Dubas' Timeline

[Sidney the Kidney]

Star players takes assets, the Pens don't have many, this is what you get while trying to fill out a roster without spending trade assets.

Hence the position Dubas is taking today. He can't make it happen tomorrow. Doesn't have the assets or cap space. What he can try to do is find a lot of assets quickly and hope that changes things. Hence taking on Hayes, taking on a few one year guys who can maybe be flipped if things are going that way, and so on, and hoping it works out in a couple years.

If Dubas' goal is to build for AFTER Crosby, then taking a more patient approach makes sense. But if Dubas' goal is to still contend while Crosby's playing, then I'm not sure what he's doing makes sense.

Also, not really sure where he's going to acquire these further assets when the guys he's signing aren't exactly going to bring much back in a trade, if he does indeed deal them at the TDL. Adding a bunch of 3rd or 4th round picks (if we're lucky) won't exactly allow him to add any impact players next year and beyond.

 

[JRS91]

I truly believe Crosby can play competitively well into his mid 40's.

Jagr put up almost 70 points at 43 years old. I don't see why Crosby still couldn't be close to a point-per-game player at that point as well. I do think it's over for this core, but I think Crosby will be around a bit longer than everyone else.

I think Malkin is probably done after his contract. He'll be 40 years old and I just don't see him playing elsewhere. Even if he's still a 60+ point player, I just can't see him signing a 1 year deal with anyone else besides somewhere in Russia. The only way I see Crosby and Letang winning another Stanley Cup with the Penguins, is if one or two of their prospects are all-star caliber players, the defense levels out, and Jarry becomes the goalie management thinks he can be, then it's potentially possible.

 

[Peat]

If Dubas' goal is to build for AFTER Crosby, then taking a more patient approach makes sense. But if Dubas' goal is to still contend while Crosby's playing, then I'm not sure what he's doing makes sense.

Also, not really sure where he's going to acquire these further assets when the guys he's signing aren't exactly going to bring much back in a trade, if he does indeed deal them at the TDL. Adding a bunch of 3rd or 4th round picks (if we're lucky) won't exactly allow him to add any impact players next year and beyond.

I don't think it's going to work but I don't see a better plan. Where they currently are, assets and roster strength combined, they can't do it today.

So they have to wait.

A lot of the moves they're making are real small fry things that are unlikely to move the needle - like a 2nd in 2027 - but it's not like they're ignoring big moves. They just don't have any they can make. So it's make small moves and hope that if they keep adding stuff up, they can get somewhere.

A 3rd doesn't do much, but it can be a young reclamation project from somewhere else that hits as a cheap solid contributor that allows them to use cap space for impact players. Or an add on to get a deal over the line. Those aren't big things, but they're still important things and they're things the team doesn't exactly have a bunch of right now.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

If Dubas' goal is to build for AFTER Crosby, then taking a more patient approach makes sense. But if Dubas' goal is to still contend while Crosby's playing, then I'm not sure what he's doing makes sense.

Also, not really sure where he's going to acquire these further assets when the guys he's signing aren't exactly going to bring much back in a trade, if he does indeed deal them at the TDL. Adding a bunch of 3rd or 4th round picks (if we're lucky) won't exactly allow him to add any impact players next year and beyond.

He's not trying to contend while Sid is here. He talked about Sid staying on to be a nurturing force for the next wave, to develop them the right way, mentally. Set the example for professionalism.

 

[chethejet]

Dubas really beleives the surge at the end was a better indication of what the team can do this year. A healthy Rakell, adding Bunting, jettison Ruhwedel and playing a bigger stronger RD in St Ivany, Maybe he is right, Graves second year will be better. Jarry to many was a bad signing but still at 5 million for 4 years, he can be good enough with a better D and much stronger 4th line. I actually didn't get what i hoped at LW but DOC showed me some juice up with Sid. Hayes has issues but he may give the Pens some veteran play with a healthy Acciari to be OK. Pens have cap space and can add a decent winger here.

 

[Fordy]

everyone is going to play better and no one will play bad and we’re going to win a playoff round

 

[pistolpete11]

Star players takes assets, the Pens don't have many, this is what you get while trying to fill out a roster without spending trade assets.

Hence the position Dubas is taking today. He can't make it happen tomorrow. Doesn't have the assets or cap space. What he can try to do is find a lot of assets quickly and hope that changes things. Hence taking on Hayes, taking on a few one year guys who can maybe be flipped if things are going that way, and so on, and hoping it works out in a couple years.

I don't think it's solely on Dubas, but this is why people are (rightfully IMO) pointing out that his strategy is confused.

If you're saying you don't have the assets to build a competitive team now and the target is to give Sid one last run in 2027 or whatever, then why did you trade for Karlsson? Why are you spending a bunch of cap on the mediocre bottom 6 pieces for #depth? Why aren't you being more active selling some of the vets off? Why aren't you taking some chances with younger, higher upside guys?

If you're trying to be competitive now, I disagree with how he's going about it. Save up the cap space so that you can make another move like Karlsson. I'd rather have another Karlsson level guy than Hayes+Eller+Accairi+Lizzotte+Grzy.

He's trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't think it's solely on Dubas, but this is why people are (rightfully IMO) pointing out that his strategy is confused.

If you're saying you don't have the assets to build a competitive team now and the target is to give Sid one last run in 2027 or whatever, then why did you trade for Karlsson? Why are you spending a bunch of cap on the mediocre bottom 6 pieces for #depth? Why aren't you being more active selling some of the vets off? Why aren't you taking some chances with younger, higher upside guys?

If you're trying to be competitive now, I disagree with how he's going about it. Save up the cap space so that you can make another move like Karlsson. I'd rather have another Karlsson level guy than Hayes+Eller+Accairi+Lizzotte+Grzy.

He's trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

This is kind of my issue. It's like Dubas isn't really picking a lane. He's not doing the "sell it off and rebuild" approach otherwise Karlsson and Rust and the like wouldn't still be here, but he's also not doing the "go for it all" approach because our moves so far have sucked.

I'd be fine either way. I just want him to pick a lane and not continue doing this half in, half out approach that leads to just barely missing the playoffs and picking in the 15 range.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I don't think it's solely on Dubas, but this is why people are (rightfully IMO) pointing out that his strategy is confused.

If you're saying you don't have the assets to build a competitive team now and the target is to give Sid one last run in 2027 or whatever, then why did you trade for Karlsson? Why are you spending a bunch of cap on the mediocre bottom 6 pieces for #depth? Why aren't you being more active selling some of the vets off? Why aren't you taking some chances with younger, higher upside guys?

If you're trying to be competitive now, I disagree with how he's going about it. Save up the cap space so that you can make another move like Karlsson. I'd rather have another Karlsson level guy than Hayes+Eller+Accairi+Lizzotte+Grzy.

He's trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

At some point a GM has to pick if they want to go into the rebuilding stage (with owner approval) and I’m guessing that was after the Karlsson trade and before the trade deadline.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is kind of my issue. It's like Dubas isn't really picking a lane. He's not doing the "sell it off and rebuild" approach otherwise Karlsson and Rust and the like wouldn't still be here, but he's also not doing the "go for it all" approach because our moves so far have sucked.

I'd be fine either way. I just want him to pick a lane and not continue doing this half in, half out approach that leads to just barely missing the playoffs and picking in the 15 range.

Same. This is how you get stuck in purgatory.

I would’ve kept Smith and retained on EK65 this summer then waited until the deadline to make any moves.

It is insane to me that we are going to eat another year of EK65 and have him potentially tank his value. Poor management as per usual.

I also don’t believe we couldn’t get less term players for Rakell / Graves. Take awful contracts but get less term so we can flip.

Fabbri + 4th for Rakell was something I would target but Dubas can’t look bad on paper so he’s going to just hold on to half these contracts “because we aren’t giving away players”

 

[chethejet]

Karlssson will be in demand and I don't think he will be a bad player this year. He wasn't as good but that was mostly a crap PP that was not designed for him. It clearly got better with Bunting. Dubas will put a good team on the ice if he can upgrade the 3rd line. Hayes was just a draft grab but he can be OK with his size and skill. He is one year removed form quality play at 32. We will see how it shakes out and the Karlsson trade sending Granlund and Petry out was a very good trade. Karlsson can bring back some quality assets after this year.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't think it's solely on Dubas, but this is why people are (rightfully IMO) pointing out that his strategy is confused.

If you're saying you don't have the assets to build a competitive team now and the target is to give Sid one last run in 2027 or whatever, then why did you trade for Karlsson? Why are you spending a bunch of cap on the mediocre bottom 6 pieces for #depth? Why aren't you being more active selling some of the vets off? Why aren't you taking some chances with younger, higher upside guys?

If you're trying to be competitive now, I disagree with how he's going about it. Save up the cap space so that you can make another move like Karlsson. I'd rather have another Karlsson level guy than Hayes+Eller+Accairi+Lizzotte+Grzy.

He's trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

Karlsson type of moves aren't available often.

The team was in a great position to start last year and the Powerplay (players and coaches) shat the bed.

If the team looks like a surefire playoff team, which is basically last year's squad + a Powerplay, they can add. If they are sitting at #6 or better in the East in February, I expect it.

I don't think the goal is to make one last run in 2027. That would be very illogical with Crosby at age 40 and their prospect pool in the basement of the league.

 

[canadianguy77]

Dubas really beleives the surge at the end was a better indication of what the team can do this year. A healthy Rakell, adding Bunting, jettison Ruhwedel and playing a bigger stronger RD in St Ivany, Maybe he is right, Graves second year will be better. Jarry to many was a bad signing but still at 5 million for 4 years, he can be good enough with a better D and much stronger 4th line. I actually didn't get what i hoped at LW but DOC showed me some juice up with Sid. Hayes has issues but he may give the Pens some veteran play with a healthy Acciari to be OK. Pens have cap space and can add a decent winger here.

That ‘surge’ at the end was mostly due to EK ignoring the coach and just playing his game. He stopped looking for those stupid redirects at the sides of the net.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

That ‘surge’ at the end was mostly due to EK ignoring the coach and just playing his game. He stopped looking for those stupid redirects at the sides of the net.

Bunting was also driving the net and doing his thing, took a sec to gain some traction with Geno and the shit system, but once he started to do his thing, it was a catalyst. The team was bleeding more goals than normal down the stretch, like brutal goaltending but they were out scoring their opponents and genuinely didn't seem like they gave a shit defensively, just that they wanted to score and they most definitely did.

 

[Peat]

I don't think it's solely on Dubas, but this is why people are (rightfully IMO) pointing out that his strategy is confused.

If you're saying you don't have the assets to build a competitive team now and the target is to give Sid one last run in 2027 or whatever, then why did you trade for Karlsson? Why are you spending a bunch of cap on the mediocre bottom 6 pieces for #depth? Why aren't you being more active selling some of the vets off? Why aren't you taking some chances with younger, higher upside guys?

If you're trying to be competitive now, I disagree with how he's going about it. Save up the cap space so that you can make another move like Karlsson. I'd rather have another Karlsson level guy than Hayes+Eller+Accairi+Lizzotte+Grzy.

He's trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

If people only see rip it down to the studs and contend as hard as possible then, yes, it makes no sense.

I don't.

I would also point out that the Karlsson trade was last year and things have changed, making me very confused as to why that's even a question.

And ask what younger higher upside guys are out there that you're wishing this team would sign. I'd point out that Anthony Beauvillier is currently the 2nd highest paid signing under the age of 28 from this period of free agency, which I think speaks volumes to the upside there

And I suspect the main answer as to why they're not selling the vets off is they're not worth a whole bunch if anything. The only guy there who I think would genuinely get a good haul (who can't block it) is Marcus Pettersson and so far I don't think the team has given any indication of their plans with him. My guess is no new contract so they can trade him at the deadline if things go as predicted. Or maybe sooner. They do have a lot of LD now.

I get people not liking the direction, although I personally disagree since they're clearly not contenders right now and I'm okay with them riding out Sid as long as he's happy to be here which leaves this.

But I don't get this idea that there's a bunch of talented young guys the Pens could be signing other than Grzelcyk (Lizotte and Beauviller are actually quite young for UFA) or if Dubas tried harder he could shift a bunch of expensive old guys with rigorous trade protection.

 

[Malkinstheman]

If people only see rip it down to the studs and contend as hard as possible then, yes, it makes no sense.

I don't.

I would also point out that the Karlsson trade was last year and things have changed, making me very confused as to why that's even a question.

And ask what younger higher upside guys are out there that you're wishing this team would sign. I'd point out that Anthony Beauvillier is currently the 2nd highest paid signing under the age of 28 from this period of free agency, which I think speaks volumes to the upside there

And I suspect the main answer as to why they're not selling the vets off is they're not worth a whole bunch if anything. The only guy there who I think would genuinely get a good haul (who can't block it) is Marcus Pettersson and so far I don't think the team has given any indication of their plans with him. My guess is no new contract so they can trade him at the deadline if things go as predicted. Or maybe sooner. They do have a lot of LD now.

I get people not liking the direction, although I personally disagree since they're clearly not contenders right now and I'm okay with them riding out Sid as long as he's happy to be here which leaves this.

But I don't get this idea that there's a bunch of talented young guys the Pens could be signing other than Grzelcyk (Lizotte and Beauviller are actually quite young for UFA) or if Dubas tried harder he could shift a bunch of expensive old guys with rigorous trade protection.

Yeah and I feel like Dubas has been pretty honest this off season about everything thats happened in his tenure. He said himself that last year he made all those moves in the hopes of "jump starting" the team but in hindsight it was a mistake. You obviously cant strip the team down completely while Sid is here so the only choice is to keep trading auxiliary pieces and build a nice bundle of assets. This middle area between tanking and contending is frustrating but the team really doesnt have much choice. There is little to no cap flexibility due to the big contracts and clauses so Dubas can really only trim the edges in the hopes of finding a gem.

Also regarding Pettersson, Yohe said the team is looking to re-sign him this off season along with Sid. Hes been pretty spot on with Pens moves this summer so Id trust it.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don't think Dubas and Sullivan see Beauvillier as some bloke that will be sent down if he doesn't do well. He's someone that Sullivan seems to have liked for a while and wanted him on this team. If Harkins got 40 games under Sullivan, there's no chance Beauvillier touches WBS unless it's a conditioning assignment and Lizotte isn't some Nieto/Acciari add either imo.

I think Dubas' downfall in Pittsburgh will the same as the previous GM's, they sat down and highly respected Sullivan for his past work and listened to what he wanted vs what the team needs and instead of telling him to use certain players, kept getting his players only to see them fail to push the needle in the right direction all the while trading away more assets than they should have recouped.

He's a bit of a muppet, he wanted the President of Hockey Ops role in Toronto and wasn't going to get it as his last add to Shanahan as well as higher salary demands, so he comes to the Penguins to take that role and was supposed to find a GM. Rutherford was supposed to do the same thing and instead of stepping back and allowing Allvin to assume the role and take on a legacy role in Pittsbugh, he just up and quit during the season and took Allvin with him (and later brought on other Ex-Pens staff).

Dubas still doesn't get it. Sure he wanted to fix some things this off season, but one of his top priorities should have been to hire a GM asap as well. I think if they fail to make the playoffs next season or the next two, he'll be fired either next summer or the following one. At that point, a new GM coming in will fire Sullivan and bring his new coach in, Sullivan won't be a quick hire by any team because the longer you keep him the more of a resume he builds of failure. This off season, had he been fired, there would have been a few teams still after him. Even last summer.

What a shit show.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

My other issue with adding a guy like Beauvillier is he's pretty much exactly more of what we don't need more of. A tweener who lacks consistency, has stone hands, but has enough speed to look good on occasion and post 15-ish goals. Heaven forbid we add guys who have an actual scoring touch and don't need a million shots just to score 1 goal.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think it's funny reading "Dubas' goal"....this is a bloke that was supposed to find a GM while he did his Pres of Hockey Ops job.

I would have rather had a Gm that was an Assistant GM from a team that has an incredible track record of helping draft some very good talent in the draft from 1st round to the later rounds that is itching for a GM job.

Or just literally any GM that immediately clashes with Sullivan and fires him will suffice.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I wonder if this seemingly impossible task for Dubas would be easier without a corporate entity above him, and a coach he cannot fire "below" him.

 

[Peat]

Also regarding Pettersson, Yohe said the team is looking to re-sign him this off season along with Sid. Hes been pretty spot on with Pens moves this summer so Id trust it.

That I don't know about. I love what Pettersson has become for us and he is only 28 (and recently 28 at that) but even so, the argument that he's not the right guy for a team that doesn't expect to do much for the next two years is a pretty strong one.

But I'll wait and see on what emerges.

 

[DearDiary]

That ‘surge’ at the end was mostly due to EK ignoring the coach and just playing his game. He stopped looking for those stupid redirects at the sides of the net.

Karlsson still wasn't playing his game. He likes to skate around the offensive zone and look for tips and give forwards time to sneak around defenders. Here the Pens players just stand around regardless of where the Pens D moves, making it easy and predictable for the other team to defend against them. If you watch Karlssons highlights from his Norris season, what stands out the most is everyone on the ice moving, causing the other team to skate out of position.

 

[BusinessGoose]

, what stands out the most is everyone on the ice moving, causing the other team to skate out of position.

Come on man, we're 82 years old.... That sounds like a lot of work

 

[HandshakeLine]

He's not trying to contend while Sid is here. He talked about Sid staying on to be a nurturing force for the next wave, to develop them the right way, mentally. Set the example for professionalism.

Yeah, but then we need to absolutely bottom out if you want to get that new generation. Picking at 11-15 isn't going to do much.

I wonder if this seemingly impossible task for Dubas would be easier without a corporate entity above him, and a coach he cannot fire "below" him.

For sure, but he knew what he was getting himself into.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

As long as Erik Karlsson is a Penguin, we should keep Marcus Pettersson. And beyond that, Pettersson would be the perfect D partner for someone like Harrison Brunicke.

We should re-sign Pettersson.