Does the 2021 Habs roster not get enough credit? | Page 4 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Does the 2021 Habs roster not get enough credit?

The team was not great in 2021 after a strong start. They played terribly for a good chunk of the season.

There was also a lot of revisionist history with the Toronto series. I thought they looked awful for 5 of the 7 games and don't get through without Price being literally unbeatable.

Kudos to them to spanking Winnipeg and Vegas that year. Ill give them credit. They got absolutely spanked by Tampa.

I feel like that team gets revisionist props for playing very well in two playoff rounds and a hot start. Outside that, they werent a good or well built team. This was reflected by the fact they plummeted hard the following season.
 
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I for one, often get slammed when I say that I have never drank the ‘ Carey Price is the greatest athlete on earth koolaid ‘ as Marc Bergevin said when he gave him the abyssal contract; but during that playoff run , Price was absolutely in beast mode…. probably the most dominating playoff performance since Roy’s 11 overtime win streak.
He was clearly living rent free in Toronto’s, Vegas’ and Jets’ heads.
Our top 4 D were absolute gladiators that made everybody pay in our zone, and for a reason unknown ( besides maybe being veterans and therefore being respected by refs? ) , they dished out the pain without taking too many penalties.
Danault and Leks were beauties, Suzuki and Caufield were also fantastic.
It was no fluke; the back end was perfectly built for the playoffs.
 
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Given that the argument was made by a number of ex-NHL players/coaches turned analyists a call to someone's familiarity with elite level hockey coaching & tactics doesn't help your case.

In your opinion... But perhaps you misunderstood my comment.

In referencing familiarity, I include the understanding that not all professional assessments are as accurate. Being familiar with something includes understanding it's limitations... Your response suggests a lack of that kind of familiarity.

If you feel that the roster and performance of that playoff run deserves more praise and less critique, power to you. I disagree with that assessment for the reasons I outlined, if deferral to 'some' elements of authority is your main argument, I'd say that's a poorly grounded.

And if we were knocked out by the leafs then a lot of posters would've put the blame on Price since posters always blame the goalie even when they do well. So again not sure how that helps your argument.

It frames the limitation of your critique... As does the example you use with price.

Further, I don't agree that "posters always blame the goalie". In this recent first round exit I don't recall much if any blame being directed on Monty or Dobes. Regardless, to be relevant to the example I offered, we'd have to wait a few years to see if the same posters "blaming" the goalies would have then revised their opinions... So your point here seems flawed in multiple ways.

Now it's true the #1 best defence is controlling the puck in the opponents zone, however you can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. And given the reality that even very very good teams do spend significant time in their own zone it is worth looking at what's best when in your zone defending, which is clearing the net and keeping the shots to the outside.

Nice strawman. And no, I disagree. "What's best" is regaining possession, and then all other options descend from there.

What I think you mean to suggest, is that what is most effective based on the assets available, is whatever approach reduces the quality of scoring chance. Which is exactly what I tried to outline... In the case of the roster we had, which was a poorly built cap limit roster, the approach used was quite likely the only one that had a chance of success... And it required HOF caliber goaltending to succeed, by design.

You don't design that as a strategy when you have a roster that is competitive with the opponents. Which we didn't. We played well over our heads, which is nothing to criticize or complain about in terms of what the players & ciachrs achieved with the group they had... The GMs years of poor decisions led to the roster limitations they had to work with.

no need or value, imo, to create a false narrative suggesting that it is a good model to follow. A better built roster with the talent to compete and win in a variety of ways, is a far superior approach.

We're watching that unfold as we speak. But, as with all elite sports, upsets and hot runs do occur. Once you're in "win or go home" situations, it doesn't matter what your roster looks like, all that matters is winning.

Are the Oilers vindicated in losing Holloway & Broberg so that they could pay Jeff Skinner to sit in the stands and Henrique can play 14min/night? Were they wise to keep relying on S.Skinner & Pickard as their goalie tandem through prime McDrai years?

Not in my opinion, but here they are on the cusp of another finals appearance.

Just win baby isn't a particularly good way to assess the quality of a roster or of a roster building process. Luck & timing inevitably play a role in every success story, and, some approaches are demonstrably better than others. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive.

And I would point out this argument of looking at shots to prove we were being dominated doesn't actually hold much weight. Overall the shot differential was less then 2 shots per game and in the cup finals it was under a single shot per game. There were times we were dominated and there were times we dominated, there were times where shot totals reflected that domination and many of the shots were high quality ones and there were times that there were lots of shots but not a lot of dangerous ones. The eye test for me said we were outplayed by Toronto, we outplayed Winipeg by a lot and Vegas by a little, and everything came crashing down against Tampa.

agree to disagree.

The full season sample size doesn't seem to agree with your observations either.
 
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No luck at all???????? We were 18th in the league, playing in the easiest division?

TB abused the cap and the LTIR stuff, that we can agree on....
it was absolutely not the easiest division that year, it was the 2nd best, maybe the 3rd but the west that season was garbage (Anaheim, SJ and LA we're all worse then the worst team in the north). Never mind the central where teams got to feast on CBJ, Detroit and Chicago.

There wasn't a top heavy team in that division ex toronto, but the division had more teams that we're in that 9-16 range then all the others.
 
In your opinion... But perhaps you misunderstood my comment.

In referencing familiarity, I include the understanding that not all professional assessments are as accurate. Being familiar with something includes understanding it's limitations... Your response suggests a lack of that kind of familiarity.

If you feel that the roster and performance of that playoff run deserves more praise and less critique, power to you. I disagree with that assessment for the reasons I outlined, if deferral to 'some' elements of authority is your main argument, I'd say that's a poorly grounded.
And you've misunderstood mine completely. Your comment implied that you a random poster are very familiar with elite level hockey and coaching tactics and your opinion is grounded in that familiarty and by extension anyone disagreeing with your highly educated analysis is simply not familair with elite level hockey and coaching tactics. In essence you were making an appeal to authority while also claiming you were the expert authority.

My comment wasn't an appeal to authority it was actually pointing out the irony that even if we were to accept an appeal to authority in this instance, you a random internet poster are at the bottom of barrel compared to the actual professionals like former players and coaches.

If you didn't mean to imply that you were such an expert whose familiar with elite level hockey and coaching tactics then sure I misunderstood, but I have the feeling you do in fact believe that you are familiar with elite level hockey and coaching tactics, afterall why else would you have brought it up.
It frames the limitation of your critique... As does the example you use with price.

Further, I don't agree that "posters always blame the goalie". In this recent first round exit I don't recall much if any blame being directed on Monty or Dobes. Regardless, to be relevant to the example I offered, we'd have to wait a few years to see if the same posters "blaming" the goalies would have then revised their opinions... So your point here seems flawed in multiple ways.
Again just pointing out the hypocrisy of your statements. You are probably right that if we go oiut against Toronto nobody talks about the 4 Clysedales, but who cares, posters on this forum like you and me are not good sources of analysis.
Nice strawman. And no, I disagree. "What's best" is regaining possession, and then all other options descend from there.

What I think you mean to suggest, is that what is most effective based on the assets available, is whatever approach reduces the quality of scoring chance. Which is exactly what I tried to outline... In the case of the roster we had, which was a poorly built cap limit roster, the approach used was quite likely the only one that had a chance of success... And it required HOF caliber goaltending to succeed, by design.

You don't design that as a strategy when you have a roster that is competitive with the opponents. Which we didn't. We played well over our heads, which is nothing to criticize or complain about in terms of what the players & ciachrs achieved with the group they had... The GMs years of poor decisions led to the roster limitations they had to work with.

no need or value, imo, to create a false narrative suggesting that it is a good model to follow. A better built roster with the talent to compete and win in a variety of ways, is a far superior approach.

We're watching that unfold as we speak. But, as with all elite sports, upsets and hot runs do occur. Once you're in "win or go home" situations, it doesn't matter what your roster looks like, all that matters is winning.

Are the Oilers vindicated in losing Holloway & Broberg so that they could pay Jeff Skinner to sit in the stands and Henrique can play 14min/night? Were they wise to keep relying on S.Skinner & Pickard as their goalie tandem through prime McDrai years?

Not in my opinion, but here they are on the cusp of another finals appearance.

Just win baby isn't a particularly good way to assess the quality of a roster or of a roster building process. Luck & timing inevitably play a role in every success story, and, some approaches are demonstrably better than others. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive.
What strawman exactly?

There are times where you will be giving up shots. In those instances it's best to have those shots come from the outside with the front of the net cleared right? Because I can't see how you think any of that is untrue or a strawman. Having a defence that does that well is a good thing even if the best thing that can happen is to quickly regain possession and deny the shot entirely.

Now you could argue that how good our D was at actually keeping the puck to shots from the outside, and clearing the crease so Price could see it actually was, but that goes back to my OP, you'll need to actually look at the shot data and not the shot totals for that.
agree to disagree.

The full season sample size doesn't seem to agree with your observations either.
Looking at the shot data per series and we see that against Tampa it was actually very close. However everyone who watched the games would say that's not right, the series wasn't close at all. But sure agree to disagree all you want and pretend that shot totals is the best indication.
 

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