Salary Cap: Dr Dubas Cap Thread: He wants the Nurse

[Empoleon8771]

Nurse for Graves.

0 draft picks going to us or them.

EMP. I am not giving a 2nd rounder I don't care if we have 8 of them. Rather use that 2nd rounder to add to a EP40 trade.

But again, they're not doing that deal because they're trading an overpaid NHLer for an overpaid AHLer.

 

[DessertPenguin]

No, Nurse is an NHL player.

Being an NHL player doesn't negate the fact he is viewed as a liability. Made all the more worse with Nurse's NMC that he is supposedly only waiving for five teams while Graves only has a 8 NTC in two weeks.

 

[SEALBound]

Would be hilarious if Dubas managed to send both Jarry & Graves to Edmonton.

And then turns around and sends out Nurse for a solid return or additional picks

Dubas:

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

You need to realize that you are making an argument that you’d rather give up a 2nd than get a 2nd. Forget all the other hypotheticals around Graves and what Nurse is worth in 4 years and blah blah blah.

That’s what you’re saying. It’s utterly nonsensical. No one wants that or prefers it.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I am in the 1-for-1 swap or else no deal camp.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Canucks listening on DeBrusk, Pettersson — The Fourth Period

As the Canucks continue their rebuild, Jake DeBrusk may be next to move. Will Elias Pettersson soon follow? David Pagnotta reports on that and more across the NHL.

www.thefourthperiod.com

"Pittsburgh may be No.1 on Darnell Nurse’s list of five teams he would waive for, and the Penguins and Oilers have been discussing a potential trade. Edmonton GM Stan Bowman is not going to rush into a move, but some believe we’ll see a trade around the NHL Draft."

Thanks. I'm skeptical of the accuracy of all aggregators at this point.

I'm also skeptical of Pagnotta, but at least he has a name and reputation to attempt to uphold.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Edit: I want to add Nurse has a 6 million dollar bonus to be paid July 1st. I can't see Nurse coming till after that bonus.

I’m coming after I get a $6 mil bonus , tbf

 

[Empoleon8771]

You need to realize that you are making an argument that you’d rather give up a 2nd than get a 2nd. Forget all the other hypotheticals around Graves and what Nurse is worth in 4 years and blah blah blah.

That’s what you’re saying. It’s utterly nonsensical. No one wants that or prefers it.

No, I'm arguing what makes sense for the team to do. What I'd rather do? Not trade for Nurse period. It doesn't particularly matter what fans want, because if fans had a choice, the Penguins wouldn't be trading for Nurse either. He doesn't fit with any of their defensemen and the Penguins likely won't be getting compensated much for taking him on.

It what makes the most sense from an organizational and ownership POV. The organization isn't going to add a $37 million commitment with a pretty sketchy contract when they already have an $11 million commitment with a horrid contract. There's just no way they trade for Nurse without including Graves in the deal. Because they wouldn't add Nurse without including Graves, they're adding a bit because Nurse is more valuable than Graves.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

No, I'm arguing what makes sense for the team to do. What I'd rather do? Not trade for Nurse period. It doesn't particularly matter what fans want, because if fans had a choice, the Penguins wouldn't be trading for Nurse either.

It what makes the most sense from an organizational and ownership POV. The organization isn't going to add a $37 million commitment with a pretty sketchy contract when they already have an $11 million commitment with a horrid contract. There's just no way they trade for Nurse without including Graves in the deal.

who told you this? Because it’s simply not true. They’d have to spend that money either way each of the next 3 years as they’re well beneath the cap floor.

 

[Empoleon8771]

who told you this? Because it’s simply not true. They’d have to spend that money either way each of the next 3 years as they’re well beneath the cap floor.

The Penguins own actions. The Penguins have already shown they do not want to be holding onto expensive players just for them to play in the AHL. They dumped both Heinen and Tomasino to clear out of that money on the books, because they didn't want to be paying 2 guys around $2 million each to be in the AHL.

The Penguins having to spend money to hit the floor doesn't mean they want to be paying an AHL defenseman $4.5 million.

 

[Koivunsons]

I wonder if we can do like Nurse + 4th for Graves + Brazeau.

Opens up a forward spot. We get a minute muncher in the 2nd LH hole. And Edmonton can sell it by saying they are getting a 17 goal scorer.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I wonder if we can do like Nurse + 4th for Graves + Brazeau.

Opens up a forward spot. We get a minute muncher in the 2nd LH hole. And Edmonton can sell it by saying they are getting a 17 goal scorer.

I'd be good with this too, if people are worried about trading a 2nd rounder I'd be totally fine with Brazeau instead. I also think that deal might be more appealing for Edmonton, I think the 2nd going to them is only useful as a trade chip. Might as well just get Brazeau back rather than get a 2nd just to trade for someone instead.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Just like last year, there's gonna be tons of rumours of a Rust trade and then game 1 next season, Rust and Rakell are still here

 

[Koivunsons]

I'd be good with this too, if people are worried about trading a 2nd rounder I'd be totally fine with Brazeau instead. I also think that deal might be more appealing for Edmonton, I think the 2nd going to them is only useful as a trade chip. Might as well just get Brazeau back rather than get a 2nd just to trade for someone instead.

Brazeau also fits the type of player they are acquiring for their bottom six.

 

[Peat]

But no one is advocating to do this deal 3 times. It's doing it once when the Penguins will still have 8 left over. Plus you can very easily recover the picks by selling off guys like Girard (who I think has to go if you trade for Nurse) or Brazeau, along with taking on other cap dumps.

By this deal, I mean the Chinakhov deal. Which, while hard to do, is the sort of deal the Penguins should be trying to do again and again.

Which, if they are able to do so, will run through the 2nds stockpile rather quick.

I also think it's not a bad bet whatsoever that you can get back better than Graves and a 2nd for Nurse down the line. Nurse's size plus speed combination will make NHL teams froth at the mouth if he's having a good year. In fact, the only way I think Nurse wouldn't bring back better than that down the line is if he completely goes down the shitter and becomes unplayable. If he's even decent, you're getting actual value for him in 2-3 years with retaining on him. Especially when the cap is going to be like $130 million. Look at how much interest there is rumored to be in Ristolainen. I would be very shocked if Nurse having a decent year couldn't bring you back better than a pure cap dump and a future year's 2nd rounder.

If.

As we've pointed out many times, the Penguins are not well suited to his bounceback.

Many risky dmen bounce back on new teams with reduced responsibility but not all do.

He's skating well, but NHL ageing curves aren't an exact art and he does turn 32 next season.

If all goes well, he probably fetches back more than a 2nd. I don't know how much more though, particularly as going by recent history, I doubt Dubas is looking to flip him asap.

I don't like the gamble for a 2nd.

And while we are colossal miles below the cap and away from trying to win the Cup, moving Graves has next to zero value for this team. It opens up a roster spot but Dubas has always been eager to overfill his rosters anyway, so what difference does it make?

For a guy who's 31 and still has his athleticism, it's really not a bad bet that he can throw together one halfway decent year and have the Penguins cash out on him. You're giving up way less in that deal than what I'd do for Pettersson, and I don't think Pettersson is particularly more likely to be flippable for major value down the line.

You're not doing Pettersson to be flippable, you're doing him because it's a boom-bust gamble on a 1C that could change this franchise's outlook overnight.

Nurse is a possibly plus 2nd pairing dman. That's not worth the same type of gamble.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

But again, they're not doing that deal because they're trading an overpaid NHLer for an overpaid AHLer.

Then I'd rather keep Graves in the AHL with 1.3 or whatever salary relief and take Nurse on with a sweetener.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If.

As we've pointed out many times, the Penguins are not well suited to his bounceback.

Many risky dmen bounce back on new teams with reduced responsibility but not all do.

He's skating well, but NHL ageing curves aren't an exact art and he does turn 32 next season.

If all goes well, he probably fetches back more than a 2nd. I don't know how much more though, particularly as going by recent history, I doubt Dubas is looking to flip him asap.

I don't like the gamble for a 2nd.

And while we are colossal miles below the cap and away from trying to win the Cup, moving Graves has next to zero value for this team. It opens up a roster spot but Dubas has always been eager to overfill his rosters anyway, so what difference does it make?

Yes, it is not a guarantee. But I also don't really think it's a longshot either. Yes, aging curves aren't an exact art, but 32 isn't that old for a NHL defenseman and the Penguins would need him to just be able to survive until like age 34. Most guys who have destructive skating declines in their early 30s have that happen due to injuries, like when Scuderi blew up his ankle and drastically slowed down because of it. Schultz did something similar too I believe. For skaters who are as good as Nurse is at age 31, they tend to last until at least 35 or 36 with that skating before it starts to fall off.

I think Trevor Daley is another good former Penguins guy to look at. His last season with the Penguins was him at age 33, but he had another pretty solid season as a top-4 defenseman with Detroit at age 34. Once he hit 35, that's when the decline really started to kick in.

You're not doing Pettersson to be flippable, you're doing him because it's a boom-bust gamble on a 1C that could change this franchise's outlook overnight.

Nurse is a possibly plus 2nd pairing dman. That's not worth the same type of gamble.

Honestly I'm not sure I agree with this. I think Pettersson is realistically too old to be a franchise changer for this organization. You're realistically hoping he rounds back into form and then you can sell him down the line.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I don't even know if I want to watch any games with this skating abortion in a Pens uni.

If it makes you feel any better, Nurse is a very good skater. It's everything else about his play that's an abortion.

 

[Duffy13]

If it makes you feel any better, Nurse is a very good skater. It's everything else about his play that's an abortion.

I appreciate the effort, but sadly. no, it's of no comfort

 

[Peat]

Yes, it is not a guarantee. But I also don't really think it's a longshot either. Yes, aging curves aren't an exact art, but 32 isn't that old for a NHL defenseman and the Penguins would need him to just be able to survive until like age 34. Most guys who have destructive skating declines in their early 30s have that happen due to injuries, like when Scuderi blew up his ankle and drastically slowed down because of it. Schultz did something similar too I believe. For skaters who are as good as Nurse is at age 31, they tend to last until at least 35 or 36 with that skating before it starts to fall off.

I think Trevor Daley is another good former Penguins guy to look at. His last season with the Penguins was him at age 33, but he had another pretty solid season as a top-4 defenseman with Detroit at age 34. Once he hit 35, that's when the decline really started to kick in.

I don't particularly disagree but between the fact it does sometimes go south, injuries do happen, the fact this team doesn't have a great set up for rehabbing dmen...

Then, your trade return, well that depends on how much you're willing to retain, but lets say it's a 1st and nothing significant.

You take on a probable but far from definite risk that's a bit of a disaster if it goes wrong to get a 1st from a 2nd.

This doesn't make sense to me. Not with how much draft capital this team has been able to get from 1 year, risk free guys.

Honestly I'm not sure I agree with this. I think Pettersson is realistically too old to be a franchise changer for this organization. You're realistically hoping he rounds back into form and then you can sell him down the line.

Getting players with full NMCs in the hope of flipping them is an awful idea because they'll kill the return if they want to and they usually do want to.

Either get him because you think he's a 1C (or at least very worthy 2C) who can maybe allow for one unlikely run with Sid and form a strong nucleus with Kindel after that allows for a good player development environment, or stay the hell away.


eta: An awful lot of chat on getting players has been based on flip value.

But, since this whole thing started on what might make most sense for the org, I'd ask people to look at Dubas' patience in moving veterans with term on and say just how much they think all potential acquisitions are about getting flipped vs Dubas' stated intent of getting a team that can really contend for a cup while Sid is still here.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Just like last year, there's gonna be tons of rumours of a Rust trade and then game 1 next season, Rust and Rakell are still here

Yeah, any Rust or Rakell trade (primarily Rust) is firmly in the "I'll believe it when I actually see it" camp for me at this point. So much "speculation" over the last couple of seasons of "wait until the TDL", "wait until the summer" stuff that never materialized.

Having said that, what about Rust to Edmonton as part of a bigger Nurse/Graves trade? Rust/Graves for Nurse/conditional 2nd (ie. becomes a 1st if Rust produces X amount for them)?

 

[eXile3]

I was hoping after my business trip I would be on to something new. Nope. Still talking about adding an awful player, with an awful contract in Nurse.

And Kesselring, a player we actually should have gone after, is gone.

 

[Andy99]

We should be going after young D like Byram, the boys from Anaheim, Nemec, Schneider etc…not Nurse, regardless if we’re the only damn team he’s willing to waive for…we should only take him if he comes with a first…lol

 

[Jag68Sid87]

There is no way we can move up to draft Bjorck without moving one of Rust or Rakell. My guess is Rust has more value around the league. SO, maybe there is something to these latest rumors.

And I would declare this a successful off-season if we can somehow land the best player in this draft class. Even with Darnell Nurse or whatever horrendous contract Dubas has plans for.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Graves has a No Trade Clause.

Though I suspect he'd waive it so he's not playing in the AHL.