Speculation: Does This Team Have A Mandate To Not Start Fights Or Engage in "Extracurriculars?"

[SeaOfBlue]

Literally point to the last time this team stood up for themselves that didn’t involve Andy or Campbell getting run? Because protecting the goalie should be automatic, and even that was not the case with this team for a long time until this season, see examples One and Two.

And that last sentence I bolded, God the arrogance stemming from it. “Yeah we might not protect ourselves as much as other teams, but it’s because we’re just geniuses who know better.” Yeah and guys like MacKinnon, Rantanen, Ovechkin, Kucherov, Stone, etc. are idiots for standing up for themselves and their team and occasionally getting their hands dirty.

Bold is not what I said nor can even be implied from what I said. In fact I said that we stand up for ourselves, which is the exact opposite of what you think I said.

I presume you are referring to instances like this one where guys like MacKinnon and Rantanen are standing up for their teammates:



Landeskog jumps Garland for no reason in an 8-3 game with 5 minutes left and rips his helmet off which MacKinnon proceeds to throw at his head for no reason. That is "standing up for your teammates" now? It's bush league crap that resulted in a fine and will likely be a suspension the next time.

The last thing the Leafs need (or should want) to do is pull bush league crap. That doesn't win you games and we already get screwed by the refs enough as it is. Neither is taking guys like Landeskog and MacKinnon off the ice for extended periods of time because they got in a fight. If your actions are hurting the team, then it is not sticking up for your teammates. It's being a problem that needs to be fixed, and I am not arrogant for calling out bush league plays or actions that ultimately hurt the team as stupid. They are stupid, and I would hope that most fans would think so too.

Crap happens in games. Every big hit or injustice does not require a guy from your team to go bash someone's face in or some major scrum. It's not going to stop them from continuing to happen. If anything, it will happen even more often because more often than not the perpetrators love when there is retaliation. If the hit is clean then get up and keep going. If you really don't like it, then be a man and stand up for yourself. Why do you need someone else to fight your battles? I bet your teammates would back you up. In fact, other than instances where a guy is hurt or is a goalie, the first guy who does something about something they don't like is the victim themselves... Which is often the case when guys like Kucherov get hit and does not like it.

Otherwise, take a number and deal with it later or let it go and make them pay where it actually hurts: On the scoreboard. Or do what Muzzin did and find another way to get into a guy like Tkachuk's head and totally take them out of the game in a way that actually helps you win.

As for some instances involving guys who are currently on our team:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXLzMpL_uA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_gIIDWOAAM

Not including any goalie or post-injury scrums/fights (or scrums in general because they are rarely tracked) because all teams including our own stand up for those guys, fights which were not in self defense (i.e. we initiated them or were retaliating for a big hit we delivered), or fights including guys who are not on our team anymore (i.e. Kapanen). Of course no fights from when guys like Simmonds played for other teams either. That seriously cuts down the list for pretty much any team, including the ones you just listed.

 

[justashadowof]

I thought the team had hardened up at least on paper. The tactics to use against this team in a playoff series are still transparently obvious. I believe on paper they'll be better equipped at handling those tactics but aren't regular season games where your response to those sorts of tactics is tested?

This has always been how hockey has worked. The inferior opponent attempts to throw the superior opponent off their game in whatever way they can. If it's targeting a star player or a hothead, or if it's resorting to interference and being prepared to leave the fate of the games to your penalty kill. Many a superior team has attempted to take the high road and paid the price of a series upset.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Bold is not what I said nor can even be implied from what I said. In fact I said that we stand up for ourselves, which is the exact opposite of what you think I said.

I presume you are referring to instances like this one where guys like MacKinnon and Rantanen are standing up for their teammates:



Landeskog jumps Garland for no reason in an 8-3 game with 5 minutes left and rips his helmet off which MacKinnon proceeds to throw at his head for no reason. That is "standing up for your teammates" now? It's bush league crap that resulted in a fine and will likely be a suspension the next time.

The last thing the Leafs need (or should want) to do is pull bush league crap. That doesn't win you games and we already get screwed by the refs enough as it is. Neither is taking guys like Landeskog and MacKinnon off the ice for extended periods of time because they got in a fight. If your actions are hurting the team, then it is not sticking up for your teammates. It's being a problem that needs to be fixed, and I am not arrogant for calling out bush league plays or actions that ultimately hurt the team as stupid. They are stupid, and I would hope that most fans would think so too.

Crap happens in games. Every big hit or injustice does not require a guy from your team to go bash someone's face in or some major scrum. It's not going to stop them from continuing to happen. If anything, it will happen even more often because more often than not the perpetrators love when there is retaliation. If the hit is clean then get up and keep going. If you really don't like it, then be a man and stand up for yourself. Why do you need someone else to fight your battles? I bet your teammates would back you up. In fact, other than instances where a guy is hurt or is a goalie, the first guy who does something about something they don't like is the victim themselves... Which is often the case when guys like Kucherov get hit and does not like it.

Otherwise, take a number and deal with it later or let it go and make them pay where it actually hurts: On the scoreboard. Or do what Muzzin did and find another way to get into a guy like Tkachuk's head and totally take them out of the game in a way that actually helps you win.

As for some instances involving guys who are currently on our team:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXLzMpL_uA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_gIIDWOAAM

Not including any goalie or post-injury scrums/fights (or scrums in general because they are rarely tracked) because all teams including our own stand up for those guys, fights which were not in self defense (i.e. we initiated them or were retaliating for a big hit we delivered), or fights including guys who are not on our team anymore (i.e. Kapanen). Of course no fights from when guys like Simmonds played for other teams either. That seriously cuts down the list for pretty much any team, including the ones you just listed.

Considering how long it probably took you to compile this post the examples don't prove what you are trying to insinuate here which is that we somehow do stand up for our boys. It's nice that the 2 examples you provided were both from 2 years ago - got a kick out of that.

The point I'll try and make here is that sometimes 'bush league crap' is absolutely required. Sometimes doing the dirty things are required. Sometimes you have to be a junkyard dog. It doesn't matter than MacKinnon threw his bucket at a guy and that it offended you - one for how silly it was it was also pretty funny, but two it sends a message and shows the players around him that he won't be pushed around - and that message however it gets conveyed, and whether you like it or not, is still important in this game.

The problem with your argument is you keep saying that penalties resulting from retaliatory actions hurt the team, but you give absolutely no consideration to the idea that the opposite - that no retaliation - also does. The counter-argument to push-back always goes from 0 to the most hyperbolic bullshit there is - that we're somehow saying we need knuckle-dragging goons out there punching guys in the face every shift. It's utter bullshit. There is no 'taking numbers' anymore - there's no pushback now and there's no pushback later. And that's the problem.

 

[Bluelines]

Uhhhh... these little boys don't know how to stick up for themselves or for their teammates after all when your mommy fights all your battles all your life, ya kinda expect Helocopter mommy to jump over the boards .... if you look real close in the still frames, after that kneeing, you can see the Leafs looking in the stands for their mommies...

When hockey was a contact sport, when I played that Canuck would have been taken off the ice on a stretcher, then we would have targeted one of their stars....no stones, no courage, no glory.

 

[PhiladelphiaKessel]

When the big money players aren’t sticking up for each other, nobody else will follow suit. I understand that we don’t want Matthews dropping the gloves and messing up his wrist, but there’s literally 0 pushback from any of our top players. Players brought in, like Muzzin, Simmonds and eventually foligno eventually realize this mentality of every man for himself

 

[dubplatepressure]

Uhhhh... these little boys don't know how to stick up for themselves or for their teammates after all when your mommy fights all your battles all your life, ya kinda expect Helocopter mommy to jump over the boards .... if you look real close in the still frames, after that kneeing, you can see the Leafs looking in the stands for their mommies...

When hockey was a contact sport, when I played that Canuck would have been taken off the ice on a stretcher, then we would have targeted one of their stars....no stones, no courage, no glory.

I'm not going nearly as far as saying we should have tried to severely hurt Edler, but AT LEAST show him that we actually give a sh!t about the fact that he just kneed our heart and soul player. I don't think anyone even said anything to him.

 

[shaner8989]

Last night was a f***ing disgrace. This team is a joke. The hardest working player on the team gets his knee taken out and he’s down and can’t move... not one f***ing player did a thing... that’s a complete embarrassment

Shame on every single player. Disgraceful

 

[fahad203]

Last night was a f***ing disgrace. This team is a joke. The hardest working player on the team gets his knee taken out and he’s down and can’t move... not one f***ing player did a thing... that’s a complete embarrassment

Shame on every single player. Disgraceful

Push back in hockey and in life is essentially like everything else. A choice.

This team like anything else's always chooses to take the easy route out. This is to me tells me that despite of our fake regular season success still not a contending team. It's so hard to get behind this team

 

[Bluelines]

I'm not going nearly as far as saying we should have tried to severely hurt Edler, but AT LEAST show him that we actually give a sh!t about the fact that he just kneed our heart and soul player. I don't think anyone even said anything to him.

Which is my point with a little more passion

Anyone who is on a team sport that plays as hard as Hyman does, deserves the respect of his peers, enough respect to stick their nose into a scrum and get a punch in the face. Hell I have a group of friends since childhood, a few of them are mouth pieces, many years ago we are too old for fights now, I've taken more than my fair share of punches because I was sticking up for them or they were getting gang piled and I was jumping into the dog pile, they have saved my ass on more than a few occasions, its what you do for people you respect and love. To have a friend you have to be a friend.

It's the whole foxhole mentality, would you want these men in a foxhole with you when stuff gets bad? I think one of the finesse players has to show some stones and throw down every game until the rest of the team gets it and joins in. Imagine if AM dropped his gloves and threw down a few games in a row, 1) You'd feel pretty guilty that your best player thinks he has to throw down 2) if you have any amount of man in you, you'd step up next game and fight so AM does not have to. Hockey is not just finesse and fancy passes.

Wayne Gretzky talks about how his team finally got it , when they walked past the Islanders dressing room after teh Islanders beat the Oilers, expecting a party and it was stone cold silent and every Islander had some sort of wrap, sling, ice, he said at that point the Oilers got what they had to do the following year to be a champion.

Being a champion in any sport in any league is typically not easy, the Leafs want it easy.

 

[Bust]

Because the smartest thing for our best player whose value is on the ice is to sit in the box for 5 minutes.

The team played hard all night and has played hard for much of the season. It was a full 60 minute effort today. Just could not buy a goal, and even had a goal disallowed that would have made it a win in regulation.

It's been night and day vs. recent years, especially under Babcock. Just because they don't run around punching people out or whatever BS crap our fans think is "sticking up for their teammates" does not mean they don't have heart. It just means they know that is not how you are going to win a game. They also probably realize that we don't have the best reputation with the refs, especially when it comes to physical skirmishes. We rarely ever get the benefit of the doubt, and the only thing worse than seeing one of your guys taking a big hit is to also take a stupid penalty right after it. That has already been a noticieable factor in costing us two 1st round playoff series as it is... We don't need it costing us any more.

I worded my post oddly. My apologies.

I didn’t mean Matthews should be the one engaging in fights, my point was I think a guy like Matthews would respond well to his teammates stepping up in that regard. Especially the Reilly/Spezza types.

Matthews is a guy who excels in those high energy situations, and is the type to go through a wall if his teammates are doing the same.

 

[Bluelines]

The last thing the Leafs need (or should want) to do is pull bush league crap. That doesn't win you games and we already get screwed by the refs enough as it is. Neither is taking guys like Landeskog and MacKinnon off the ice for extended periods of time because they got in a fight. If your actions are hurting the team, then it is not sticking up for your teammates. It's being a problem that needs to be fixed, and I am not arrogant for calling out bush league plays or actions that ultimately hurt the team as stupid. They are stupid, and I would hope that most fans would think so too.

It's exactly what needs to happen, you got a superstar fighting harder than you are, that tends to wake you the f up.

 

[DaWatcher]

There is no mandate. The team is simply taking on the identity of its GM and the people of this city - soft, arrogant, entitled. I have played sports at a high level on a closely knit team and when another team took liberties winning the game became a secondary objective. As long as this team continues to wilt in the face of physical pressure the refs will continually punish us for whining and complaining (as they have been for the last four years).

 

[Primary Assist]

I hate it. The next time we play the Canucks either Edler drops the mitts with one of our heavies, or Simmonds flosses Edler's teeth with his stick.

 

[Griffin76]

My question is what is/was the proper response to what happened last night? Does someone go after Edler right after the knee, take a minor/double minor/major and completely negate the PP just to prove they aren't soft? Do they wait and take it out on Edler at the next opportunity and possibly put themselves down a man for an extended period of time? Do they retaliate and go after Horvat or Boeser only to have Vancouver come back and take out Matthews or Marner?

 

[frog]

My question is what is/was the proper response to what happened last night? Does someone go after Edler right after the knee, take a minor/double minor/major and completely negate the PP just to prove they aren't soft? Do they wait and take it out on Edler at the next opportunity and possibly put themselves down a man for an extended period of time? Do they retaliate and go after Horvat or Boeser only to have Vancouver come back and take out Matthews or Marner?

Being afraid of a 2 minute penalty is a terrible mindset for a team to have. There are bad penalties and good penalties. Hyman is probably done for the year, there should have been immediate reaction without hesitation. Having a closer team is more valuable than a 2 minute penalty

 

[dubplatepressure]

My question is what is/was the proper response to what happened last night? Does someone go after Edler right after the knee, take a minor/double minor/major and completely negate the PP just to prove they aren't soft? Do they wait and take it out on Edler at the next opportunity and possibly put themselves down a man for an extended period of time? Do they retaliate and go after Horvat or Boeser only to have Vancouver come back and take out Matthews or Marner?

The time to react in that event is immediately afterwards while Edler is on the ice and before or as the penalty is being called. Deal with it in the moment and send the right message - that the team is willing to push back in more ways than one. It's not simply just about proving your not soft. It's proving your not soft, timid, scared, easily physically dominated, unwilling to go the extra mile. To not do so shows that your opponent is willing to go further - to lay more down on the line - to risk more - to win, then you are. On a micro level, the sacrificing of scoring chances do not matter one bit in a game where we're grossly outchancing them 5v5 anyway, we are already in first place, and our PP is currently perhaps the most wretched powerplay any of us have seen in the last 20 years. Sometimes the message is worth more than a powerplay, a scoring chance, even a goal.

 

[93WrapAround]

When the big money players aren’t sticking up for each other, nobody else will follow suit. I understand that we don’t want Matthews dropping the gloves and messing up his wrist, but there’s literally 0 pushback from any of our top players. Players brought in, like Muzzin, Simmonds and eventually foligno eventually realize this mentality of every man for himself

This is quite ridiculous. Imagine the enforcers playing with Gretzky stopped protecting him because he never tried retaliating or sticking up for anyone. This is their job - AM/MM/WN/JTs job is to put the puck in the net, not throw punches or hits to further risk injury and thus our ability to win..

 

[Wafflewhipper]

When it’s a close or tied game you take down the # and deal with it later. You don’t squander a PP opportunity

Because the PP is so vital & Lethal eh
He should have left the ice spittin chicklets. This guy has a kneeing history

 

[wingman75]

It is not in their nature to act this way (for almost all of them). Anything in the form of anger, especially physical anger is forced, an after thought. They are passive people. It's why when the tough gets going in certain pressure moments the team almost always falters. Unfortunate the grit guys we brought in haven't affected the team in this way, its almost as if the core has in fact changed them... lol

 

[Burnie97]

NHL should give Edler at least one game because they'll want to avoid a possible shit show tomorrow.

NHL DOPS is also a joke so who knows.

If he plays the next game somebody better drop him. Just let them fight. No stupid shit just Simmonds or someone say let's go right off the face off... then move on. Beat them on the scoreboard after that.

 

[studebaker17]

They play like a bunch of bitches , with few exceptions . They rarely stand up for themselves let alone a team mate . Why, i don't know , it's obviously a cultural issue because a large portion of the team knows how to play the right way and aren't doing it.

 

[Mad hatter]

For a room they say is as tight as the leafs is I don’t understand why cheap shots are so tolerated. The staged fights I don’t miss but sticking up for one another I sure do. I don’t think too many teams are afraid to take a penalty against us right now so some toughness might needed instead.

 

[Thissiteisgarbage]

"The good old days" of hockey - every team had one or two softies (usually the smaller guys) but the vast majority of players would be willing to stand up for themselves or team mates. Things started to change in the 90's that way and that begat the "enforcer" era of largely predetermined tilts.
With the enforcer now gone, there ain't much left.
I do strongly agree with the one poster who noted that this team is a perfect representation of the GM.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

This Leafs team, despite the newfound "toughness, grit, and character" approach still seems as soft and unengaging as ever, and I'm starting to believe it's an intentional message from the coaching staff and management, and not solely on the players.

Take the games against Calgary a little bit ago. Holl absolutely crushed Gaudrea and the Flames did not forget it. Tkachuk fought Holl to send a message, and Lucic and Tanev went after Matthews in response. Hyman got injured on a dirty play and what did the Leafs do? Nothing. This isn't the first time Edler has tried to injure a Leaf as in a game earlier this season he tried to take out Spezza, but of course no one did anything about it. Jordie Benn on the Canucks however was quick to challenge Simmonds after the latter layed out Quinn Hughes, young star defenseman on the Canucks.

The last time the Leafs engaged in any sort of brouhaha as a response to a perceived slight that you see teams across the league engage in was back in 2016 against these same Canucks when the game was getting out of hand, Martin went after a rookie, Miller after Martin, and Andersen even joined in. Earlier that game Burrows went after Rielly, a tough guy went after Komarov, and Martin did what he did in response. Despite Martin remaining on the team for another two years (along with agitators in Kadri and Komarov, and another tough guy in Polak) nothing of the sort ever really happened again. There've been a couple of other multi-player fights and scrums but never in response to one of our players getting laid out or hurt. Not when Andersson shoved Matthews into the boards and aggravated his wrist, not when Robertson was hurt in his first game of the season, and certainly not tonight when Hyman was kneed. You look up Leafs brawls on YouTube and there hasn't really been one since 2017.

Now I'm not asking this team to go out and have a line brawl every night, far from it. I don't want my thread to come off like that. My main point is that this team, despite added emphasis on protecting the goalies, does not truly stand up for themselves when they've been wronged or one of their own teammates has been targeted or hurt. But why? It's not like some of the guys we've brought in haven't played that way before or done that themselves. Muzzin has fought in response to a teammate getting hit. So has Simmonds. And Bogosian. Thornton has done it not once, but twice, though it was in response to he himself getting done dirty but he's participated in scrums to defend his teammates.

My question is why, now that all of these guys are here on the Toronto Maple Leafs, is this willingness to stand up for their teammates and themselves all of the sudden gone? Why does no one do ANYTHING when Matthews gets crosschecked hard in the back? Or Tavares gets run? It's not like these guys haven't done it before, and the incoming Foligno has certainly stood up for his teammates, is he going to be looking the other way now himself when he gets here and one of his new teammates is laid out?

It's infuriating to watch our players time and time again have liberties taken on them and our team just skate away. What is our revenge supposed to be the powerplay? Fat lot of good that's done us in the past month. I'm not saying if someone had done something to Edler earlier in the season after he tried to do Spezza it would've been deterred from injuring Hyman, but it might've.

Why is this franchise going out of their way to add toughness and grit if they aren't going to allow the players they acquire to actually play that way? Why don't they want them to play that way? Are they afraid of retribution? Yeah our pacifist approach has really protected our guys. Do they just not want the media drama? Are they afraid the league would come down harder on us than other teams for any hypothetical brawls or revenge hits?

It's quite simple really. Shanny thought a player like Andrea Johnsson was tough because he took abuse. Yes..the guy with 3 goals this year and 8 points on NJ is what Shanny thinks is tough. He thinks Tavares letting guys give him face wash after facewash is tough. Why does Shanny believe that? I think he is still enamored by the Russian 5 from his old Wings days and the way they played. He would rather his players play like them than play like him.

This skill, skill and more skill is mostly Shanny IMO. He has blinders on and thinks we are tough if we can take a hit...not give one out. Until we get bounced in the 1st round again...it will be the modus operandi of this team. Duby is coming around a bit on the toughness part by getting Foligno...but I am worried it's too little and too late.

 

[theTTC]

I comment on this phenomenon at the beginning of every recent season. Players who made their mark as tough guys and fighters with other teams quickly drop that m.o. a few games in. Young players, especially Russians for some reason, make the team by displaying spunk and finishing their checks hard; a few games in, they then adopt the curl away move touching nobody. You've all witnessed it.

It's like anybody hard gets absorbed into the soft flabby Leaf body.

I've been living long enough to know that the character of workplaces and sports teams are a reflection of the leadership. We could win it all this year, if this gutlessness is ordered to turn around quickly.