Heaton
Moderator
Their team has improved where the Wings team got older and retired. The preds were in the finals two years ago and were a contender this year. The wings weren't contenders in any year since 2011.
David Poile traded a 1st round pick for players such as Cody Franson, Ryan Hartman and Paul Gaustad.
This past draft, he only had four picks starting in the 4th round.
GM OF FOREVER LOL
You can't criticize the Red Wings and at the same time praise Nashville for doing the same exact thing.
They had a great regular season this year. Both the previous years they were worse than Wings 2015 though.
I don’t see a trend for Preds.
2011: 5th
2012: 4th
2013: 13th
2014: 10th
2015: 3rd
2016: 7th
2017: 8th
2018: 1st
What is the trend?
Look at 2013-2016, the Preds finished 13th, 10th, 3rd, and 7th in their conference. That’s two nears of non playoffs and then a 1st and 2nd round exit. Can you imagine if that was a 4 season stretch by the Red Wings? Most people on this message board would have been asking the team to trade everyone and start tanking because obviously the team wasn’t good enough to make a legit playoff run.
Even the following year, 2017, when they went to the cup finals and lost it was more flukey than anything, as they barely even made the playoffs, finishing 8th in the conference. At the 2017 trade deadline (prior to their cup run), with the team barely in the playoffs and given their past 4 seasons in entirety, Wings fans would have been hoping the GM traded their roster players at the deadline for draft picks in hopes of tanking for a higher pick. Can you imagine? Lol. Because that’s exactly what most of the message board would have wanted done.
Miss playoffs, miss playoffs, 1st round exit, 2nd round exit, and then in year 5 sitting on the playoff bubble at the trade deadline.... why would the team not trade everyone, start tanking, and just start over? The team was just a bubble team, no upward trend over multiple previous years, they should have started over. Am I right?
Won’t be surprised if Preds fall off the radar soon. Subban trade wouldn’t be out of the blue. Weber could retire and give them recapture penalty. Saaros is definitely no Rinne replacement, not yet anyway. Their window is now, IF Rinne keeps playing at a high level. Otherwise they could be done.
Sure, that's fair. But if you're going to defend Detroit for that, why are you criticizing Nashville? You're doing the exact same thing that you're complaining that I'm doing, just the opposite way.
Not to speak for anyone, but I think he is trying to point out that people tend to have recency bias when assessing GM's.
Since Nashville is a team on the rise, mistakes made by Poile are overlooked by some, and since Detroit has been on decline for years, some people rip into every single thing Holland does.
Either way, I think Poile is a great GM, and does deserve a lot of respect for what he has done with the Preds.
When I assess a GM, I try to evaluate each move without letting bias influence my assessment. When Holland does something dumb (Abby/Helm/Nielsen deals etc.) I will point it out. When Holland makes a good move (Tatar deal, Smith deal, Zadina pick etc.) I will praise him. With so many fans, its either "he sucks!" or "he's great!"
We are in a world where people love to be over the top. I guess people are more likely to feel heard when they are screaming opposed to simply giving a logical point.
But I think most people do what you are doing, including myself. When the Wings were on top and Holland was making great decisions, the majority of people supported him. When all of his talent left or retired his bad mistakes are more magnified, as they should be.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being critical when the bar was set too high. But I DO think there's a problem with being being overly contrarian just because they don't like someone else's point of view and feel the need to over compensate. Not saying that's what you personally are doing.
I still believe Holland and his rebuild hinges on the defense. If Cholo or Hronek are elite in any way way, he'll be vindicated. If not we're in trouble.
Rinne is old. He is a key piece of that team. That and possible lockerroom issues would be the short-term problems I see.Looking at the age of their roster, how long they're locked in, I don't see how they're close to being done. If you're saying now meaning through the next four years or so, yeah, I can see that. now, as in this season, I'm just not seeing it.
It’s because so many are so quick to dismiss everything the Wings did post-09 as garbage/waste of time/mediocre/etc. only to celebrate teams like Nashville for making it past the 2nd round once in their franchise history.
Won’t be surprised if Preds fall off the radar soon. Subban trade wouldn’t be out of the blue. Weber could retire and give them recapture penalty. Saaros is definitely no Rinne replacement, not yet anyway. Their window is now, IF Rinne keeps playing at a high level. Otherwise they could be done.
Darn right.Not to speak for anyone, but I think he is trying to point out that people tend to have recency bias when assessing GM's.
Talented perhaps, but wouldn’t he be by far the smallest #1 goalie in the league? Like we know with Mrazek it’s one thing to kill it at lower levels and in a back-up type role, a different thing entirely to be a legit #1 workhorse.Having watched Saros closely since his junior years being a talent of my hometown team, I'd disagree. Saros is the more talented goalie with the better pedigree at hsi age, size not withstanding.
Saros may or may not become a good NHL goalie. But any failings by Mrazek are due to technique, not size, so I wouldn't use him as a frame of reference.Talented perhaps, but wouldn’t he be by far the smallest #1 goalie in the league? Like we know with Mrazek it’s one thing to kill it at lower levels and in a back-up type role, a different thing entirely to be a legit #1 workhorse.
More pointing out that I wouldn’t bet on a guy smoothly replacing a Vezina winner because he’s been good at lower levels and in limited NHL starts behind a stacked D.Saros may or may not become a good NHL goalie. But any failings by Mrazek are due to technique, not size, so I wouldn't use him as a frame of reference.
More pointing out that I wouldn’t bet on a guy smoothly replacing a Vezina winner because he’s been good at lower levels and in limited NHL starts behind a stacked D.
Darn right.
What have you done for me lately. Being the greatest thing since sliced bread 15 years ago does absolutely nothing to entertain me right now. Even the greatest of minds can either continue to dance for me, or can move along and I'll find somebody else.
This isn't caring for an aging loved one, or cashing in rewards points in a loyalty club. It's, "Do I like watching the results on TV?" It's just a game, and if a given franchise is CURRENTLY* doing a poor job of assembling an entertaining product, then I don't care what they did before, I'm going to want them the hell outta town. Life's too short to "be patient" with something that's relatively inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
*The last 3-5 years is my window of relevance. Anything older falls off the table.
Wait
Why is pronger not listed as a guy drafted 2nd overall?
That is what he was and why he was so damn good.
Agree with 99% of this, and it's a very sound overall approach.Here is why I think this is flawed thinking. What if someone said to you that all they care about is the last 6 months (opposed to 3-5 years) and used that to argue that Holland is a great GM. You would say that is flawed and they could argue back literally the exact same thing saying "all I care about is what have you done lately". (well maybe not you lol, because if I remember correctly, you hated the Zadina pick). Everyone is going form their opinion based on a different period of time. Some may say last 15 years, some may say 10 years, some may say 5, some may say 1.
I understand I don't have a right to tell you what your personal criteria should be, we all have a right to base our opinions on what we want. Really, nobody is right or wrong with something like this, but I just think that when bias comes in to play, fans of any team become angry and sometimes begin to to change how they think in order to cling to a certain narrative. I also think fans cope better when then can blame failure on a single individual, as thinking "if we fire x, things will get better" "if we trade y, things will get better" is easier to handle, and I think for a lot of people Holland is who they chose for that.
If I really had to sum everything up, here is my very quick take. We attempted to re-build on the fly two times, the first was post Yzerman/Fedorov/Shanny etc. and it worked. The second was post Lidstrom, and it bombed. After the second attempt failed, we stuck with it and tried to hang on to the streak (mistake), then once that ended we began the re-build. There is no doubt that we could be farther along if we started earlier, and I wish we did, and along the way Holland made some bad moves (Abby, Helm, Nielsen are the first that come to mind). But with all that, the only thing I care about at this point, is do I think Holland can bring this team back to where it was, and I believe yes, and that is why I don't call for his head. I'm not an apologist, I don't think he has done nothing wrong, I just try to make my assessment based on his entire resume, not just a window.
Last thought; I do think this flawed logic (keeping the streak alive) was an organizational mistake that Holland was apart of which started with the Illitch's, an was not a Holland specific issue. In no world does a GM decide the overall direction of a team. Direction is decided by ownership, and then a GM follow's through on that vision. IMO it's no "coincidence" that both the Tigers and Wings started to re-build at almost the same time which also coincided with Chris Illitch fully taking over.
And? Lot's of GMs make those types of trades at the deadline. Holland has many times.
Sure, that's fair. But if you're going to defend Detroit for that, why are you criticizing Nashville? You're doing the exact same thing that you're complaining that I'm doing, just the opposite way.