Does Crosby have the best international resume ever?

[MadLuke]

Lindros got the C solely because his club GM was also the GM of Team Canada at the time.

If they wanted to do some kind of passing of the torch thing, Sakic would've been the much better option and he was 27 at the time and had lead his team to a championship. Even Yzerman, who had captained his team for a decade at that point and at 32 still had lots to give.

I think that was a necessary condition but not solely, if the more Sather oilers based 1996 team Canada win, even if they go with Clarke, maybe Gretzky keep the C, Messier is there, etc...

It was probably under some line of the way the 1996 team was built&played was thought to be the reason they lost and part of what I am doing with the 1998 team is a change of identity and one of the very few limited tool I have in my toolkit (not being the coach himself) is who I pick as the captain.

Sakic-Yzerman could have sent a passing of the torch signal, but do nothing for changing its identity.

The Scotty Bowman top 100 Canadians of all time ranking comes to mind.

Are you suggesting the journalist made up that list, that it was not really from Bowman ? Because if you mean people took what he said as gospel, I do not remember a single person that shifted their view and started to say Richard > Gretzky or Keon > Bourque after reading it.... just that it was an interesting point of view to have.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

How about Team Canada in 2014? Feels like there has to be a few teams that did better than score 17 goals in 6 games and only 2 goals a game in the playoffs and yet that was arguably the most dominant Olympic Gold medalist of all-time with Crosby being the captain and centrepiece. He was Canada's best player over the last two games. The strategy was all about puck possession and it was Crosby who set the tone for team as Captain.

You can say the same about the 2016 Pens; one of the most dominant Cup winners by playing a puck possession game with Crosby being the centrepiece.

As for the OP, Team Canada has been undefeated under his watch; what more could you ask for? He should be recognized as one of the sport's all-time great "winners".

Fancy seeing you here.

It was mainly a teasing remark, I do love Crosby.

 

[MadLuke]

If we go back to the original comments, say if Cooper imagine captan Crosby team Canada winning this and the upcoming Olympics in Italy, say he does well for his age again in the win.

Greatest could be a conversation (Gretzky being the best at it) could start, if the winning streak does not stop.

The team sport and a team sport with such a noisy quality of competition making it hard, it is not like Crosby team Canada could go undefeated for long against the soviets teams of the 80s. But we leave in a world where greatness and winning even in team sport are quite correlated and there are worse things to take into account.

 

[wetcoast]

I think that was a necessary condition but not solely, if the more Sather oilers based 1996 team Canada win, even if they go with Clarke, maybe Gretzky keep the C, Messier is there, etc...

It was probably under some line of the way the 1996 team was built-played is the reason they lost and part of what I am doing with the 1998 team is a change of identity and one of the very few limited tool I have in my toolkit (not the coach himself) is who I pick as the captain.

Sakic-Yzerman could have sent a passing of the torch signal, do nothing for changing its identity.

Are you suggesting the journalist made up that list, that it was not really from Bowman ? Because if you mean people took what he said as gospel, I do not remember a single person that shifted their view and started to say Richard > Gretzky or Keon > Bourque after reading it.... just that it was an interesting point of view to have.

No it's Bowman's list forsure.

My point is that if someone came to this section from the main boards with such a list they would get ridiculed.

There is a thread on it around here and many of the comments are somewhat eye opening.

found it here.

Thread 'Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players'

Nov 28, 2012

From a special edition of Hockey Le Magazine. 9 other lists from longtime coaches, referees, and media members were also included. But I think Bowman's is the most interesting, considering his stature in the hockey world.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23...

• overpass
• Replies: 452
• Forum: The History of Hockey

The secondary point was that sometimes quotes are very well received and at other times not and I get that everyone has certain biases and quirks but inconsistency in applying them just isn't a super solid foundation and tends to be overused for certain players and then not others.

 

[sr edler]

2010 in Vancouver he was essentially just a face in the crowd on that team, who happened to score the TWG. Toews was an overall more impactful guy that tourney, for Canada.

 

[MadLuke]

There is a thread on it around here and many of the comments are somewhat eye opening.

Yes, but not a single member took it by gospel far from it, not even Bowman himself (with some ask me the same question another day the top 4 order will be different type of comments)

2010 in Vancouver he was essentially just a face in the crowd on that team

In a way, we cannot even phantom prime 22 years old healthy Gretzky doing.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes, but not a single member took it by gospel far from it, not even Bowman himself (with some ask me the same question another day the top 4 order will be different type of comments)

Sure that's fair but there was an awful lot of deference to that list given the name attached which is part of my point.


I also think the more interesting question will be if Crosby has a great performance and McDavid doesn't have as great as one and if Connor also never wins a SC how each players legacy will look in 15 years.

I'm not a SC counter and frankly think that McDavid's performance last year was impactful enough even if he never wins a sC but I've been around the block and have seen the arguments.

 

[MadLuke]

Sure that's fair but there was an awful lot of deference to that list given the name attached which is part of my point.

Yes, which is expected coming from people that never saw even on video some of the players mentioned, how could you not be deferential of someone that not only know way more the subject than you, but was there and you were not (not even in video)... and talked 1:1 with the expert that saw them for the older than him era players.

Respect without the submission part would be more my feeling to it.

 

[daver]

2010 in Vancouver he was essentially just a face in the crowd on that team, who happened to score the TWG. Toews was an overall more impactful guy that tourney, for Canada.

He was T2nd in scoring on the team, had the shootout winner vs. the Swiss and a key goal against the US in the prelims to get them close. Toews playing great for his age vs. Crosby not meeting expectations of big point totals doesn't mean he was more impactful. It doesn't get more impactful than a Golden Goal. I would argue that he was under an extreme amount of pressure in that OT as he missed a chance to ice it late in the 3rd. He would have taken most, if not all, of the criticism if Canada lost that game.

That being said, Crosby's overall legacy should be boosted by effectively matching his NHL resume; being the best player, and leading scorer, over the course winning of three major intl. championships.

Besides being a Top 10 talent all-time, he is among the best leaders/winners all-time.

 

[Batis]

Makarov was the best player overall of the three Canada Cups of the 1980s combined. The most consistently excellent player.

Gretzky was a little underwhelming in both '81 and '84, although he wasn't 100% healthy in either. Excellent in '87.

Fetisov missed the '84 tournament - there's a good chance they would've won in '84 if he were playing.

Bossy and Langway were both excellent in both '81 and '84, and obviously Lemieux in '87.

Krutov very good in all three, a bit behind Makarov though.

Perreault in '81 before the injury.

Khomutov was coming on in '87, and became a force around that time.

Coffey, Bourque, Kasatonov. Bourque was a bit underwhelming overall, but very good.

While I am not sure that I personally would rank Makarov ahead of Gretzky as the best Canada Cup performer of the 80's I agree that a case can be made for it.

What I consider to be one of the most impressive stats of Makarov's Canada Cup career is that he during the 18 games that are available on video was in on as many shorthanded goals forward as he was in on powerplay goals against while being one of the most used Soviet forwards on the penalty kill during each of those 3 Canada Cup tournaments.

This becomes even more impressive when taking into account that the opponent in 8 of those 18 games was best-on-best Team Canada with powerplay units such as Gretzky, Trottier, Bossy, Lafleur and Potvin (1981 Canada Cup) and Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Bourque and Coffey (1987 Canada Cup).

Shorthanded goal differential for Soviet forwards in Canada Cup games during the 80's (among players with 10+ minutes of shorthanded ice time)

1. Sergei Makarov: +-0 (5 gf, 5 ga) over 32 minutes and 43 seconds of shorthanded ice time
2. Irek Gimaev*: +-0 (0 gf, 0 ga) over 11 minutes and 37 seconds of shorthanded ice time
3. Vladimir Krutov: -1 (5 gf, 6 ga) over 32 minutes and 53 seconds of shorthanded ice time
4. Anatoli Semenov: -1 (1 gf, 2 ga) over 20 minutes and 22 seconds of shorthanded ice time
5. Vyacheslav Bykov: -1 (0 gf, 1 ga) over 18 minutes and 48 seconds of shorthanded ice time
6. Andrei Khomutov: -1 (0 gf, 1 ga) over 17 minutes and 26 seconds
7. Sergei Svetlov: -1 (1 gf, 2 ga) over 13 minutes and 14 seconds of shorthanded ice time
8. Alexander Skvortsov: -1 (0 gf, 1 ga) over 12 minutes and 9 seconds of shorthanded ice time

* In the 1981 Canada Cup Gimaev played the forward position. In the 1984 Canada Cup Gimaev played both the defence and forward position on the penalty kill. I still included him here and these are his combined stats from both positions.

When we combine Makarov's penalty killing excellence with him being the second highest scorer (31 pts in 22 gp) in the Canada Cup tournaments of the 80's behind only Wayne Gretzky (45 pts in 24 gp) it is clear that we are talking about one of the greatest best-on-best tournament performers of all time.

 

[kaiser matias]

He was T2nd in scoring on the team, had the shootout winner vs. the Swiss and a key goal against the US in the prelims to get them close. Toews playing great for his age vs. Crosby not meeting expectations of big point totals doesn't mean he was more impactful. It doesn't get more impactful than a Golden Goal. I would argue that he was under an extreme amount of pressure in that OT as he missed a chance to ice it late in the 3rd. He would have taken most, if not all, of the criticism if Canada lost that game.

That being said, Crosby's overall legacy should be boosted by effectively matching his NHL resume; being the best player, and leading scorer, over the course winning of three major intl. championships.

Besides being a Top 10 talent all-time, he is among the best leaders/winners all-time.

I feel Luongo would get a lot of criticism if Canada lost that game. Giving up the tying goal in the last minute then losing in OT would have been rough. Add in what he did in 2011 (and 2009 and 2010) and it would only compound.

 

[FissionFire]

4 Nations I’d argue isn’t a best-on-best format considering Russia’s exclusion. Any international tournament since their ban really isn’t a best-on-best. It’s like excluding Canada from a tournament and trying to still call it a best-on-best format.

 

[Voight]

I think that was a necessary condition but not solely, if the more Sather oilers based 1996 team Canada win, even if they go with Clarke, maybe Gretzky keep the C, Messier is there, etc...

It was probably under some line of the way the 1996 team was built-played is the reason they lost and part of what I am doing with the 1998 team is a change of identity and one of the very few limited tool I have in my toolkit (not the coach himself) is who I pick as the captain.

Sakic-Yzerman could have sent a passing of the torch signal, do nothing for changing its identity.


Are you suggesting the journalist made up that list, that it was not really from Bowman ? Because if you mean people took what he said as gospel, I do not remember a single person that shifted their view and started to say Richard > Gretzky or Keon > Bourque after reading it.... just that it was an interesting point of view to have.

There is no other reason why Lindros would be chosen as captain over the likes of Gretzky, Sakic, Yzerman, Stevens, Bourque .

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

4 Nations I’d argue isn’t a best-on-best format considering Russia’s exclusion. Any international tournament since their ban really isn’t a best-on-best. It’s like excluding Canada from a tournament and trying to still call it a best-on-best format.

Alright!