Do You Think The Oilers Have Done Enough To Help McDrai Win The Cup?

[koyvoo]

Been saying it for years. Having that sort of high end talent and banking on the diet of goaltending they have is inexcusable and generally insane.

A halfway better goalie than Skinner and they have a 2024 cup banner in the rafters.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Not really. If they had, they'd have a cup.

 

[nowhereman]

Lolol in what world did the pens have less??

Ill wait.

Crosby was groomed the proper way also wheen he came into the league. The vets he had around him his first year or so, living with lemeuix. Guy had every corner covered to go with his talent

lollol, indeed.

The first year the Penguins won the Cup with Crosby and Malkin in 2009, the two of them doubled the production of their 3rd and 4th highest scoring players: Ruslan Fedetenko and a 38 year old Bill Guerin. Jordan Staal (who was still only 20 years old) helped compliment a strong center spine and Chris Kunitz was a serviceable second-line-quality winger but the rest of the team was mostly composed of bottom of the line-up journeymen like Tyler Kennedy, Maxime Talbot, Matt Cooke and Craig Adams. On the back end, Gonchar was still a decent low-end #1D but the rest of the group was made up of mostly average stock guys: Brooks Orpik, Alex Goligoski, Rob Scuderi, Mark Eaton and sophomore Letang who wasn't even cracking 20 minutes a night. MAF put in a good effort but was just over a .900 save percentage.

I don't care if Crosby lived in Lemieux's basement. Anyone who takes an objective look at that 2009 Penguins team cannot make any sort of claim that they are superior to last/this year's Oiler squad. And Sid and Geno also went on to win another Cup with Brian Dumoulin and Ron Hainsey logging top-pairing minutes with Letang injured. No other pairing of superstars has won more with less than those two.

A lot goes into winning a Cup and McDavid/Draisaitl have done enough on their part. They aren't any better or worse for not having sealed the deal. But continually using their team/management as an excuse is just getting old.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Been saying it for years. Having that sort of high end talent and banking on the diet of goaltending they have is inexcusable and generally insane.

A halfway better goalie than Skinner and they have a 2024 cup banner in the rafters.

2023 as well. It's baffling how fanatically loyal many Edmonton fans are to Skinner, regardless of how hard and often he's dropped the ball and the obvious fact that we'd have one or two cups with a league average goalie in 2023 or last year.

The biggest argument of his supporters is that the Oilers can't afford one...yet Vegas won the Cup and beat the Oilers with a league minimum Adin Hill. Jordin Binnington was pretty inexpensive at the same, so was Matt Murray...

The best summary of Skinner is when he had that amazing shutout against Boston where he stood on his head, and then let in four of the first 8 shots the very next game. Yet these Skinner fans will bring up his amazing performance and conveniently forget how often he's let in bad goals and totally collapsed early in a game. Oh, and his supposed clutch performance last playoffs was arguably the worst statistical performance of any goalie ever to make it to a Stanley Cup Final... But hey, remember that one game against Dallas?

Another argument is that the Oilers have a terrible record with goaltending and a moron goalie coach, both are true, but give me the same Mike Smith the Oilers had in 2022, and even he outperforms Skinner in 2023 and 2024...

 

[nbwingsfan]

Completely disagree. McDavid didn't have any points in game 6, and all his points in game 4 were after the team already had a 2-goal lead, the only thing they did was run up the score.

That said, imo he won game 5 pretty much by himself, and he should be commended for that. But if the Oilers hadn't previously won game 7 against the Canucks (without his help on the scoresheet), as well as game 6 in the SCF (again without his help on the scoresheet), and game 4 in the SCF (with his help but after the game was already well in hand), they wouldn't have got to a game seven either.

***

To be clear: I'm not trolling McDavid, I think he's undeniably an amazing offensive player. But, as a neutral, I think this idea that he and Drai are 100% carrying the Oilers offensively is very dumb -- and the more I look into this the more wrong this narrative actually is.

The Oilers are a deep offensive team led by arguably the best offensive player of this generation. But that roster, at least offensively is very, VERY deep -- this year they have Jeff Skinner, Adam Henrique, and Zack Hyman on their 3rd line, that's at least an average 2nd line on most teams. Multiple people in this thread have said or implied some version of, "Oilers scoring depth is shit" and in my opinion (after looking into this) nothing could be more wrong

You mean Jeff skinner who has 15pts in 40 games?

Hyman is struggling as well with only 25 in 38

Henrique in with 13pts?

What exactly do you think the average second line produces

 

[MessierThanThou]

lollol, indeed.

The first year the Penguins won the Cup with Crosby and Malkin in 2009, the two of them doubled the production of their 3rd and 4th highest scoring players: Ruslan Fedetenko and a 38 year old Bill Guerin. Jordan Staal (who was still only 20 years old) helped compliment a strong center spine and Chris Kunitz was a serviceable second-line-quality winger but the rest of the team was mostly composed of bottom of the line-up journeymen like Tyler Kennedy, Maxime Talbot, Matt Cooke and Craig Adams. On the back end, Gonchar was still a decent low-end #1D but the rest of the group was made up of mostly average stock guys: Brooks Orpik, Alex Goligoski, Rob Scuderi, Mark Eaton and sophomore Letang who wasn't even cracking 20 minutes a night. MAF put in a good effort but was just over a .900 save percentage.

I don't care if Crosby lived in Lemieux's basement. Anyone who takes an objective look at that 2009 Penguins team cannot make any sort of claim that they are superior to last/this year's Oiler squad. And Sid and Geno also went on to win another Cup with Brian Dumoulin and Ron Hainsey logging top-pairing minutes with Letang injured. No other pairing of superstars has won more with less than those two.

A lot goes into winning a Cup and McDavid/Draisaitl have done enough on their part. They aren't any better or worse for not having sealed the deal. But continually using their team/management as an excuse is just getting old.

I don't think Skinner gets enough blame for the Oilers losing the last two postseasons. He wasn't just bad in the playoffs, he was historically bad for any goalie who ever made it that far!

The postseason before that he was outplayed by a guy who isn't even good enough to be a backup...yet the coach stubbornly played him to the team's demise. No chance Malkin or Crosby win a cup with the goaltending Skinner has provided over the previous two postseasons.

 

[MessierThanThou]

What a waste of a career. Being a lock for the Hall of Fame, winning a trophy room’s full of awards, contending nearly every year of his career, and being paid the highest player in the League in both salary and endorsements.

Would have been much better off in Buffalo or Arizona. The two teams closest to drafting McDavid instead.

And from this response it's abundantly clear that you don't really care if "your team" actually wins a cup with McDavid.

 

[TheNumber4]

And from this response it's abundantly clear that you don't really care if "your team" actually wins a cup with McDavid.

My comment was sarcasm you know right?

 

[MessierThanThou]

Foegele and Mcleod were complete nothings in the playoffs. In Foegele's case, worse than nothing, he actively hurt the Oilers this past playoffs. 3 Years in a row now for Foegele being complete shit in the playoffs by the way. He could score 100 pts in LA and I wouldn't want him back. Ceci and his 3.25M has been effectively replaced by Emberson at 950K, literally no big loss there. Desharnais was a healthy scratch in the playoffs, he was good in a 3rd pair role but replaceable and has been. Our 3rd pair doesn't miss him.

Unbelievable take.

So, in the FINALS, Foegele had 4 points in all three of the Oilers comeback wins... In the FINALS, Foegele finished second in scoring to only McDavid on the Oilers.

You know, there's a reason some sports leagues only award a FINALS MVP...

2024 NHL Stanley Cup Final: EDM vs. FLA | Hockey-Reference.com

2024 NHL Stanley Cup Final: EDM vs. FLA

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[TheNumber4]

Unbelievable take.

So, in the FINALS, Foegele had 4 points in all three of the Oilers comeback wins... In the FINALS, Foegele finished second in scoring to only McDavid on the Oilers.

You know, there's a reason some sports leagues only award a FINALS MVP...

2024 NHL Stanley Cup Final: EDM vs. FLA | Hockey-Reference.com

2024 NHL Stanley Cup Final: EDM vs. FLA

www.hockey-reference.com

46 PLAYOFF GAMES this guy played for us. I'm supposed to be impressed that he had 3 OKAY games for?

Woopty doo, he had the 2ND ASSIST on the 8th Goal in an 8-1 drubbing in one of his "good games". And 2 decent other showings.

You know what else he did in the finals, take a dumb penalty in Game 7 leading to the first goal against. Know what else he did in the most recent playoff run? Hurt us with dumb turnovers and completely ineffective play, the same ineffective play he brought through TWO full playoff runs. He was a complete ghost at best, and when he wasn't doing that he was hurting us.

There's a reason there was ZERO talk about bringing Foegele back. Even though we had the money for it, Arviddson/Skinners contract could have easily been offered to Foegele.

 

[MessierThanThou]

46 PLAYOFF GAMES this guy played for us. I'm supposed to be impressed that he had 3 OKAY games for?

Woopty doo, he had the 2ND ASSIST on the 8th Goal in an 8-1 drubbing in one of his "good games". And 2 decent other showings.

You know what else he did in the finals, take a dumb penalty in Game 7 leading to the first goal against. Know what else he did in the most recent playoff run? Hurt us with dumb turnovers and completely ineffective play, the same ineffective play he brought through TWO full playoff runs. He was a complete ghost at best, and when he wasn't doing that he was hurting us.

There's a reason there was ZERO talk about bringing Foegele back. Even though we had the money for it, Arviddson/Skinners contract could have easily been offered to Foegele.

True, our genius management didn't think Foegele, who currently has more points and a higher points-per-game than either of the two washed-up bums they signed (Arvidsson and Skinner), was deserving of that contract. They also didn't think Dylan Holloway was worth $2 million and he's also vastly outplaying those guys...

Forgive me for having zero faith in the management of an organization that has had two generational players for ten seasons and somehow can't win a Cup, in part because they hired one senior citizen GM whose best days were a decade behind him and relied heavily on his idiot son's armchair analytics, who replaced possibly the worst GM in league history in Chiarelli (neck and neck with Milbury), and have the worst scouting, coaching, and overall track record for goaltending of any team in the league since the mid-2000s...

 

[TheNumber4]

True, our genius management didn't think Foegele, who currently has more points and a higher points-per-game than either of the two washed-up bums they signed (Arvidsson and Skinner), was deserving of that contract. They also didn't think Dylan Holloway was worth $2 million and he's also vastly outplaying those three...

Go pray at the alter of Foegele then, the dude who signed with our divisional rival and the dude who's GF threw shade at living in Edmonton. #LOILTY right? I don't give a shit what he does in the regular season, when push comes to shove he will disappear as he always does in the playoffs. That's a player you do not give a 4th year in a row chance to.

Hilarious you think Arvidsson is a washed up bum though, he had a slow start to the season as did the whole team after the Cup hangover. He now has 13 pts in his last 20 games, Foegele has 12 pts in his last 20 games. I'll take my chances with Arviddson for the rest of the year and in the playoffs, 10 pts in 11GP for his last 2 playoffs by the way compared to Foegele's 11 pts in 34GP for his last 2 playoffs, 12pts in 47GP if you go back 3 playoffs, all the playoffs he was an Oiler.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Go pray at the alter of Foegele then, the dude who signed with our divisional rival and the dude who's GF threw shade at living in Edmonton. #LOILTY right? I don't give a shit what he does in the regular season, when push comes to shove he will disappear as he always does in the playoffs. That's a player you do not give a 4th year in a row chance to.

Again, where was the rest of the team other than McDavid in the Finals? Yes, Foegele f***ed up, but he had points in the most important series of all, and more than in just that 8-1 win, but in EACH of the three games the Oilers actually won against Florida... I think I can forgive his previous futility, since he's still in his 20s and clearly improving every season as a player, unlike Arvidsson.

Hilarious you think Arvidsson is a washed up bum though, he had a slow start to the season as did the whole team after the Cup hangover. He now has 13 pts in his last 20 games, Foegele has 12 pts in his last 20 games. I'll take my chances with Arviddson for the rest of the year and in the playoffs, 10 pts in 11GP for his last 2 playoffs by the way compared to Foegele's 11 pts in 34GP for his last 2 playoffs, 12pts in 47GP if you go back 3 playoffs, all the playoffs he was an Oiler.

So Foegele has just one fewer point than Arvidsson in that span, playing with Quentin Byfield and Tanner Jeannot...while Arvidsson is riding shotgun to second-in-league scoring Draisaitl?

Furthermore...Foegele has more points than either of his linemates, so he's probably driving the offense on that line.

Not to mention that Foegele is bigger, stronger, faster (did I mention three years younger?) and less plagued by injuries, and comes in at half a million less per season than Arvidsson...

 

[TheNumber4]

Again, where was the rest of the team other than McDavid in the Finals? Yes, Foegele f***ed up, but he had points in the most important series of all, and more than in just that 8-1 win, but in EACH of the three games the Oilers actually won against Florida... I think I can forgive his previous futility, since he's still in his 20s and clearly improving every season as a player, unlike Arvidsson.

So Foegele has just one fewer point than Arvidsson in that span, playing with Quentin Byfield and Tanner Jeannot...while Arvidsson is riding shotgun to second-in-league scoring Draisaitl?

Furthermore...Foegele has more points than either of his linemates, so he's probably driving the offense on that line.

Not to mention that Foegele is bigger, faster, and less plagued by injuries, and comes in at half a million less per season...

Even McDavid or Drai you can argue no-showed in Games 6-7. I don't like picking small samples for evaluation though, it makes no sense. Why are we talking about a 7 game stretch when we have like 25 games to go off of in determining player contributions in last years playoffs? Or in the case of Foegele like 46 games of playoffs? You might be willing to excuse it, I'm not, and neither did the Oilers management who gave Foegele his shot and he blew it, and they decided to move on.

I mean Kings fans will tell you Byfield is probably their future, and best center. Top 6 minutes for Foegele should explain his rise in production.

Guess what, Arviddsson put up 15 pts in 18GP last year on that same squad. A pace Foegele will never touch. Like I said earlier, Arviddsson had a slow start to the year cause the Oilers had a slow start to the year. Guess who didn't have a slow start to the year and has been firing on all cylinders from the beginning? The Kings. The Oilers new acquisitions usually also have a slow start in general, something in the water type things, lets see how the rest of the year goes.

The injury concern is a valid for Arviddson though of course. But we'll see, he's looking plenty healthy these days and is contributing. Foegele is all those things, big, fast, and durable. But he's also got the YIPS and his hands fail him and his head fails him when shit gets tough. I think people are sleeping on Arviddson, give him time and he will surprise you.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Even McDavid or Drai you can argue no-showed in Games 6-7. I don't like picking small samples for evaluation though, it makes no sense. Why are we talking about a 7 game stretch when we have like 25 games to go off of in determining player contributions in last years playoffs? Or in the case of Foegele like 46 games of playoffs? You might be willing to excuse it, I'm not, and neither did the Oilers management who gave Foegele his shot and he blew it, and they decided to move on.

I mean Kings fans will tell you Byfield is probably their future, and best center. Top 6 minutes for Foegele should explain his rise in production.

Again, Foegele is clearly improving every season. His production is getting better year after year, and during his most recent stretch of games in the playoffs he found his scoring touch, which seems to have continued into this season. Arvidsson peaked earlier, where as it seems that there is more to come for Foegele offensively. His ice time is increasing, his points are increasing, and he's in the top six of a team that currently has a better record than the Oilers.

Anze Kopitar is still with the team and still one of their best players, so I don't think anyone is calling Byfield LA's best Centre. He's 8th in team scoring and on pace for 40 points... Foegele has three more points, two more goals, and is +19 (second on the team) and well ahead of Byfield's +7.

Obviously I hope you're right about Arvidsson, and I'm glad he's scoring more, but I also see Foegele joining the list of Ryan Strome, Miro Satan, Ray Whitney...Dylan Holloway, and many others who the team gave up on too quickly.

Guess what, Arviddsson put up 15 pts in 18GP last year on that same squad. A pace Foegele will never touch. Like I said earlier, Arviddsson had a slow start to the year cause the Oilers had a slow start to the year. Guess who didn't have a slow start to the year and has been firing on all cylinders from the beginning? The Kings. The Oilers new acquisitions usually also have a slow start in general, something in the water type things, lets see how the rest of the year goes.

The injury concern is a valid for Arviddson though of course. But we'll see, he's looking plenty healthy these days and is contributing. Foegele is all those things, big, fast, and durable. But he's also got the YIPS and his hands fail him and his head fails him when shit gets tough. I think people are sleeping on Arviddson, give him time and he will surprise you.

Even removing Arvidsson from the equation, I still wish we signed Foegele and/or Holloway over Perry or Jeff Skinner. Perry will be a healthy scratch come playoff time and Skinner already is.

EDIT: I found this article with some quotes on Foegele's impact on the team (though it is almost a month old):

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/los-angeles-kings/game-day/kings-warren-foegele-key-to-quinton-byfields-transition

"When away from Byfield, Foegele carries a 60.24% Corsi, outshooting opponents while he's on the ice 97-50, an almost two-to-one margin. On top of this, the team outscores opponents 9-1 while he's away from Byfield. It would appear that the team's play dips when the two are paired together.

That's not to say the pairing is poor, as they've done well together. It is more indicative of Foegele impact on the team in a holistic manner and might be starting to take hold of Byfield as the two continue to grow their chemistry."

 

[TheNumber4]

Again, Foegele is clearly improving every season. His production is getting better year after year, and during his most recent stretch of games in the playoffs he found his scoring touch, which seems to have continued into this season. Arvidsson peaked earlier, where as it seems that there is more to come for Foegele offensively. His ice time is increasing, his points are increasing, and he's in the top six of a team that currently has a better record than the Oilers.

Anze Kopitar is still with the team and still one of their best players, so I don't think anyone is calling Byfield LA's best Centre. He's 8th in team scoring and on pace for 40 points... Foegele has three more points, two more goals, and is +19 (second on the team) and well ahead of Byfield's +7.

Obviously I hope you're right about Arvidsson, and I'm glad he's scoring more, but I also see Foegele joining the list of Ryan Strome, Miro Satan, Ray Whitney...Dylan Holloway, and many others who the team gave up on too quickly.



Even removing Arvidsson from the equation, I still wish we signed Foegele and/or Holloway over Perry or Jeff Skinner. Perry will be a healthy scratch come playoff time and Skinner already is.

He was on a slow upward trend with the Oilers. He's likely still uptrending, but again Top 6 minutes in LA might take some shine off the pace of that trend. The Oilers aren't the only team that decided he wasn't a Top 6 player, Carolina made that same evaluation earlier in his career. Foegele was brought in and told "K here's 2.75M and 3 years, show us your a top 6 player". Time with Drai that never lasted. Time with McDavid that never lasted. Playoffs of worse than replacement level production for most of it. Maybe at the ripe age of 28 he's finally a real deal Top 6 guy, but usually those skill evaluations are made much earlier in forwards careers. I say all this, and it's not like I disliked Foegele the regular season player, I was a fan and hopeful for him all 3 years here. Every playoffs I said, this is the year Foegele makes an impact and every year I was disappointed. I'm just saying with 3 playoffs under his belt, with either non-impact or negative impact in those games, it was time to look at someone else.

I don't disagree with you on Holloway though. I've said and always maintained we resign him. I don't think that needed to come at the expense of Perry who's 14 Pts playing a 4th line role has been great value for us. But of course there's no argument against Holloway over Skinner at this point.

 

[PainForShane]

You mean Jeff skinner who has 15pts in 40 games?

Hyman is struggling as well with only 25 in 38

Henrique in with 13pts?

What exactly do you think the average second line produces

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

Please find another bottom six player who has 25 points while also having 50+ goals the previous year. And this player needs to have a linemate (who's also in the bottom six) who's scored 30+ goals twice in the last three years. And this 3rd line needs to be centered by a well-respected, 200 ft veteran who scores around 20 goals most years. Good luck!