Does skating speed and foot speed translate?

[kmart]

when talking about a pure, olympic style sprint and the correlation to poentially fast skating, there isnt't that much transfer. In sprinting, your legs move up and down in a quarter circly mothion before you pull your heel up again as soon as you have transfered your energy to that ground. While making contact to the ground, your almost exended hamstrings "pull" you forward along the ground while your psoas (hipflexors) pull your leg up

In skating, your hamstrings play a lesser role, the abductors play a more important role togehter with your quads and glutes. To transfer energy to the ground through your skates, you have to push off your legs diagonally back.

you are talking about the transfer in techniques - u have a point BUT dont forget that the physical ability transfers very well to track running, Olympic fast skating, or accelerating in hockey. u can see at first glance that all olmpyic fast skaters (at least in short distance) have something in common with olmpyic track sprinters, just compare the instagrams - do it for females while u at it.

 

[turkleton85]

you are talking about the transfer in techniques - u have a point BUT dont forget that the physical ability transfers very well to track running, Olympic fast skating, or accelerating in hockey. u can see at first glance that all olmpyic fast skaters (at least in short distance) have something in common with olmpyic track sprinters, just compare the instagrams - do it for females while u at it.

Of course your genetic build up is similar when you compare "explosive" to "explosive". I didn't say that good skaters are not good sprinters. But the movements and therefore muscles recriuting complex is pretty different.

 

[kmart]

Of course your genetic build up is similar when you compare "explosive" to "explosive". I didn't say that good skaters are not good sprinters. But the movements and therefore muscles recriuting complex is pretty different.

now we are splitting hairs, it makes very little difference if the workload in the muscles group differentiate - nobody is going to come up with a training plan that will improve ur core/quad muscles regarding acceleration in hockey but without improving the muscles that are active during, track sprinting the improvements in muscle growth will correlate, thats the point.

 

[OG Eberle]

As someone who trains hockey players of all levels, running speed does not translate into skating speed. Some of the most athletic specimens in the gym/track do not see nearly the same success on the ice.

Like a few mentioned, the biomechanics of the movement are quite different and require/bias different muscles. The only takeaways or correlations you could possibly make would be cardiorespiratory carry over in terms of aerobic and anaerobic thresholds. There is certainly carry over there. Being strong, powerful, and quick are always going to be more beneficial to raise an athlete's ceiling in terms of physical capabilities. But technique and skill training for on-ice performance is going to be the key to seeing the most difference in-game.

To be completely fair, ice hockey is probably the sport where what is accomplished in the gym, regardless of movements, has the least amount of direct carryover onto the ice.

 

[johan f]

Depends how much a player weights and kind of muscles. P Forsberg run very slow but obvious was no slush on skates.

 

[Tutu to]

In a lot of cases explosive/fast twitch athletes tend to be great skaters but it definitely doesn’t always translate. Skating technique is probably even more important.

Something tells me Connor McDavid isn’t amongst the fastest runners in the league.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Acceleration requires power from fast twitch muscles and definitely skating has a correlation with that for running.

Top speed on foot is a combination of turnover and stride length which also requires power but in skating at top speed the glide element that doesn't exist for running is huge...this is in part why no hockey players can keep up with top speed skaters at top speed...unless they put on and learn to utilize speed skates to take advantage of the extra glide.

But they can certainly match, or better, their acceleration at lower speeds. The best NHL skaters tend to be top accelerators.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Acceleration requires power from fast twitch muscles and definitely skating has a correlation with that for running.
Top speed on foot is a combination of turnover and stride length which also requires power but in skating at top speed the glide element that doesn't exist for running is huge...this is in part why no hockey players can keep up with top speed skaters at top speed...unless they put on and learn to utilize speed skates to take advantage of the extra glide.

But they can certainly match, or better, their acceleration at lower speeds.

You are comparing hockey players to other skaters like speed skaters/figure skaters?

 

[Crosbyfan]

You are comparing hockey players to other skaters like speed skaters/figure skaters?

Speed skaters yes. As per how it reflects on the topic.
Not sure where you found anything about figure skating in that.

 

[turkleton85]

now we are splitting hairs, it makes very little difference if the workload in the muscles group differentiate - nobody is going to come up with a training plan that will improve ur core/quad muscles regarding acceleration in hockey but without improving the muscles that are active during, track sprinting the improvements in muscle growth will correlate, thats the point.

Not in track sprinting. Developing strength and power in track sprinting is pretty much a game of its own. It really is.

When we talk about a soccer player who takes part in a hockey players workout to improve explosiveness, there might be a carry over.

 

[turkleton85]

As someone who trains hockey players of all levels, running speed does not translate into skating speed. Some of the most athletic specimens in the gym/track do not see nearly the same success on the ice.

Like a few mentioned, the biomechanics of the movement are quite different and require/bias different muscles. The only takeaways or correlations you could possibly make would be cardiorespiratory carry over in terms of aerobic and anaerobic thresholds. There is certainly carry over there. Being strong, powerful, and quick are always going to be more beneficial to raise an athlete's ceiling in terms of physical capabilities. But technique and skill training for on-ice performance is going to be the key to seeing the most difference in-game.

To be completely fair, ice hockey is probably the sport where what is accomplished in the gym, regardless of movements, has the least amount of direct carryover onto the ice.

I would not say that. You can specialize a workout for a hockey player more than you can for a basketball player, for example. You can create and build exercises that mirror the sport better than a lot of other team sports. Same in swimming, very good potenial carry over. In team sports like soccer and basketball, not so much because "running on your feet" is not a skill you learned through the sport, and taking a shot in basketball isn't something where much power is required, whereas in hockey the slapshot - if technically sound - has a lot of potential to be increased through athletic training, same as the wrist shot

 

[Channelcat]

Paul Coffey was the extreme example of a slow smooth stride generating high speed.

 

[Zach716]

Paul Coffey was the extreme example of a slow smooth stride generating high speed.

Yep Jack Eichel is another good example in the modern NHL. Makes every stride look effortless and efficient.

 

[TD Charlie]

Power is work over time. If you can do the same amount of work in less time, you're putting out more power and should skate faster. To translate it to skating; two guys of identical size with equal strength and stroke in their strides, but one guy has "quick feet" and does it in slightly less time. So he's the faster skater

So I would say that skating speed and foot speed certainly could translate, but being two totally different physical mechanics I say that more often than not, they don't translate. Not to mention there's far more friction in play with skating that totally ruins the equations

 

[EdJovanovski]

Paul Coffey was the extreme example of a slow smooth stride generating high speed.

With all these replies I swear no one read the thread lmao, he’s talking about skating translating to RUNNING when he said foot speed lol, even specifies it when saying like what would their times be in a running race

 

[OG Eberle]

I would not say that. You can specialize a workout for a hockey player more than you can for a basketball player, for example. You can create and build exercises that mirror the sport better than a lot of other team sports. Same in swimming, very good potenial carry over. In team sports like soccer and basketball, not so much because "running on your feet" is not a skill you learned through the sport, and taking a shot in basketball isn't something where much power is required, whereas in hockey the slapshot - if technically sound - has a lot of potential to be increased through athletic training, same as the wrist shot

I disagree completely. The biomechanics and kinematics of skating are very different from anything land based. With basketball, you can 100% train someone to move lateral quicker, jump higher, react quicker, etc... and then couple that with skill work to see substantial increases. That is not the same when it comes to ice skating. Even in swimming, you can utilize the exact movement patterns used in most strokes, especially when it comes to upper body pulls.

Even a slap shot, the fact that your ankles are completely immobile in skates makes the transfer of force through almost any conventional lift very different on land as opposed to on skates. Sure you can increase velocity or power in a chest press or rotatory press with some carryover, but to argue that you can have better carryover from the gym to ice hockey vs basketball makes very little sense. This is both shown in research and anecdotally.

 

[rangersfansince08]

With all these replies I swear no one read the thread lmao, he’s talking about skating translating to RUNNING when he said foot speed lol, even specifies it when saying like what would their times be in a running race

Yea I was asking if fast skaters are fast in general. I should have been clearer though I guess.

 

[Sky04]

To a degree in terms of power from your legs yes but skating a mostly about technique.

 

[rambo97]

No - hockey players are known to be horrible linear sprinters. Kevin Neeld (Bos) has mentioned this many times on his website. The Sens S&C coach has as well. Mike Boyle also. Their arm action and technique is horrible.

The only thing fast skaters and sprinters have in common is very strong and powerful cores (which is absolutely necessary for any kind of speed).

Both (sprinting and skating) are very highly technical. Many people will assume linear sprinting is easy (as we can all do it) but most of us have horrible form. Linear sprinting requires more upright body and applying force into the ground linear. Fast skating requires your COM to be lower (bent ankles and knees) and for force to be applied laterally.

If you don’t practice either (for years) you won’t be good at either

 

[majormajor]

No - hockey players are known to be horrible linear sprinters.

Some of them, I can imagine.

The Foudy brothers are both amazing skaters and were also competitive sprinters at the Ontario level. Very high foot speed.

Even without perfect technique in sprinting, someone with great genetics for that kind of explosive running will still be very fast. Someone like Mackinnon I would guess would be a crazy fast runner. Marchand I would use as an example of a guy that I don't think would run that fast. You can see that some guys are more abductors and glutes, and would need a very different musculature to achieve speed on foot.

 

[turkleton85]

I disagree completely. The biomechanics and kinematics of skating are very different from anything land based. With basketball, you can 100% train someone to move lateral quicker, jump higher, react quicker, etc... and then couple that with skill work to see substantial increases. That is not the same when it comes to ice skating. Even in swimming, you can utilize the exact movement patterns used in most strokes, especially when it comes to upper body pulls.

Even a slap shot, the fact that your ankles are completely immobile in skates makes the transfer of force through almost any conventional lift very different on land as opposed to on skates. Sure you can increase velocity or power in a chest press or rotatory press with some carryover, but to argue that you can have better carryover from the gym to ice hockey vs basketball makes very little sense. This is both shown in research and anecdotally.

We are both from the same field obviously, working with athletes. I must admit that i havent had many hockey players in my workout group yet, so maybe i jumped to conclusions a bit too fast. The progress hockey players made in on ice movements were larger in the same time span than basketball players made, and the movement patterns (although without skates, i'm not going to argue that they change the way one can move) were pretty good to imitate. Since you are mainly working with hockey players, I'll leave my experiences at that. The larger the test group, the more reliable the results, so you got the edge.

 

[Trojans86]

It totally depends on what level Skater you are. For a beginner technique and edge control are substantially more important than athleticism. Just go watch a free skate to see high school kids walk across the ice. At higher levels where elite players have already been trained extensively on technique, strength, hip mobility, explosiveness are key to push a player to be faster. Go watch how nhl players train off the ice to get an idea.

On top of all of that a players natural bodyshape and build have a huge impact on the potential. Being bow legged can be a huge advantage. Squatty builds like Crosby can be very useful for a strong Skater.

Another thing to note is how some of the younger nhl players have adopted newer skating styles with untying eyelets for added ankle mobility, short and choppy crossovers like McDavid where the Skater is almost falling to the ice and catching himself each stride. Not nearly as many Skaters are skating with the long and slow crossover that used to dominate.

 

[Laodongxi]

It totally depends on what level Skater you are. For a beginner technique and edge control are substantially more important than athleticism. Just go watch a free skate to see high school kids walk across the ice. At higher levels where elite players have already been trained extensively on technique, strength, hip mobility, explosiveness are key to push a player to be faster. Go watch how nhl players train off the ice to get an idea.

On top of all of that a players natural bodyshape and build have a huge impact on the potential. Being bow legged can be a huge advantage. Squatty builds like Crosby can be very useful for a strong Skater.

Another thing to note is how some of the younger nhl players have adopted newer skating styles with untying eyelets for added ankle mobility, short and choppy crossovers like McDavid where the Skater is almost falling to the ice and catching himself each stride. Not nearly as many Skaters are skating with the long and slow crossover that used to dominate.

Here's a good video that goes into ankle mobility a little more deeply with McDavid. The arm swing and head movement of a skater are similar to a sprinter but the lateral forces into the ice are very different.

Try it yourself if you get the chance. It makes a profound difference if you keep experimenting with ankle and knee flex.

 

[TaLoN]

Or is it so different that there is no relation? If there is a correlation what kind of 40 times would guys like McDavid, Larkin, Kreider run?

Skating and running are two completely different motions. Being elite in one has no relation to being elite in the other.

 

[Son of Nogatco]

Definitely.
Skating mechanics & technique obviously can increase your speed greatly, but it still operates within the realm of what your athletic ceiling is. For example I didn't play ice hockey until later than some of my friends but I've always been an incredibly fast sprinter. After a couple years even though they were still technically better skaters than me, I was faster than some of them because of that athletic advantage.

What’s your 40 time?