Does size matter less than before in the NHL?

[Hasbro]

Size Queens.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Your problem is that the smaller guys you are listing are the exceptions, not the rule.

Sure, Hughes and Fox aren’t big. But most teams don’t have a guy like that. 99% of defensemen that are under 6’0 aren’t as good as those guys.

So if you have small players, and they don’t have elite skill, then what? They’re at more of a disadvantage than a player who is of similar skill, but is at least bigger.

Of course, they are the exception, they’re elite players. My point is that a decade ago, you could barely find a single small elite defenseman whereas now we have multiple. Teams also don’t seem to shy away from drafting small guys anymore, even on defense.

And 99% of defensemen over 6’ also aren’t as good as those guys.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

So many size dimensions are exaggerated (which is pretty hilarious in this day and age) that it's hard to tell for sure based on the "official" statistics.

Maybe if we assume that they are consistently overrated from era to era, and from player to player...

I've met a few active NHL players over the years whose official heights are taller than me and I'm looking down on them.

Maybe they were measured with their skates on

 

[Appleyard]

I can't figure out the point of players lying about their heights, unless they use their hockey profiles on dating apps.

From interviewing and meeting quite a lot of NHLers...

I would say that probably ~50% are actually the height listed at. Then ~40% are about an inch smaller. Then ~8% are more than an inch smaller...

then there is Michael Raffl on an island who is bigger than his listed height aha. Listed at 183 (6'0) for years when is probably around 187 (closest to 6'2).

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yeah, but all of those guys are 190+ lbs whereas Karlsson was around 165 when he entered the league. 20-30 lbs is a massive weight advantage. Not sure how much Lidstrom weighed when he came in though.


Everyone likes being taller. Draymond Green was pissed off when they dropped him from 6'6" to 6'5", his real height lol.

So your only talking about their draft weight then,
not what they filled out to be in a few years., and their playing weight.

 

[Bank Shot]

Of course, they are the exception, they’re elite players. My point is that a decade ago, you could barely find a single small elite defenseman whereas now we have multiple. Teams also don’t seem to shy away from drafting small guys anymore, even on defense.

And 99% of defensemen over 6’ also aren’t as good as those guys.

Yeah I dunno if that is true. Even if we look back 20 years before the lockout and the last year of the deadpuck era, there were elite small defencemen in the league.

03/04 Tampa won the Cup. Dan Boyle 5'11" played a big part in that.
Marek Zidilicky was 5th in D scoring that year. 5'11"
7th Brian Leetch. Same height and weight as Makar. 6 foot 190
9th in scoring Mathieu Schneider. 5'11"
12th. Kimmo Timonen. 5'10"
Brian Rafalski missed some games to injury that year so finished out of top 20 in scoring but he won 3 Cups. Great player. 5'10"

Talking about forwards, St.Louis won the Art Ross that year. You had Theoren Fleury play in the 90-2000s. Has there been a tiny forward that played exclusively in the lockout era as good as either of those guys? I can't think of one.

 

[colchar]

It could be I'm just looking at the wrong things but doesn't size matter much less than before?

Experiencing some shrinkage and clutching at (a) straws?

 

[x Tame Impala]

Keith is 5’11.

Smaller mobile D have always been a thing, so long as their competitive as hell.

Kieth is 6'1" or at least very close to it. Met him in person a few times

 

[Golden_Jet]

Keith is 5’11.

Smaller mobile D have always been a thing, so long as their competitive as hell.

6’1” on a couple of web pages

 

[WarriorofTime]

It matters a lot for Defensemen.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I think you're either an effective NHL player or you're not. Having a scrub 6'2" Dman in your top 4 isn't any more beneficial than having a scrub 5'10" guy there instead. Same with forwards. The game is physical but it's not like these players are mountains of men.

Size gets overblown. 5'8" Alex DeBrincat has the 3rd most goals and points from that 2016 Draft.

 

[Oak]

In todays NHL skating is more important than size. The game is all about speed. The are a lot more defensemen in the 5'11-6'1 range which was considered too small at one time. Size still matters but its mostly in the playoffs when games get really tight and more physical. Although if you're 6'5 and lack speed or agility you will suffer.

Noah Dobson had a good regular season but his lack of speed and mobility really showed during the playoffs. However Bouchard who is only an inch shorter is doing great. It's all in the mechanics, agility and speed.

In another twist on the theory, Montour is only 6'0 but he plays a lot bigger than his size and he is a pretty good skater, although I wouldn't say his skating is elite compared to other D in the 6'0 range around the league.

Either way I don't think there will ever be a set formula that every team will copy. St Louis won the cup 5 years ago with a really big and heavy team. Tampa won 2 years in a row with no little guys besides Brayden Point who is an excellent player and also plays way bigger than his size, and Kucherov who also doesn't shy from tough play and has found a way to excel in the playoffs.

Avalanche won next but they have Makar who is a unicorn and he has no problems playing both ends of the ice even though he is on the smaller end. Elite mechanics, speed and agility. If anything Girard is the one who struggles a lot but they still like him enough to keep him, but he is shorter and more importantly slower than Makar. His IQ also a lacking which is another factor we haven't mentioned yet.

Then you have Vegas who is just big all around. Seems like there is no clear rule. If you can play, you can play.

Dahlin is 6'3 and a phenomenal skater who is extremely agile, but Moritz Seider is the same height yet struggles with agility in tight spaces.

Then we have the outlier Fox who is a terrible skater and very slow yet he has found a way to create offense through incredible IQ and stick work. However Foxes lack of speed and agility really shows when the playoffs start.

Anyway these are my opinions which I feel have been clearly validated. Hfboard homers, sorry if I offended you by not praising your player.

 

[57special]

Everything matters. Size or reach matters, but what some people seem to gloss over on here is that one 5'10", 190 lb player is not the same as others with the exact same measurements. Same with 6'3" guys... not all are physical beasts. Strength varies from individual to individual.

 

[tomd]

Size and speed.

If you don't have one you better have the other. And great teams are built with players that have both.

 

[Golden_Jet]

In todays NHL skating is more important than size. The game is all about speed. The are a lot more defensemen in the 5'11-6'1 range which was considered too small at one time. Size still matters but its mostly in the playoffs when games get really tight and more physical. Although if you're 6'5 and lack speed or agility you will suffer.

Noah Dobson had a good regular season but his lack of speed and mobility really showed during the playoffs. However Bouchard who is only an inch shorter is doing great. It's all in the mechanics, agility and speed.

In another twist on the theory, Montour is only 6'0 but he plays a lot bigger than his size and he is a pretty good skater, although I wouldn't say his skating is elite compared to other D in the 6'0 range around the league.

Either way I don't think there will ever be a set formula that every team will copy. St Louis won the cup 5 years ago with a really big and heavy team. Tampa won 2 years in a row with no little guys besides Brayden Point who is an excellent player and also plays way bigger than his size, and Kucherov who also doesn't shy from tough play and has found a way to excel in the playoffs.

Avalanche won next but they have Makar who is a unicorn and he has no problems playing both ends of the ice even though he is on the smaller end. Elite mechanics, speed and agility. If anything Girard is the one who struggles a lot but they still like him enough to keep him, but he is shorter and more importantly slower than Makar. His IQ also a lacking which is another factor we haven't mentioned yet.

Then you have Vegas who is just big all around. Seems like there is no clear rule. If you can play, you can play.

Dahlin is 6'3 and a phenomenal skater who is extremely agile, but Moritz Seider is the same height yet struggles with agility in tight spaces.

Then we have the outlier Fox who is a terrible skater and very slow yet he has found a way to create offense through incredible IQ and stick work. However Foxes lack of speed and agility really shows when the playoffs start.

Anyway these are my opinions which I feel have been clearly validated. Hfboard homers, sorry if I offended you by not praising your player.

I didn’t recall Dahlin being a phenomenal skater, so had to check NHL edge site.

They don’t list the percentiles below 50%, maybe to save face with some players.

So Dahlin is below 50% percentile on top speed, and below 50% on 20 mph bursts.

He was high in a couple of other categories though.

Fyi Fox is also below 50% on the same 2 categories.

 

[Oak]

I didn’t recall Dahlin being a phenomenal skater, so had to check NHL edge site.

They don’t list the percentiles below 50%, maybe to save face with some players.

So Dahlin is below 50% percentile on top speed, and below 50% on 20 mph bursts.

He was high in a couple of other categories though.

Fyi Fox is also below 50% on the same 2 categories.

"Dahlin is 6'3 and a phenomenal skater who is extremely agile" is what I said.

Might be semantics here because you can have great edges and agility, or "movement in tight spaces" and not have elite speed but I will concede that maybe I am wrong about Dahlin because I don't watch him day in and day out.

I checked the site you mentioned and I'm not sure the stats you are quoting are what I am talking about when judging D with elite skating considering Colton Parayko and K'andre Miller are ranked top 10 in 20/22mph bursts.

Dahlin, for a big guy is noticeably more agile and shifty than a Dobson or Seider, and definitely a Miller and Parayko. Just from the eye test alone I'd say he can pick up speed faster than either of these guys, but like I said I dont watch him enough to argue the point. Either way his blue line movement is good enough to run a PP1 where at least 4 or 5 of the top 10 in your speed burst rankings I would not want running my PP1.

 

[devo09]

The players are bigger today and it is a big advantage. You can’t jusf look at the overall height/weight averages of a team without looking at standard deviation of the individual players.
Removing 1-2 “heavyweights” from each team (compared to what most teams carried 20 years ago) will make a significant impact on the averages on paper, but not in practicality.

 

[Fatass]

It could be I'm just looking at the wrong things but doesn't size matter much less than before?

Back when Karlsson first attracted attention, one of the biggest concerns about him was his size. Today, a lot of the top defensemen are of similar size. Makar, Fox, Hughes, and Morrissey just to name a few. I'm looking back at the top players in the 2000s or early 2010s, almost no defensemen besides Karlsson were that small. The top defensemen were Pronger, Niedermayer, Weber, Suter, Weber, Subban, Doughty, Chara, and Keith. Those on the smaller side were Karlsson and Lidstrom, but even then, Lidstrom was still 6'1" and 190 pounds. I use shorter than 6' and/or below 200 pounds for the cut-off.

I'm mainly focusing on defensemen because size was always seen as being almost mandatory to make an elite one. I don't recall when I last saw so many smaller players dominate the league. I don't think Cale Makar would have ever been drafted 4th back in 2005. His stature alone would have seen his stock plummet and teams would have considered him a PP specialist not worth wasting a top 5 pick over.

Any data to back this up or am I just biased because of the sample size and this is simply an anomaly that won't last?

Since skate and ice tech (and goalie equipment) dramatically improved heavier players have become more prevalent. Change back to old skates and soft ice and the heavier guys would again be rare.

 

[JAK]

Make the puck smaller by 5% to increase scoring.

 

[wintersej]

I think you're either an effective NHL player or you're not. Having a scrub 6'2" Dman in your top 4 isn't any more beneficial than having a scrub 5'10" guy there instead. Same with forwards. The game is physical but it's not like these players are mountains of men.

Size gets overblown. 5'8" Alex DeBrincat has the 3rd most goals and points from that 2016 Draft.

I’m not sure he is a great example since he is a complete PP merchant. Guys like Coyle and Frederic light the lamp as much as he does (more in fact over the last two seasons) at 5 on 5 play. Obviously PP goals and points count, too, but you only get a couple guys who can be focal points of a PP. Think it just adds to the point that you can have a few small skilled guys in proper roles, but not all roles can be filled with those guys…most of the roles in fact.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

Size doesn’t matter as much as if you’re willing to use it to your advantage. Tons of players have been drafted for their size, or not drafted/slipped because of it. But at the end of the day if you’re a six foot three defender that weights 230 pounds but don’t play physical your size means far less. I think the reason more smaller players are excelling is because they go to the places you wouldn’t expect and use skill, speed and smarts to make their size a minimal issue.

I say the biggest change aside from overall skill is speed.

This is right on the money

Short Torso to long leg length is an incredible advantage to possess as for skating abilities.

The more your weight is concentrated around your hips the better as well

Height is sure an advantage, lets not deny it, but physionomy goes unappreciated.

Hyperlaxity is a condition many goaltender "suffer" from. It give them incredible range of motion with the drawback to be injured more easily.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

Size doesn’t matter if the player is able to be a positive contributor. Whether that is as a scorer, speedy forechecker it’s easier for a smaller player to be a winger. So I’d say playing type matters as much.

Take Ryan McLeod it’s not a short player but he’s built like a wet noodle and physically battles like one too. There isn’t a player outside of Ceci I’d rather see fired into the sun.

Then you get guys like Garland. High energy and impactful. He didn’t even put up many points but he was noticeable in a positive manner in the games I viewed.

 

[Guess]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but out of the four remaining teams in the playoffs, three have two players under 6' and one has three. So yeah, size matters

 

[Killer Orcas]

I think size matters but with perspective. You can't just have talent less giants running running around or a team full of smurfs. As mentioned above by someone Dmen and Centre are the most important to have some size that can take hits. If you gonna have smaller guys it's more ideal they be wingers. As we all see every year smaller guys tend to wear down more in the playoffs when the physical game takes over.

 

[StreetHawk]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but out of the four remaining teams in the playoffs, three have two players under 6' and one has three. So yeah, size matters

Yep, from an individual standpoint, size doesn't matter.
But, from a Team POV, they will only carry so many smaller players. Maybe 2-3 forwards and 1 Dman at most for a total of 3-4 for most clubs.