Speculation: Does This Team Have A Mandate To Not Start Fights Or Engage in "Extracurriculars?"

[Jimmy Firecracker]

This Leafs team, despite the newfound "toughness, grit, and character" approach still seems as soft and unengaging as ever, and I'm starting to believe it's an intentional message from the coaching staff and management, and not solely on the players.

Take the games against Calgary a little bit ago. Holl absolutely crushed Gaudrea and the Flames did not forget it. Tkachuk fought Holl to send a message, and Lucic and Tanev went after Matthews in response. Hyman got injured on a dirty play and what did the Leafs do? Nothing. This isn't the first time Edler has tried to injure a Leaf as in a game earlier this season he tried to take out Spezza, but of course no one did anything about it. Jordie Benn on the Canucks however was quick to challenge Simmonds after the latter layed out Quinn Hughes, young star defenseman on the Canucks.

The last time the Leafs engaged in any sort of brouhaha as a response to a perceived slight that you see teams across the league engage in was back in 2016 against these same Canucks when the game was getting out of hand, Martin went after a rookie, Miller after Martin, and Andersen even joined in. Earlier that game Burrows went after Rielly, a tough guy went after Komarov, and Martin did what he did in response. Despite Martin remaining on the team for another two years (along with agitators in Kadri and Komarov, and another tough guy in Polak) nothing of the sort ever really happened again. There've been a couple of other multi-player fights and scrums but never in response to one of our players getting laid out or hurt. Not when Andersson shoved Matthews into the boards and aggravated his wrist, not when Robertson was hurt in his first game of the season, and certainly not tonight when Hyman was kneed. You look up Leafs brawls on YouTube and there hasn't really been one since 2017.

Now I'm not asking this team to go out and have a line brawl every night, far from it. I don't want my thread to come off like that. My main point is that this team, despite added emphasis on protecting the goalies, does not truly stand up for themselves when they've been wronged or one of their own teammates has been targeted or hurt. But why? It's not like some of the guys we've brought in haven't played that way before or done that themselves. Muzzin has fought in response to a teammate getting hit. So has Simmonds. And Bogosian. Thornton has done it not once, but twice, though it was in response to he himself getting done dirty but he's participated in scrums to defend his teammates.

My question is why, now that all of these guys are here on the Toronto Maple Leafs, is this willingness to stand up for their teammates and themselves all of the sudden gone? Why does no one do ANYTHING when Matthews gets crosschecked hard in the back? Or Tavares gets run? It's not like these guys haven't done it before, and the incoming Foligno has certainly stood up for his teammates, is he going to be looking the other way now himself when he gets here and one of his new teammates is laid out?

It's infuriating to watch our players time and time again have liberties taken on them and our team just skate away. What is our revenge supposed to be the powerplay? Fat lot of good that's done us in the past month. I'm not saying if someone had done something to Edler earlier in the season after he tried to do Spezza it would've been deterred from injuring Hyman, but it might've.

Why is this franchise going out of their way to add toughness and grit if they aren't going to allow the players they acquire to actually play that way? Why don't they want them to play that way? Are they afraid of retribution? Yeah our pacifist approach has really protected our guys. Do they just not want the media drama? Are they afraid the league would come down harder on us than other teams for any hypothetical brawls or revenge hits?

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[Cynical]

I've always wondered this too. They brought in a couple of guys who had reputations for big hits and mixing it up. They all play like they're Mitch Marner's size now.

I made a comment in the post game thread about people thinking Foligno will be some sort of saviour. I fully expect Foligno to play nothing like that tough sob we're used to - especially as he plays more and more games. The new players always adapt a nicer guy attitude the more they play on this team.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Definitely seems cultural. Guys willing to drop the gloves and stick up for teammates probably want to know that others would do the same for them if needed, within reason. Obviously Marner isn't picking any fights with the Webers or Tkachuks of these teams, but generally the message used to be "do what's needed". It definitely seems that the perspective of "what's needed" has changed so much that despite what kind of a player you were you don't need to be "that" kind of player here.

 

[Bust]

We needed a fight tonight. It’s great when guys like bogo or Simmonds step up - but when it’s guys like Reilly in 2017 or Spezza last year in the playoffs, the guys will really get behind that.
It needs to be a tool we use more often. Matthews in particular would benefit from this tool used more often.

 

[Cynical]

Simmonds did fight earlier in the season. You saw Muzzin do the same thing in his first few games as a Leaf and same with a few other tough players they brought in like Clifford. What happened in each situation was those players were going 1 on 5 against the other team while the rest of their teammates skated around when the situation called for a scrap.

It's difficult for a player to keep that up against an entire team when your team doesn't have your back.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Simmonds did fight earlier in the season. You saw Muzzin do the same thing in his first few games as a Leaf and same with a few other tough players they brought in like Clifford. What happened in each situation was those players going 1 on 5 against the other team while the rest of their teammates skated around when the situation called for a scrap.

It's difficult for a player go keep that up against an entire team while your team doesn't have your back.

I've noticed that the will to fight or engage in any type of rough stuff or physicality drops off after a while too. It's like the team pulls these guys aside after they engage in rough stuff and tells them this:

 

[ponder]

I think it’s cultural too. We’ve been a soft team that doesn’t hit or fight for long enough that it’s become part of the culture.

If you ever listen to ex-NHLers talk (Spittin Chiclets, etc.), they don’t LIKE to fight. Every time you drop the gloves the risk is high you’re getting hurt in some way - concussion, broken hand, stitches, lost teeth, etc. They’re generally pretty scared to fight, but they do it because it’s expected of them, and they’re afraid of losing their jobs/getting benched if they’re not tough enough. This pressure doesn’t seem to be there on the Leafs - playing a soft, skilled game is fine. I don’t think they’re asking players not to fight, they just aren’t pressuring them to fight, so they don’t.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

We needed a fight tonight. It’s great when guys like bogo or Simmonds step up - but when it’s guys like Reilly in 2017 or Spezza last year in the playoffs, the guys will really get behind that.
It needs to be a tool we use more often. Matthews in particular would benefit from this tool used more often.

Because the smartest thing for our best player whose value is on the ice is to sit in the box for 5 minutes.

The team played hard all night and has played hard for much of the season. It was a full 60 minute effort today. Just could not buy a goal, and even had a goal disallowed that would have made it a win in regulation.

It's been night and day vs. recent years, especially under Babcock. Just because they don't run around punching people out or whatever BS crap our fans think is "sticking up for their teammates" does not mean they don't have heart. It just means they know that is not how you are going to win a game. They also probably realize that we don't have the best reputation with the refs, especially when it comes to physical skirmishes. We rarely ever get the benefit of the doubt, and the only thing worse than seeing one of your guys taking a big hit is to also take a stupid penalty right after it. That has already been a noticieable factor in costing us two 1st round playoff series as it is... We don't need it costing us any more.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

I say we hire Tortorella to slap some sense into these spineless cowards. Don’t like it, you’re gone. Hate this wimpy, trash hockey they always settle into before the playoffs.

 

[fahad203]

It must come from the top Bell/Rogers. I think this club does everything to be a good corporation. You know like a good consulting or tech company. Does the right thing, looks good, always invovled in community, in gender and racial stuff.

This organization is busy being everything but a hockey club.

Keefe is soft. Simple as that. Keefe believes in not starting something because his pretty boys snowflakes are gonna get run over. He's too afraid to call out his own players like Sutter did in Calgary

Torts has no problem benching a star like Laine who they traded for. Not Keefe though.

He rather play Kerfoot, Mikaheyev and Engvall. Last guy that got into a fight in Sabourin and threw some hits. Never played after a good hard hit. Those plays used to be rewarded

 

[frog]

If you bodycheck someone the entire other team will come after you and won't forget it.... Your team will just watch the scrum or slowly drift in after the whistle. It's easier to just not pokecheck or not get too involved. The leafs never understand that its more than a coincidence that teams that have each other's backs and an occasional line brawl seem to be a much closer and stronger team.

 

[Teeder Keon]

If you bodycheck someone the entire other team will come after you and won't forget it.... Your team will just watch the scrum or slowly drift in after the whistle. It's easier to just not pokecheck or not get too involved. The leafs never understand that its more than a coincidence that teams that have each other's backs and an occasional line brawl seem to be a much closer and stronger team.

You must have played hockey or other team sports
Almost always you can tell people’s ages here and if they played team sports especially hockey or lacrosse
Almost always , ....

 

[Wafflewhipper]

This Leafs team, despite the newfound "toughness, grit, and character" approach still seems as soft and unengaging as ever, and I'm starting to believe it's an intentional message from the coaching staff and management, and not solely on the players.

Take the games against Calgary a little bit ago. Holl absolutely crushed Gaudrea and the Flames did not forget it. Tkachuk fought Holl to send a message, and Lucic and Tanev went after Matthews in response. Hyman got injured on a dirty play and what did the Leafs do? Nothing. This isn't the first time Edler has tried to injure a Leaf as in a game earlier this season he tried to take out Spezza, but of course no one did anything about it. Jordie Benn on the Canucks however was quick to challenge Simmonds after the latter layed out Quinn Hughes, young star defenseman on the Canucks.

The last time the Leafs engaged in any sort of brouhaha as a response to a perceived slight that you see teams across the league engage in was back in 2016 against these same Canucks when the game was getting out of hand, Martin went after a rookie, Miller after Martin, and Andersen even joined in. Earlier that game Burrows went after Rielly, a tough guy went after Komarov, and Martin did what he did in response. Despite Martin remaining on the team for another two years (along with agitators in Kadri and Komarov, and another tough guy in Polak) nothing of the sort ever really happened again. There've been a couple of other multi-player fights and scrums but never in response to one of our players getting laid out or hurt. Not when Andersson shoved Matthews into the boards and aggravated his wrist, not when Robertson was hurt in his first game of the season, and certainly not tonight when Hyman was kneed. You look up Leafs brawls on YouTube and there hasn't really been one since 2017.

Now I'm not asking this team to go out and have a line brawl every night, far from it. I don't want my thread to come off like that. My main point is that this team, despite added emphasis on protecting the goalies, does not truly stand up for themselves when they've been wronged or one of their own teammates has been targeted or hurt. But why? It's not like some of the guys we've brought in haven't played that way before or done that themselves. Muzzin has fought in response to a teammate getting hit. So has Simmonds. And Bogosian. Thornton has done it not once, but twice, though it was in response to he himself getting done dirty but he's participated in scrums to defend his teammates.

My question is why, now that all of these guys are here on the Toronto Maple Leafs, is this willingness to stand up for their teammates and themselves all of the sudden gone? Why does no one do ANYTHING when Matthews gets crosschecked hard in the back? Or Tavares gets run? It's not like these guys haven't done it before, and the incoming Foligno has certainly stood up for his teammates, is he going to be looking the other way now himself when he gets here and one of his new teammates is laid out?

It's infuriating to watch our players time and time again have liberties taken on them and our team just skate away. What is our revenge supposed to be the powerplay? Fat lot of good that's done us in the past month. I'm not saying if someone had done something to Edler earlier in the season after he tried to do Spezza in that he wouldn't have injured Hyman, but it might've.

Why is this franchise going out of their way to add toughness and grit if they aren't going to allow the players they acquire to actually play that way? Why don't they want them to play that way? Are they afraid of retribution? Yeah our pacifist approach has really protected our guys. Do they just not want the media drama? Are they afraid the league would come down harder on us than other teams for any hypothetical brawls or revenge hits?

We’ll never know

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I say we hire Tortorella to slap some sense into these spineless cowards. Don’t like it, you’re gone. Hate this wimpy, trash hockey they always settle into before the playoffs.

They are toothless. Good for a gummer lol

 

[All Mod Cons]

It's definitely a cultural thing. Since Lou left, we've got rid of anyone who would show some push back. That was a conscious decision by our current management, which is their prerogative.

This is my biggest concern with the GM. If there's no stats to go by, I don't know if he can fully see what's needed.

Some fans think we addressed the toughness/grit issue this season. However, there are other fans that don't think we've even scratched the surface.

Jake Muzzin isn't a fighter contrary to some fan's beliefs. Zach Bogosian has a couple a year, and is generally on pace for that. Joe Thornton cannot keep up with anything. He gets his 10% discount at Shoppers on a Tuesday and a free bus pass. Wayne Simmonds is probably one injury away from being out of the league and Zach Hyman can't do anymore than he does. Hopefully he doesn't take it personally that no one stuck up for him and just knows that this is the way management wanted this team to act.

In order to play a tough, in the trenches game, the Leafs need about 8 different faces. They don't have to be goons but they need to be able to grind through games (think Muzzin/Bogosian).

They also have to do a 180 on the style of game they play. This won't happen of course, so we're really stuck in no man's land.

 

[PromisedLand]

I remember JT and Matthews getting hit blind side including Rielly and nobody did F-all on this team.

On top of that Freddy was run over so many times but this team didn't do F-all.

@Cynical above lays it out clearly. At least grab a few players when Simmonds or someone else is going at it.

Just look at the puck flip video from Muzzin; and look at the Leafs players in that video....

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Because the smartest thing for our best player whose value is on the ice is to sit in the box for 5 minutes.

The team played hard all night and has played hard for much of the season. It was a full 60 minute effort today. Just could not buy a goal, and even had a goal disallowed that would have made it a win in regulation.

It's been night and day vs. recent years, especially under Babcock. Just because they don't run around punching people out or whatever BS crap our fans think is "sticking up for their teammates" does not mean they don't have heart. It just means they know that is not how you are going to win a game. They also probably realize that we don't have the best reputation with the refs, especially when it comes to physical skirmishes. We rarely ever get the benefit of the doubt, and the only thing worse than seeing one of your guys taking a big hit is to also take a stupid penalty right after it. That has already been a noticieable factor in costing us two 1st round playoff series as it is... We don't need it costing us any more.

That BS as you call it that “won’t help us win a game” is the type of thing contending level teams engage in plenty of times. Boston, Washington, Colorado, Tampa, Vegas, all these contenders engage in fights, scrums, and stick up for their teammates when they feel they’ve been wronged, and all have had vastly more success than we have had.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Players on the ice done nothing and it looks like Mikheyev,Kerfoot,Muzzin and Likely Brodie was the only one that didn’t see it. Seriously cowardice if one of them seen it and it looks like all but Brodie did

 

[SeaOfBlue]

That BS as you call it that “won’t help us win a game” is the type of thing contending level teams engage in plenty of times. Boston, Washington, Colorado, Tampa, Vegas, all these contenders engage in fights, scrums, and stick up for their teammates when they feel they’ve been wronged, and all have had vastly more success than we have had.

I am sure their immense amount of skill, disciplined team game, and excellent goaltending would say they play a much larger part in their success, as it does for literally every contending team.

Let's also not pretend like we never stand up for guys. We do and we will. We just are smart about it. If we, for example, went after Edler right away, we would have lost a prime scoring chance that Kerfoot generated right after that play happened. I would rather have that scoring chance or not take a penalty than go after Edler in that situation.

 

[hockeyes]

The guys making the most $$ set the tone and what is expected. None of the 40 million crew have a mean bone in their bodies. It's a business first and a team sport second. The Toronto market exasperates the business aspect with how easy it is to get side deals just by being on the team and putting on a show for the camera/social media. Does a nobody winger like Mikheyev pick up a major sponsorship playing anywhere else? Maybe, but probably for a lot less as well.

So yes, it's a culture problem.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I am sure their immense amount of skill, disciplined team game, and excellent goaltending would say they play a much larger part in their success, as it does for literally every contending team.

Let's also not pretend like we never stand up for guys. We do and we will. We just are smart about it. If we, for example, went after Edler right away, we would have lost a prime scoring chance that Kerfoot generated right after that play happened. I would rather have that scoring chance or not take a penalty than go after Edler in that situation.

Literally point to the last time this team stood up for themselves that didn’t involve Andy or Campbell getting run? Because protecting the goalie should be automatic, and even that was not the case with this team for a long time until this season, see examples One and Two.

And that last sentence I bolded, God the arrogance stemming from it. “Yeah we might not protect ourselves as much as other teams, but it’s because we’re just geniuses who know better.” Yeah and guys like MacKinnon, Rantanen, Ovechkin, Kucherov, Stone, etc. are idiots for standing up for themselves and their team and occasionally getting their hands dirty.

 

[lottster14]

That would be pretty pathetic if they did. "Don't play the game that is necessary for playoff success, boys!"

 

[Torontonian]

Leaves a sour taste in my mouth that the boys don't protect each other. Its a team game and someone like Hyman gets hit dirty like that, and no one does anything. I just appears its not in the teams DNA to stick up for eachother.

 

[paulhiggins]

Leaves a sour taste in my mouth that the boys don't protect each other. Its a team game and someone like Hyman gets hit dirty like that, and no one does anything. I just appears its not in the teams DNA to stick up for eachother.

I've developed the same loyalty to them when I decide whether to watch their wussy show or a movie instead. I often "look the other way" when these gutlesses are playing. This is a collection of players, not a team. I do agree that they are being taken aside and discouraged to play like men.

From what I've seen around the Leaf forums, many strangely agree with this "turn the other cheek" philosophy and pile up on any guy that shows some fight on the ice. Remember all the bitching here about Domi? Orr? Kadri? The team culture has been ruined by a vocal minority and an ownership/management that values political correctness above winning.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Leaves a sour taste in my mouth that the boys don't protect each other. Its a team game and someone like Hyman gets hit dirty like that, and no one does anything. I just appears its not in the teams DNA to stick up for eachother.

When it’s a close or tied game you take down the # and deal with it later. You don’t squander a PP opportunity