Toggle sidebar

Draft and UDFA Thread 2017-18

  • Xenforo Cloud has upgraded us to version 2.3.6. Please report any issues you experience.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Tkachuk and Merkley are the two plays I want right now

Rangers won't be bad enough to grab either unless they fall though so the point is moot
 
Mac n Gs said:
I can't wait to watch Svechnikov this year. Reminds me so much of Cherepanov
Click to expand...

Better skater and better size. Similar skills, otherwise. I think Svechnikov is probably a better prospect, but I think we are talking about the two best Russian forward prospects since Malkin and Ovechkin.
 
Joey Bones said:
Early Top 62 for the 2018 class....

http://www.thedraftanalyst.com/2018-nhl-draft-top-62-rankings-and-watch-list/
Click to expand...

I usually like Steve's work, one of the best out there, but I can't lie, I don't agree with much here.

Svechnikov is great, but whats the argument for him over Dahlin?

Zadina is very good, but way too high, you'd expect more out of a late birthday in the Czech league this season. He's only 2 and a half months younger than Chytil who was much better in the Extraliga, and Zadina wasn't even that good in the U20 league in Czech Republic. I also think Kotkaniemi is too high, I don't see such game breaking skills in his game, although I think he's very underrated, just too high here. I also don't see it with Milos Roman as a first round talent, 2nd to 3rd rounder for me early on. Skarek is way too high. He'd have to be the second coming of Carey Price to be 14th best in a very good draft.

I also think there are some players that Steve is way too low on here. Boqvist, Woo, Khovanov, Farabee, Wise, especially Boqvist. And then there are a bunch of disagreements about players who aren't even listed like Olofsson, Galenyuk, McBain,

But its early and no one really knows that much, I just can't say I agree much of this at this time.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
I usually like Steve's work, one of the best out there, but I can't lie, I don't agree with much here.

Svechnikov is great, but whats the argument for him over Dahlin?

Zadina is very good, but way too high, you'd expect more out of a late birthday in the Czech league this season. He's only 2 and a half months younger than Chytil who was much better in the Extraliga, and Zadina wasn't even that good in the U20 league in Czech Republic. I also think Kotkaniemi is too high, I don't see such game breaking skills in his game, although I think he's very underrated, just too high here. I also don't see it with Milos Roman as a first round talent, 2nd to 3rd rounder for me early on. Skarek is way too high. He'd have to be the second coming of Carey Price to be 14th best in a very good draft.

I also think there are some players that Steve is way too low on here. Boqvist, Woo, Khovanov, Farabee, Wise, especially Boqvist. And then there are a bunch of disagreements about players who aren't even listed like Olofsson, Galenyuk, McBain,

But its early and no one really knows that much, I just can't say I agree much of this at this time.
Click to expand...

1) Dahlin is a media darling. His game, however, has holes. Svechnikov is as good a goal scorer as Laine. Has 40-goal potential. This cannot be disputed. Bank on people souring on Dahlin well before they sour on Svechnikov, who dominated several big-time tournaments -- WJAC, U18s, Hlinka and U17's. Plus he torched the USHL as a 2000. He has the size, skill and shot. Easily a franchise player. What exactly has Dahlin done to create separation for 1st OA? Needs to do more. At this point, Svechnikov has the better resume.

2. Chytil has absolutely nothing to do with Zadina. Nothing. Two different draft classes. Both were 4th line players in the Extraliga. Chytil was not good for Zlin, he just has a mature build and plays a two-way game. Zadina was a top player among his peers at every major tournament. He was a top line player for the Czechs as a Draft-1, then became their best player. Better than Chytil. Better than Necas. Not that it matters.

3. Roman is a fantastic player who drove possession and created against far older players. He'll be a high CHL pick. Saw him a lot this year outside of the IIHF events. He has star potential. Hoping he comes over to the CHL and gets some exposure.

4. Kotkaniemi is a quintissential NHL prospect - size, skill and ridiculously smart. We just saw Mike Rasmussen go 9th overall, and he cant sniff Kotkaniemi's skill set. As long as NHL teams crave big centers with skill, they're getting my respect.

5. Skarek is the best goalie prospect since Carey Price. Easily. Looked like a veteran in his Extraliga games. He is far ahead of the majority of goalies at this stage. I mean, it isnt close. He's deserving of a lottery nod. We saw Samsonov go very high in a great draft. Skarek is well past Samsonov when he was a draft-1.

6. The whole "way too low" thing is comical when you follow it with "its still too early and nobody knows that much." Its a pre-preseason list. The list is more for reference.

It's about perceived NHL potential, not falling in line with a consensus. The truth is, outside of Dahlin and Svechnikov, this draft is wide open and there's no smoking gun to prove Player X needs to ranked here.

Look at the names, watch them play. Revisit and reassess.
 
Steve Kournianos said:
1) Dahlin is a media darling. His game, however, has holes. Svechnikov is as good a goal scorer as Laine. Has 40-goal potential. This cannot be disputed. Bank on people souring on Dahlin well before they sour on Svechnikov, who dominated several big-time tournaments -- WJAC, U18s, Hlinka and U17's. Plus he torched the USHL as a 2000. He has the size, skill and shot. Easily a franchise player. What exactly has Dahlin done to create separation for 1st OA? Needs to do more. At this point, Svechnikov has the better resume.

2. Chytil has absolutely nothing to do with Zadina. Nothing. Two different draft classes. Both were 4th line players in the Extraliga. Chytil was not good for Zlin, he just has a mature build and plays a two-way game. Zadina was a top player among his peers at every major tournament. He was a top line player for the Czechs as a Draft-1, then became their best player. Better than Chytil. Better than Necas. Not that it matters.

3. Roman is a fantastic player who drove possession and created against far older players. He'll be a high CHL pick. Saw him a lot this year outside of the IIHF events. He has star potential. Hoping he comes over to the CHL and gets some exposure.

4. Kotkaniemi is a quintissential NHL prospect - size, skill and ridiculously smart. We just saw Mike Rasmussen go 9th overall, and he cant sniff Kotkaniemi's skill set. As long as NHL teams crave big centers with skill, they're getting my respect.

5. Skarek is the best goalie prospect since Carey Price. Easily. Looked like a veteran in his Extraliga games. He is far ahead of the majority of goalies at this stage. I mean, it isnt close. He's deserving of a lottery nod. We saw Samsonov go very high in a great draft. Skarek is well past Samsonov when he was a draft-1.

6. The whole "way too low" thing is comical when you follow it with "its still too early and nobody knows that much." Its a pre-preseason list. The list is more for reference.

It's about perceived NHL potential, not falling in line with a consensus. The truth is, outside of Dahlin and Svechnikov, this draft is wide open and there's no smoking gun to prove Player X needs to ranked here.

Look at the names, watch them play. Revisit and reassess.
Click to expand...

Right, I'm not saying I'm correct, this is all subjective, but I find myself disagreeing with a lot of what you said with this in particular. I'm sure when you are releasing these lists and asking for feedback, you don't mind disagreements, and are willing to debate your rankings of players in certain places. You shouldn't take my comment as a slight on your work, I agree with much of what you usually have for these lists, I just think you are way off here.

And as for the specifics, I think Svechnikov will be a great scorer in the NHL, but I don't think he possess the type of shot that Laine has. He could be a 40 goal scorer, but more because of how skilled he is, I don't think he's a pure sniper who will lead the NHL in shot attempts in the Ovechkin or Laine mold. I think he'll put up a lot of points, probably more assists than goals, but I consider him both a playmaker and goalscorer. I think of his game as like a winger Malkin or a bigger Kane. And I am not disagreeing on his play. Its great, he'd probably go 1 in a lot of drafts, but in a D vs. Wing debate, I think the D is more valuable, and there really isn't much to nitpick with Dahlin. Svechnikov was great in big tournaments, but so was Dahlin, although he didn't play in as many tournaments as Svechnikov because he's an important piece to Frolunda's mens team, he doesn't play in a junior league where he can constantly leave. So we are talking about two very elite players, but I think the value of an elite winger is way lower than the value of an elite defensemen, so its not that Svechnikov is much worse at his position than Dahlin, although I think Dahlin is a little better at his position, the positional difference should give Dahlin a clear advantage.

About Zadina, I'm not trying to compare him to Chytil, I'm saying that if he's really going to be the main challenger to Svechnikov and Dahlin, you'd expect better play with his club team, even if he is great with Czech Republic. This is a very strong draft, so for a late birthday winger to be 3rd over a lot of potential impact players, you'd really expect this guy to be able to dominate the Czech League this upcoming season. If you remember back to the 2016 draft, people knocked Puljujarvi, and I think rightfully so, for not dominating Liiga in his draft season. He also wasn't a late birthday, and he averaged over .5PPG. We'll see about Roman. I don't see it right now. Late birthday, kind of small, hasn't performed well at any of these big tournaments, besides the Hlinka, and he's been at all these big tournaments. I barely even noticed him during the WJC-20, and I watched all of Slovakia's games. If you are going to say Kotkaniemi is that high due to NHL teams preferring big centers, fine, but I don't think he's a top 5 player in the upcoming draft. Lets see how he produces in Liiga this upcoming season. Barkov with a similar profile was nearly 1PPG in his draft season. Can Kotkaniemi put up .5PPG? I don't see Skarek as that level of player, but we'll see. I think he's the top goalie, but another late birthday, and while he's impressive, especially at the Hlinka and making the WJC-20 team, he wasn't that good at the WJC-18 or WJC-20. I think the last goalie of this level as a prospect was Vasilevskiy who pretty much dominated every tournament as a prospect, and only went 19th in a bad draft.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
Right, I'm not saying I'm correct, this is all subjective, but I find myself disagreeing with a lot of what you said with this in particular. I'm sure when you are releasing these lists and asking for feedback, you don't mind disagreements, and are willing to debate your rankings of players in certain places. You shouldn't take my comment as a slight on your work, I agree with much of what you usually have for these lists, I just think you are way off here.

And as for the specifics, I think Svechnikov will be a great scorer in the NHL, but I don't think he possess the type of shot that Laine has. He could be a 40 goal scorer, but more because of how skilled he is, I don't think he's a pure sniper who will lead the NHL in shot attempts in the Ovechkin or Laine mold. I think he'll put up a lot of points, probably more assists than goals, but I consider him both a playmaker and goalscorer. I think of his game as like a winger Malkin or a bigger Kane. And I am not disagreeing on his play. Its great, he'd probably go 1 in a lot of drafts, but in a D vs. Wing debate, I think the D is more valuable, and there really isn't much to nitpick with Dahlin. Svechnikov was great in big tournaments, but so was Dahlin, although he didn't play in as many tournaments as Svechnikov because he's an important piece to Frolunda's mens team, he doesn't play in a junior league where he can constantly leave. So we are talking about two very elite players, but I think the value of an elite winger is way lower than the value of an elite defensemen, so its not that Svechnikov is much worse at his position than Dahlin, although I think Dahlin is a little better at his position, the positional difference should give Dahlin a clear advantage.

About Zadina, I'm not trying to compare him to Chytil, I'm saying that if he's really going to be the main challenger to Svechnikov and Dahlin, you'd expect better play with his club team, even if he is great with Czech Republic. This is a very strong draft, so for a late birthday winger to be 3rd over a lot of potential impact players, you'd really expect this guy to be able to dominate the Czech League this upcoming season. If you remember back to the 2016 draft, people knocked Puljujarvi, and I think rightfully so, for not dominating Liiga in his draft season. He also wasn't a late birthday, and he averaged over .5PPG. We'll see about Roman. I don't see it right now. Late birthday, kind of small, hasn't performed well at any of these big tournaments, besides the Hlinka, and he's been at all these big tournaments. I barely even noticed him during the WJC-20, and I watched all of Slovakia's games. If you are going to say Kotkaniemi is that high due to NHL teams preferring big centers, fine, but I don't think he's a top 5 player in the upcoming draft. Lets see how he produces in Liiga this upcoming season. Barkov with a similar profile was nearly 1PPG in his draft season. Can Kotkaniemi put up .5PPG? I don't see Skarek as that level of player, but we'll see. I think he's the top goalie, but another late birthday, and while he's impressive, especially at the Hlinka and making the WJC-20 team, he wasn't that good at the WJC-18 or WJC-20. I think the last goalie of this level as a prospect was Vasilevskiy who pretty much dominated every tournament as a prospect, and only went 19th in a bad draft.
Click to expand...

FYI, only two defensemen have gone 1st overall in the last 21 years -- Erik Johnson (ahead of Toews, Kessel, Backstrom) and Ekblad. I think Dahlin needs a near-perfect SHL season to unseat Svechnikov. Tough to do playing against men. Svechnikov's resume is flawless, he's already played in North America and goal scoring is at a massive premium.

Zadina didn't spend the whole season with Pardubice. They were a horrible, horrible team. They were constantly hemmed in their own end, which was good because Zadina got to work on his defensive game. He spent the other half of his season in the ELJ and led them in P/G despite being the 2nd youngest forward on the team. Unless you saw something different when you watched Pardubice in the Extraliga, there was nothing more a 17 year old kid could do on a horrid team while playing against adults. That's why he was so strong at IIHF events. He got to play with talent. I mean, Puljujarvi had Aho as his center with Karpat. Did all of the work. Zadina played on the 4th line with Patrik Poulicek.

And I'm not ranking Roman because of the IIHF events. I watched him play for Trinec's minor league club for most of the season as their youngest player on a team with a lot of age. He was very assertive and created plays with garbage linemates. That means something to me. If you watch him play, the size doesn't stop him. He's an inside player, phenomenal hands and agility. But he plays a 200-foot game and hits, annoys. Bringing up his size isn't a knock on him since he plays physical, hustles in all three zones.

You seem fixated birthdays. I really don't know why since most of the time it's only a matter of months. I find a players DOB as a first-year eligible barely to be significant. Vilardi was a full year younger than Patrick -- the kid with sports hernia -- and still went to 11th, behind 1998's Andersson and Mittelstadt. Patrick, Eichel, Matthews all had late birthdays. Keller was almost a year younger than Tkachuk. Meant nothing at the draft and in the NHL.

Teams don't care about birthdays. They mean nothing when they skates hit the ice. When talking about draft prospects, it's the epitome of splitting hairs. It only matters if scouts think a kid still has a growth spurt left in him.

Vasilievsky didn't play against men. Skarek has. He will spend his entire pre-draft year in the Extraliga. I mean, I ranked him 14th.
 
Last edited:
So it's not entirely impossible that we in two seasons will have a unit with Boo, Foo and Woo on it?
 
SteveK- Do you think teams see it as a plus that a Russian have played junior hockey in NA? Usually it's a clear sign that someone will bust, but there have been some exceptions.

Definitely agree with you that next season is all that will matter when it comes to deciding who will go FOA, it's very far from a done deal. Dahlin will need a great year. Definitely don't think it's a lock Svech is a lock to be the only contender either, many could rise during the year. He is great, but when I compare him to guys like AO, Malkin and the likes he is definitely behind so far.
 
It all depends on the reason why he played in NA. The whole "At least he played on NA-sized rinks" narrative is a non-starter because quite a few teams in the KHL and MHL play on the same rinks.

A Russian player, in my opinion, is better off in the MHL or VHL than in the CHL unless there's a good reason he made the trip to Canada.
 
one plus to a russian kid playing in the chl is eliminating the 'russian factor' bs. a team is less likely to not pick you out of fear that you won't come over if you are already here.

won't make them a better player but could help their draft status
 
The Russian factor of not coming over doesn't exist. The problem is that some teams usually don't scout Russia well, and don't draft good players out of Russia, therefore the Russian factor. Its not for known players, obvious first round picks.

They all come over. NHL teams know that. You gotta be kind of careful about Russian forwards who come to NA for their development outside the NHL, the track record is terrible, although I think Svechnikov is bust-proof.
 
Amazing Kreiderman said:
It all depends on the reason why he played in NA. The whole "At least he played on NA-sized rinks" narrative is a non-starter because quite a few teams in the KHL and MHL play on the same rinks.

A Russian player, in my opinion, is better off in the MHL or VHL than in the CHL unless there's a good reason he made the trip to Canada.
Click to expand...

Is that correct? I've seen a lot of talk about Metallurg Magnitogorsk and Ska St Petersburg playing on NHL sized ice but then when I've seen them play the ice has seemed pretty big to me. When I check up the arenas, they are listed to be 60x30 which is Olympic size, 4 whole meters thinner than NHL ice.
 
Svechnikov selected 1st in import draft by Barrie...no clue if he might come over or not.
 
Ola said:
Is that correct? I've seen a lot of talk about Metallurg Magnitogorsk and Ska St Petersburg playing on NHL sized ice but then when I've seen them play the ice has seemed pretty big to me. When I check up the arenas, they are listed to be 60x30 which is Olympic size, 4 whole meters thinner than NHL ice.
Click to expand...

It was discussed last year on HFB and there were 10-ish teams playing on NA-sized rinks. MMG and SKA were two of them. Slovan is another, as is Medvescak, who left the KHL.
 
To me Dahlin is the number one guy.

I haven't seen a dman that good and that special ever.

It's like watching Gilbert Perrault play defense.

Special special player.

Sure Jones didn't go number 1. But watch him anchor a winning team for the next decade.
 
Amazing Kreiderman said:
It was discussed last year on HFB and there were 10-ish teams playing on NA-sized rinks. MMG and SKA were two of them. Slovan is another, as is Medvescak, who left the KHL.
Click to expand...

Searched some more and saw another report that had the arenas shrink to 28 meters wide, 30 is OG size and 26m is NHL size, so it's right in the middle of the two. That seems like more what I've seen when watching the KHL.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
Better skater and better size. Similar skills, otherwise. I think Svechnikov is probably a better prospect, but I think we are talking about the two best Russian forward prospects since Malkin and Ovechkin.
Click to expand...

All due respect to poor Cherepanov, but Tarasenko was a better prospect than him, and so is Svechnikov. Cherepanov, IMO, was going to end up a good 2nd line forward, maybe 60 pts. Tarasenko had the potential to be one of the league's best scorers, potential that he has lived up to, and Svechnikov has that level of talent.

I too believe Svechnikov is the best player in this draft, and I would take him first. Dahlin is very, very good, but you don't pass on forwards with truly elite offensive ability.
 
I would definitely put Cherepanov in the same bracket as Tarasenko when it comes to potential, he was a game breaking talent.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Top Bottom