot more than he has been when he gets stronger and a little more comfortable handling the puck. Hopefully Babs' presence won't be detrimental for his confidence.

 

[BB88]

^^^^^^^

Pretty much agree on all points. I'd also add it seems (at least from the posters here) that relying on a guy who hasn't played C for at least the last 3 years (KJ) to become a top 6 C is suspect. I suppose we could say the same about Carlsson but at least he played C for Sweden and he believes he is a C.

I don’t think anyone is going all in for Johnson having to be a top6C.

But they drafted him as a C and we are 2 years away from his draft. If you are ever going to figure out if he has what it takes to be a top6C moving forward it’s this year.
& if he can’t then you go into next offseason addressing that issue.


The biggest question/concern I had for this offseason was whether they were going to make a coaching change or give it a one more try.
It was an absolute must and we’ve seen what coaching can do for an average team, NYI with Isles.

Also getting that 3rd overall pick and a franchise C prospect meant they can start moving away from drafting players to trying to win more games and becoming a legit team.

By year 2 I’d like to see them repeat what Devils did this past season and the Rangers a couple of seasons ago