Management Don Sweeney V

[bruinsfan1970]

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[DKH]

David Krejci 33 GMs 0 Goals

How'd that work out with regular minutes

Patience

 

[JAD]

Well, one doesn't expect your 4th line to light up the scoreboard. Ideally, traditionally, you want your 4th line to be able to hem the opponent in their own end wearing them down both physically and mentally throughout the game. If the 4th line can do that they are doing their job, any goals they score are a bonus. And usually those goals are a result of the other team being careless, not the result of creative playmakers sniping.

 

[BruinDust]

Well said and you want them to provide some energy to the game. Anything else is bonus, Moore has been a great addition so far. I would like to see Blidh as a full timer he gets the other team pissed, love that.

What decade are you two operating in?

A 4th line as long as it provides your vaunted "energy" is doing it's job and anything resembling actual production is a bonus? C'mon on.

Moore as long as he continues to produce is a quality 4th line center.

If his production is more along the lines of Nash, Hayes, or Acciari, he's not.

A team can perhaps afford on guy like puck-allergic player like Blidh, not 3, certainly not all on the same line.

I don't have an issue with Moore and Blidh being 2/3rds of a line.

But that 3rd guy better produce at a reasonable rate. And Moore needs to continue to produce at his current rate. Just providing your precious "energy" and zero offense isn't going to cut it in the 2017 version of NHL hockey.

 

[BNHL]

Well said and you want them to provide some energy to the game. Anything else is bonus, Moore has been a great addition so far. I would like to see Blidh as a full timer he gets the other team pissed, love that.

The Bruins 4th line scored 29 goals (12% of the total goals) in the SC season and 17 goals (13%) in a strike shortened 12-13 SC Finals season.

 

[BruinDust]

The Bruins 4th line scored 29 goals (12% of the total goals) in the SC season and 17 goals (13%) in a strike shortened 12-13 SC Finals season.

Without the production of the 4th line during that run in 2013, this team doesn't even sniff the cup finals with the lack of production on the 3rd line between Kelly-Peverly-Jagr/Seguin.

What's sad is how many around here will accept a 4th line that brings energy and nothing else is an acceptable situation.

 

[22Brad Park]

What decade are you two operating in?

A 4th line as long as it provides your vaunted "energy" is doing it's job and anything resembling actual production is a bonus? C'mon on.

Moore as long as he continues to produce is a quality 4th line center.

If his production is more along the lines of Nash, Hayes, or Acciari, he's not.

A team can perhaps afford on guy like puck-allergic player like Blidh, not 3, certainly not all on the same line.

I don't have an issue with Moore and Blidh being 2/3rds of a line.

But that 3rd guy better produce at a reasonable rate. And Moore needs to continue to produce at his current rate. Just providing your precious "energy" and zero offense isn't going to cut it in the 2017 version of NHL hockey.

I agree with them.The 4th line is not no scoring line.Anything is a bonus.Long as they are not on ice for goals against and are hitting and driving teams crazy its good.Lots of 4th line types kill penalties too.4th lines do not get a ton of minutes either so your asking alot to pot 10 each per say Bruins need to worry about Bergeron and finding a top 4 D man not the 4th line.Jesus Boston cannot get two lines scoring and your worried about 4th scoring.

 

[22Brad Park]

Without the production of the 4th line during that run in 2013, this team doesn't even sniff the cup finals with the lack of production on the 3rd line between Kelly-Peverly-Jagr/Seguin.

What's sad is how many around here will accept a 4th line that brings energy and nothing else is an acceptable situation.

I remember Thornton sitting first 2 games vs Canucks and getting inserted and bringing energy not scoring in games 3 to 7.That Boston team was stacked too so 4th line stats were a bit inflated throughout year is my bet .

 

[BruinDust]

I remember Thornton sitting first 2 games vs Canucks and getting inserted and bringing energy not scoring in games 3 to 7.That Boston team was stacked too so 4th line stats were a bit inflated throughout year is my bet .

Yes one player. You can run one energy guy in a 12-man forward group.

And Shawn Thornton in his prime could out-produce what Nash/Hayes/Acciari/etc. are giving this team production wise right now.

Fact is, 2011 and 2013, the 4th line could bring energy AND produce.

No one is saying your 4th line needs to be a bunch of small skilled guys.

But this concept of your 10/11/12 forwards are adequately doing their job by providing only energy/checking and nothing else is flat out bogus here in 2017.

 

[catsmasher]

The problem is we basically have 2 fourth lines. And this just in.. Hayes , blidh , accairi , Shaller are not NHL caliber from their serious lack of production this year. Add to that that czarnik , Heinen are not ready / developing and we're essentially a 1 line team offensively other than a handful of games where krecji / Backes combo has produced. #mediocre_@_best.

Well done getting zero back in return for Loui last year (while missing the playoffs anyway)

Well done trading a 3rd for Rinaldo who now can't even sniff the 4th line.

Asset mismanagement 101!

Thanks Donny!

Thanks Cam for hiring him !

 

[NDiesel]

What decade are you two operating in?

A 4th line as long as it provides your vaunted "energy" is doing it's job and anything resembling actual production is a bonus? C'mon on.

Moore as long as he continues to produce is a quality 4th line center.

If his production is more along the lines of Nash, Hayes, or Acciari, he's not.

A team can perhaps afford on guy like puck-allergic player like Blidh, not 3, certainly not all on the same line.

I don't have an issue with Moore and Blidh being 2/3rds of a line.

But that 3rd guy better produce at a reasonable rate. And Moore needs to continue to produce at his current rate. Just providing your precious "energy" and zero offense isn't going to cut it in the 2017 version of NHL hockey.

I have argued with you in multiple threads that our 4th line players aren't the issue, but you seem persistent on it. We need our top guys to get going....however I'll play along.

Taking 4th lines from the most recent game (except Chicago since Vero only had 2 GP) of the top 5 teams currently vs. the Bruins:

Bruins 4th line goals scored:
79 GP 11 G 6 A 17 PTS (0.215 PTS/G and 0.139 G/Game)

Penguins:
103 GP 15 G 15 A 30 PTS (0.29 PTS/G and 0.145 G/Game)

Columbus:
94 GP 18 G 15 A 33 PTS (0.351 PTS/G and 0.191 G/Game)

Wild:
65 GP 11 G 5 A 16 PTS (0.246 PTS/G and 0.169 G/Game)

Blackhawks:
100 GP 13 G 14 A 27 PTS (0.27 PTS/G and 0.13 G/Game)

Rangers:
70GP 5 G 14 A 19 PTS (0.27 PTS/G and 0.071 G/Game)

Very minimal difference. Essentially besides the Blue Jackets insane 4th line no other 4th line, of the best 5 teams, scores much either. Not sure what you expect from players on the 4th line, but most teams would settle for energy and not expect the type of goal scoring you are expecting.

 

[BruinDust]

I have argued with you in multiple threads that our 4th line players aren't the issue, but you seem persistent on it. We need our top guys to get going....however I'll play along.

Taking 4th lines from the most recent game (except Chicago since Vero only had 2 GP) of the top 5 teams currently vs. the Bruins:

Bruins 4th line goals scored:
79 GP 11 G 6 A 17 PTS (0.215 PTS/G and 0.139 G/Game)

Penguins:
103 GP 15 G 15 A 30 PTS (0.29 PTS/G and 0.145 G/Game)

Columbus:
94 GP 18 G 15 A 33 PTS (0.351 PTS/G and 0.191 G/Game)

Wild:
65 GP 11 G 5 A 16 PTS (0.246 PTS/G and 0.169 G/Game)

Blackhawks:
100 GP 13 G 14 A 27 PTS (0.27 PTS/G and 0.13 G/Game)

Rangers:
70GP 5 G 14 A 19 PTS (0.27 PTS/G and 0.071 G/Game)

Very minimal difference. Essentially besides the Blue Jackets insane 4th line no other 4th line scores much either. Not sure what you expect from players on the 4th line, but most teams would settle for energy and not expect the type of goal scoring you are expecting.

Instead of 4th lines, I'm going to use forwards 10/11/12 based on PPG. Because based on production, this doesn't include Schaller, Moore, or Czarnik, who are among Boston's top 9 forwards in PPG.

So I'll take Nash/Belesky/Hayes/Blidh/Acciari/Kuraly/Heinen.

That's 134 man games, with a PPG of 0.1343. That's 134 man games (almost the equivalent of 4 forwards) with a total of 6 goals.

Do the same exercise with CBJ (Jenner, Sedlak, Calvert, Bjorkstrand, Milano, Hannikan), you get 13 goals in only 104 games (so double the production in less games) and a PPG of 0.2596, almost double Boston's.

The Rangers are even better. Take Fast/Pirri/Buchnevich/Lindberg/Hrivik/Jensen/Nieves/Puempel and you get 15 goals in 131 man games, and a PPG of 0.3053

 

[NDiesel]

Instead of 4th lines, I'm going to use forwards 10/11/12 based on PPG. Because based on production, this doesn't include Schaller, Moore, or Czarnik, who are among Boston's top 9 forwards in PPG.

So I'll take Nash/Belesky/Hayes/Blidh/Acciari/Kuraly/Heinen.

That's 134 man games, with a PPG of 0.1343. That's 134 man games (almost the equivalent of 4 forwards) with a total of 6 goals.

Do the same exercise with CBJ (Jenner, Sedlak, Calvert, Bjorkstrand, Milano, Hannikan), you get 13 goals in only 104 games (so double the production in less games) and a PPG of 0.2596, almost double Boston's.

The Rangers are even better. Take Fast/Pirri/Buchnevich/Lindberg/Hrivik/Jensen/Nieves/Puempel and you get 15 goals in 131 man games, and a PPG of 0.3053

If you're telling me that our depth is weak, I'm not arguing with you because it is. But you were instead saying that 4th lines weren't for energy anymore, that they need to score. So I took those top teams 4th lines and did that exercise to prove that they absolutely aren't for scoring goals, even in 2017 like you claimed.

 

[BNHL]

I have argued with you in multiple threads that our 4th line players aren't the issue, but you seem persistent on it. We need our top guys to get going....however I'll play along.

Taking 4th lines from the most recent game (except Chicago since Vero only had 2 GP) of the top 5 teams currently vs. the Bruins:

Bruins 4th line goals scored:
79 GP 11 G 6 A 17 PTS (0.215 PTS/G and 0.139 G/Game)

Penguins:
103 GP 15 G 15 A 30 PTS (0.29 PTS/G and 0.145 G/Game)

Columbus:
94 GP 18 G 15 A 33 PTS (0.351 PTS/G and 0.191 G/Game)

Wild:
65 GP 11 G 5 A 16 PTS (0.246 PTS/G and 0.169 G/Game)

Blackhawks:
100 GP 13 G 14 A 27 PTS (0.27 PTS/G and 0.13 G/Game)

Rangers:
70GP 5 G 14 A 19 PTS (0.27 PTS/G and 0.071 G/Game)

Very minimal difference. Essentially besides the Blue Jackets insane 4th line no other 4th line, of the best 5 teams, scores much either. Not sure what you expect from players on the 4th line, but most teams would settle for energy and not expect the type of goal scoring you are expecting.

Don't like the way you did this. How can 1 team have a 4th line play 103 games while another played 79? The lines here have been so awful that the 4th line consists of at least 7 players.

 

[DKH]

I have argued with you in multiple threads that our 4th line players aren't the issue, but you seem persistent on it. We need our top guys to get going....however I'll play along.

Taking 4th lines from the most recent game (except Chicago since Vero only had 2 GP) of the top 5 teams currently vs. the Bruins:

Bruins 4th line goals scored:
79 GP 11 G 6 A 17 PTS (0.215 PTS/G and 0.139 G/Game)

Penguins:
103 GP 15 G 15 A 30 PTS (0.29 PTS/G and 0.145 G/Game)

Columbus:
94 GP 18 G 15 A 33 PTS (0.351 PTS/G and 0.191 G/Game)

Wild:
65 GP 11 G 5 A 16 PTS (0.246 PTS/G and 0.169 G/Game)

Blackhawks:
100 GP 13 G 14 A 27 PTS (0.27 PTS/G and 0.13 G/Game)

Rangers:
70GP 5 G 14 A 19 PTS (0.27 PTS/G and 0.071 G/Game)

Very minimal difference. Essentially besides the Blue Jackets insane 4th line no other 4th line, of the best 5 teams, scores much either. Not sure what you expect from players on the 4th line, but most teams would settle for energy and not expect the type of goal scoring you are expecting.

Great post

I went back over some of the greatest teams since 1967 to 2016 and 95% of 4th lines had a good checking center (Billy Carroll - Islanders; Doug Jarvis-Habs; Bill Clement- Flyers). Detroit with Draper & Maltby the gold standard

Moore is exactly what you want - and good defensive skating physical wingers

Blidh- Moore - Acciari/Kuraly works well

 

[NDiesel]

Don't like the way you did this. How can 1 team have a 4th line play 103 games while another played 79? The lines here have been so awful that the 4th line consists of at least 7 players.

It's the best I can do at this moment, some teams have had their 4th line intact most of the season, which is why some have 100gp, while others have switched often which is why they have less played. Injuries have made an impact too on some of the 4th lines, most notably the Hawks.

 

[DKH]

If you're telling me that our depth is weak, I'm not arguing with you because it is. But you were instead saying that 4th lines weren't for energy anymore, that they need to score. So I took those top teams 4th lines and did that exercise to prove that they absolutely aren't for scoring goals, even in 2017 like you claimed.

I don't even think our depth is weak

Our backup goalie has been terrible

Our best forward is playing hurt

Still with Rask in net for 1/3 of the season prorated 116 points

 

[NDiesel]

Great post

I went back over some of the greatest teams since 1967 to 2016 and 95% of 4th lines had a good checking center (Billy Carroll - Islanders; Doug Jarvis-Habs; Bill Clement- Flyers). Detroit with Draper & Maltby the gold standard

Moore is exactly what you want - and good defensive skating physical wingers

Blidh- Moore - Acciari/Kuraly works well

I agree. I feel there are two types of 4th lines you can have in today's NHL. A fast, speedy forechecking line, or a defensive, grinding line. If we look back to the Stanley Cup Finals last year you are right by saying a good checking center is important:

Kuhnhackl-Cullen-Fehr

and

Zubrus-Spaling-Wingels

I fail to see how either of those lines is much different than something like:

Blidh-Moore-Nash
Blidh-Moore-Acciari
Blidh-Moore-Hayes

 

[BruinDust]

If you're telling me that our depth is weak, I'm not arguing with you because it is. But you were instead saying that 4th lines weren't for energy anymore, that they need to score. So I took those top teams 4th lines and did that exercise to prove that they absolutely aren't for scoring goals, even in 2017 like you claimed.

I never said there role was to primarily to score goals.

But taking the 4th lines on one night, one game, mid-season is a poor indicator.

What I'm saying is a 4th line that provides this vaunted "energy" I keep hearing folks here talk about isn't enough to say a 4th line is 2017 NHL caliber, because it's not. A 4th line needs to provide a reasonable level of offensive production. Just energy doesn't cut it.

We can't even say what Boston's 4th line is this season given the large number of combinations we've seen. Two weeks ago Spooner was on what folks here call the 4th line.

You say I'm not talking about the 4th line. OK so now were talking about 3rd liners, which is even worse.

Let me ask you this.

If you had a consistent 4th line group, and those 3 forwards produced 11 total goals over the course of 82 games (246 man games), yet provided this vaunted, unmeasurable energy, would you consider that a good or bad 4th line?

Because I would argue that line is absolute garbage.

And that's where Boston are in terms of forwards 10, 11, and 12.

 

[BruinDust]

Great post

I went back over some of the greatest teams since 1967 to 2016 and 95% of 4th lines had a good checking center (Billy Carroll - Islanders; Doug Jarvis-Habs; Bill Clement- Flyers). Detroit with Draper & Maltby the gold standard

Moore is exactly what you want - and good defensive skating physical wingers

Blidh- Moore - Acciari/Kuraly works well

Acciari or Kuraly, 42 NHL games, ZERO NHL goals. Awesome. Just what this team needs.

 

[BruinDust]

I agree. I feel there are two types of 4th lines you can have in today's NHL. A fast, speedy forechecking line, or a defensive, grinding line. If we look back to the Stanley Cup Finals last year you are right by saying a good checking center is important:

Kuhnhackl-Cullen-Fehr

and

Zubrus-Spaling-Wingels

I fail to see how either of those lines is much different than something like:

Blidh-Moore-Nash
Blidh-Moore-Acciari
Blidh-Moore-Hayes

The difference is those two lines actually have some level of talent.

Nash, Hayes, Acciari, Kuraly don't.

I've never seen folks defend guys with 2, 1, or ZERO goals so much as I have here.

 

[DKH]

I agree. I feel there are two types of 4th lines you can have in today's NHL. A fast, speedy forechecking line, or a defensive, grinding line. If we look back to the Stanley Cup Finals last year you are right by saying a good checking center is important:

Kuhnhackl-Cullen-Fehr

and

Zubrus-Spaling-Wingels

I fail to see how either of those lines is much different than something like:

Blidh-Moore-Nash
Blidh-Moore-Acciari
Blidh-Moore-Hayes

I had to give up pre 2004 when I realized teams had 1 or 2 fighters on their 4th line

Moore is a more talented Campbell

Hayes as a 4th line player is a plus but just makes to much - I can live with him there. His value diminishes as he moves up

Nash is better value and a better player

Blidh-Moore-Nash very good 4th line that can be first PK as well

Claude plays Nash up but he's best suited on 4th line and his salary is more in line

 

[BruinDust]

I had to give up pre 2004 when I realized teams had 1 or 2 fighters on their 4th line

Moore is a more talented Campbell

Hayes as a 4th line player is a plus but just makes to much - I can live with him there. His value diminishes as he moves up

Nash is better value and a better player

Blidh-Moore-Nash very good 4th line that can be first PK as well

Claude plays Nash up but he's best suited on 4th line and his salary is more in line

Nash is best suited in the minors along with Hayes, Acciari and Kuraly.

 

[NDiesel]

I never said there role was to primarily to score goals.

But taking the 4th lines on one night, one game, mid-season is a poor indicator.

What I'm saying is a 4th line that provides this vaunted "energy" I keep hearing folks here talk about isn't enough to say a 4th line is 2017 NHL caliber, because it's not. A 4th line needs to provide a reasonable level of offensive production. Just energy doesn't cut it.

We can't even say what Boston's 4th line is this season given the large number of combinations we've seen. Two weeks ago Spooner was on what folks here call the 4th line.

You say I'm not talking about the 4th line. OK so now were talking about 3rd liners, which is even worse.

Let me ask you this.

If you had a consistent 4th line group, and those 3 forwards produced 11 total goals over the course of 82 games (246 man games), yet provided this vaunted, unmeasurable energy, would you consider that a good or bad 4th line?

Because I would argue that line is absolute garbage.

And that's where Boston are in terms of forwards 10, 11, and 12.

First, I wholeheartedly agree with the poster who says the 4th line is to provide energy and production is gravy (obviously to a point, not in the exaggeration of 11 goals in 82 games you gave).

To answer the bolded: The Bruins 4th line has produced 11 total goals in 37 games, so that point is not really applicable and is an exaggeration. Of course if they produced 11 over 82 games I would be upset.

The point of my post is that our 4th line is not producing much worse than some of the top teams in the league. I still fail to see how a 4th line who provides energy and is scoring slightly worse than other 4th lines is an issue.

We need either to improve our top 9, keep them intact and hope they start doing better, or be patient while our young guys continue to grow.

 

[NDiesel]

The difference is those two lines actually have some level of talent.

Nash, Hayes, Acciari, Kuraly don't.

I've never seen folks defend guys with 2, 1, or ZERO goals so much as I have here.

Why do you always ignore assists?

Well, Blidh is a 4th liner with 10 career games played and 1 goal. Moore has 8 goals. Nash plays a solid defensive game and is more of a passer than goal scorer. Hayes I don't think belongs on this team, but it is what it is and he's better than Acciari and Kuraly right now.