Does Matthews play better without Marner?

[Mickey Marner]

I think they force the playmaker-sniper roles to the point where they can be predictable and static. I'd rather have them separate more often than not and keep the duo as a trump card that can be played selectively.

 

[WillyC]

I think Matthews and Bunting have been excellent on the top line… I’d swap Marner and Nylander.
15 91 16 on line 2

 

[BertCorbeau]

Meh, we played the same 6 teams on repeat last season, I don't put much stock into that offensive production. Muzzin/Holl looked like the top shutdown pair in the Canadian division and look at them this season against the rest of the league.

If you shut down one you shut down both, this is point and why people don't want to see them together anymore. Zero in on Marner who refuses to shoot and Matthews isn't getting near the puck. It's too predictable.

.. yet they keep producing. If you ignore his rocket year last season he has 72 goals in 104 games, which largely have been with Marner.

They’ve been one of, if not the, highest scoring duo’s in the league since being together. Great players get shut down from time to time. Doesn’t mean they have to blow up the lines.

I agree with situationally mixing it up depending on the game and in the playoffs when they’re faced with a specific series matchup and need to create a different look.

 

[DarkKnight]

No.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

No, but he plays better with Nylander.

And if Tavares is going to not be a playmaker at all anymore I’d rather Marner with him.

 

[Antropovsky]

.. yet they keep producing. If you ignore his rocket year last season he has 72 goals in 104 games, which largely have been with Marner.

They’ve been one of, if not the, highest scoring duo’s in the league since being together. Great players get shut down from time to time. Doesn’t mean they have to blow up the lines.

I agree with situationally mixing it up depending on the game and in the playoffs when they’re faced with a specific series matchup and need to create a different look.

Matthews had 37 goals in 68 games (and 73 points in 68 games) in 2019 playing 70% of the time with a combination of Johnsson, Marleau and Kapanen as linemates. Matthews was what 20-21 at the time? Naturally he should improve as he enters his prime and also if he's producing a 45 goal pace at 20 with those linemates, what would he score at 24 with any 1st line winger, let alone a 11 million dollar one. How many goals and points did matthews produce in Marners recent absence?

 

[Mess]

Marner needs Matthews far more than Matthews needs Marner. We saw when Marner was out what kind of torrid pace Matthews kept scoring at.

Case in point in Matthews last 14 games played in Dec and Jan he has 15 goals. You know the number of those that Marner has assisted on? Answer: 3

Game Log by Goal
Auston Matthews (25) (Power Play)- Assists: Mitchell Marner (16), Morgan Rielly (27)
Auston Matthews (24) - Assists: Michael Bunting (15), Jake Muzzin (10)
Auston Matthews (23) - Assists: Ondrej Kase (9), Michael Bunting (14)
Auston Matthews (22) - Assists: Alexander Kerfoot (18), Jake Muzzin (9)
Auston Matthews (21) - Assists: Morgan Rielly (24), Alexander Kerfoot (17)
Auston Matthews (20) - Assists: Ondrej Kase (7)
Auston Matthews (19) (Power Play)- Assists: Ondrej Kase (6), John Tavares (19)
Auston Matthews (18) (Power Play)- Assists: Ondrej Kase (5), William Nylander (17)
Auston Matthews (17) - Assists: Morgan Rielly (19)
Auston Matthews (16) - Assists: Michael Bunting (12), Morgan Rielly (17)
Auston Matthews (15) (Power Play)- Assists: William Nylander (14), John Tavares (15)
Auston Matthews (14) (Power Play)- Assists: Jason Spezza (4), Morgan Rielly (15)
Auston Matthews (13) - Assists: Jake Muzzin (7)
Auston Matthews (12) - Assists: Mitchell Marner (15), Michael Bunting (10)
Auston Matthews (11) - Assists: Mitchell Marner (14), Michael Bunting (9)

Auston Matthews (10) - Assists: Michael Bunting (8), T.J. Brodie (4)
Auston Matthews (9) - Assists: Timothy Liljegren (2), Michael Bunting (7)
Auston Matthews (8) - Assists: John Tavares (9), Michael Bunting (6)
Auston Matthews (7) (Power Play)- Assists: William Nylander (9), Morgan Rielly (10)
Auston Matthews (6) - Assists: William Nylander (8)
Auston Matthews (5) (Power Play)- Assists: Mitchell Marner (9), Morgan Rielly (8)
Auston Matthews (4) (Power Play)- Assists: Mitchell Marner (8)
Auston Matthews (3) - Assists: Mitchell Marner (4), Morgan Rielly (6)
Auston Matthews (2) (Power Play)- Assists: William Nylander (4), Morgan Rielly (5)
Auston Matthews (1) - Assists: Michael Bunting (2)

On the entire season Marner has 6 assists on Matthews 25 goals but only 3 at ES on the same line, and the 3 others came on the PP and had a very limited impact not really this dynamic duo some believe.

On the other hand Auston Matthews other winger Michael Bunting has assisted on 9 ES goals on the year. Even Dman Morgan Rielly has been in on 9 of Matthews goals.

 

[ACC1224]

Matthews is elite with whom ever he plays with, same with Marner.

 

[Puckstuff]

I thought Keefe had a major blind spot not breaking up Matthews-Marner during the playoffs when we clearly needed more balance. Matthews-Marner are good together but they are almost as good apart and can both run their own line. Personally I would have Matthews run his own line, Tavares-Marner together and I also think Nylander can run his own line with Kerfoot.

 

[Puckstuff]

Marner needs Matthews far more than Matthews needs Marner. We saw when Marner was out what kind of torrid pace Matthews kept scoring at.

Case in point in Matthews last 14 games played in Dec and Jan he has 15 goals. You know the number of those that Marner has assisted on? Answer: 3

Game Log by Goal
Auston Matthews (25) (Power Play)- Assists: Mitchell Marner (16), Morgan Rielly (27)
Auston Matthews (24) - Assists: Michael Bunting (15), Jake Muzzin (10)
Auston Matthews (23) - Assists: Ondrej Kase (9), Michael Bunting (14)
Auston Matthews (22) - Assists: Alexander Kerfoot (18), Jake Muzzin (9)
Auston Matthews (21) - Assists: Morgan Rielly (24), Alexander Kerfoot (17)
Auston Matthews (20) - Assists: Ondrej Kase (7)
Auston Matthews (19) (Power Play)- Assists: Ondrej Kase (6), John Tavares (19)
Auston Matthews (18) (Power Play)- Assists: Ondrej Kase (5), William Nylander (17)
Auston Matthews (17) - Assists: Morgan Rielly (19)
Auston Matthews (16) - Assists: Michael Bunting (12), Morgan Rielly (17)
Auston Matthews (15) (Power Play)- Assists: William Nylander (14), John Tavares (15)
Auston Matthews (14) (Power Play)- Assists: Jason Spezza (4), Morgan Rielly (15)
Auston Matthews (13) - Assists: Jake Muzzin (7)
Auston Matthews (12) - Assists: Mitchell Marner (15), Michael Bunting (10)
Auston Matthews (11) - Assists: Mitchell Marner (14), Michael Bunting (9)

Auston Matthews (10) - Assists: Michael Bunting (8), T.J. Brodie (4)
Auston Matthews (9) - Assists: Timothy Liljegren (2), Michael Bunting (7)
Auston Matthews (8) - Assists: John Tavares (9), Michael Bunting (6)
Auston Matthews (7) (Power Play)- Assists: William Nylander (9), Morgan Rielly (10)
Auston Matthews (6) - Assists: William Nylander (8)
Auston Matthews (5) (Power Play)- Assists: Mitchell Marner (9), Morgan Rielly (8)
Auston Matthews (4) (Power Play)- Assists: Mitchell Marner (8)
Auston Matthews (3) - Assists: Mitchell Marner (4), Morgan Rielly (6)
Auston Matthews (2) (Power Play)- Assists: William Nylander (4), Morgan Rielly (5)
Auston Matthews (1) - Assists: Michael Bunting (2)

On the entire season Marner has 6 assists on Matthews 25 goals but only 3 at ES on the same line, and the 3 others came on the PP and had a very limited impact not really this dynamic duo some believe.

On the other hand Auston Matthews other winger Michael Bunting has assisted on 9 ES goals on the year. Even Dman Morgan Rielly has been in on 9 of Matthews goals.

Marner put up a 94 point season without Matthews 5 on 5. I believe he played with Tavares for almost the whole year during his 94 point year. Both can run their own line.

 

[sparxx87]

… mike Babcock is that you?

Whoever said it, they’re right. Crunch all your bullshit numbers, in real life it’s about creating advantages and the Maple Leafs are a much harder team to matchup against when Matthews has a shooter and Marner can feast against second units.

This has been obvious from the beginning whether you like Babcock or not. Not sure if Keefe has an agenda, or he’s actually even dumber than he comes across. Some suggest his puppeteer wants Marner with Matthews to inflate his numbers and try to justify that horrific contract. That seems crazy but Dubas has done even dumber and more selfish things in his short tenure so it’s entirely possible.

 

[Mess]

Marner put up a 94 point season without Matthews 5 on 5. I believe he played with Tavares for almost the whole year during his 94 point year. Both can run their own line.

That is true Marner did put up 94 points and didn't play with Matthews other than on the PP that year.

However Tavares is a #1C and making $11 mil himself, as such saying Marner can run his own line (which I don't necessarily disagree with), but using this as an example that would qualify as driving his own line might not be the best example.

I have suggested Leafs should put Marner on his own line and in fact put 1 X $11 mil on each of their own to create a strong top 9 forwards of 3 lines.

But as long as Marner is riding shotgun with either Matthews or Tavares he isn't considered self sufficient in my eyes. That be like taking a winger on the Pens who was excelling with Crosby and putting him on line with Malkin instead with similar results and claiming that the winger is carrying whatever line he is on independently.

 

[notbias]

That is true Marner did put up 94 points and didn't play with Matthews other than on the PP that year.

However Tavares is a #1C and making $11 mil himself, as so saying Marner can run his own line (which I don't necessarily disagree with) but using this as an example that would qualify other as driving his own line might not be the best example.

I have suggested Leafs should put Marner on his own line and in fact put 1 X $11 mil on each of their own to create a strong top 9 forwards of 3 lines.

But as long as Marner is riding shotgun with either Matthews or Tavares he isn't considered self sufficient in my eyes. That be like taking a winger on the Pens who was excelling with Crosby and putting him on line with Malkin instead with similar results and claiming that the winger is carrying whatever line he is on independently.

Marner can drive his own line, he did it with players before Matthews and Tavares, with Kadri/Marleau he paced for over 90 points I believe.

Do you really think throwing Marner on the 3rd line with Kampf/Mikheyev and giving them like 80% DZone starts is going to be good for the team?

Why is money all you care about?
Is the glass every half full for you?

 

[Rob Brown]

LOL these were Marner's stats plying the year on JT's wing

82GP

26G

68A

94Pts

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Which is why it's a bit surprising they won't just put them together full time again.

 

[TMLAM34]

The Leafs just need to trade Marner for multiple pieces in the summer.

 

[Zybalto]

Had this in another thread so I'll repost and add a bit:

Since Keefe came on board, here is how Matthews has done with and without Marner:

Matthews with Marner 5v5:
TOI: 1476:27
CF%: 55.38
SF%: 56.71
SCF%: 61.08
HDCF%: 63.07
xGF%: 61.40
GF%: 62.64

Goals For/60: 3.6
Goals Against/60: 2.15

Matthews without Marner 5v5:
TOI: 749:04
CF%: 54.99
SF%: 54.67
SCF%: 56.58
HDCF%: 57.25
xGF%: 56.15
GF%: 56.06

Goals For/60: 2.81
Goals Against/60: 2.2


With Nylander and Tavares making an excellent 2nd line, Theres no statistical, team depth or really any reason to break them up right now. Not even sure why it's being talked about TBH. If the team was actually floundering, sure lets juggle, but they are one of the best teams in the league and the Bunting/Matthews/Marner line is one of the best in the league. If anyone has a concrete reason why they shouldnt be together, fire away, but the whole notion just looks silly atm.

 

[Zybalto]

Over the same time period:

Nylander with Tavares:
xGF%: 58.07
GF%: 54.72

Goals For/60: 2.98
Goals Against/60: 2.47


Nylander without Tavares:
xGF%: 55.05
GF%: 49.85

Goals For/60: 2.42
Goals Against/60: 2.43

I don't think I want the current 2nd line touched either.

 

[Zybalto]

The fact the Tavares/Nylander line scores more goals than Matthews lines without Marner is interesting.