Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time | Page 38 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time

In fairness to MJ, there's been research showing that secondary assists, on average, are worth less than goals and primary assists. Here's a study I did in 2019.

My best estimate is a secondary assist is worth around 0.66 primary points. There's another study floating around that argues that secondary assists are worth significantly less, but the author didn't do any calculations (it was just based on his qualitative comments on a few graphs).

Crosby has outscored Ovechkin by 64 points over the course of their careers. Ovechkin is ahead 1,342 - 1,279 in primary points, and Crosby is ahead 408 - 281 in secondary assists. Crosby is still ahead if we value secondary assists as 0.65 primary points, but it's much closer (1,548 to 1,527).

It is well established that forwards who get the most #1 assists also get the most #2 assists. Since 20/21, here are the Top 5 primary assist leaders (with their placement in secondary assists):

1. McDavid (#1)
2. MacKinnon (#3)
3. Panarin (#5)
4. Kucherov (#4)
5. Marner (#6)

To place an asterix on 2nd assists (or remove them altogether) as an indicator of less value and/or less indicative of a player's playmaking talent doesn't seem overly reasonable.

In the case of Crosby, who is also #1 on both of those lists for his era, "number of 2nd assists" should get placed below a number of factors in comparison to Ovechkin, if at all.

1. Offensive versatility
2. Quality of linemates
3. Deployment
4. Defensive responsibilies/performance
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast
I feel like you're jumping back and forth on samples a bit. My contention is simply that a player-season is a player-season, whether it happened in 1924-25 or 2024-25. It seems like I'm promoting single season comparisons, but that's mainly because I'm trying to show that patterns in scoring show up again and again. The considerable differences in point totals and PPGs is mainly due to an increasing number of games played and the seasonal scoring levels. When you acknowledge that league average scoring of 210 in a 70 game season is the same scoring level at 246 in an 82 game season, any point total differences are completely down to the 12 extra games played (plus a good dose of randomness).

Like, look at the Bill Cook season of 29-30 - 29+30=59 points in 44 games, 21.3 G%, 43.4 P%. You have the whole offside rule change helping to double league scoring, they didn't even track even-strength and power play goals, and the Rangers ran 6 forwards and 4 defensemen. Seventy six years later, Vincent Lecavalier puts up 52+56=108 points in 82 games, 21.4 G%, 44.4 P%. It's the exact same season. In 24-25 scoring, Cook's year is 55+57=112, Lecavalier's year is 54+59=113, minor variations easily attributable to randomness. [In 29-30 scoring, Lecavalier's year rounds to 29+31=60, Cook's year rounds to 53+54=107 in 06-07 scoring.]

That's really all I'm doing when I convert seasons. I'm assuming that the Bill Cook that put up a 21.3 G% and 43.4 P% in 29-30 is talented enough to put up a 21.3 G% and 43.4 P% in 06-07, and vice versa for Lecavalier. Because scoring doesn't change, similar seasons from widely disparate eras in the NHL have the same underlying numbers.

I don't doubt the statistical sense you are making, I doubt the assumption needed in order to convert or adjust seasons.

That assumption is Hull performs the exact same in 24/25 (or 07/08) as he did in 65/66. We do not have a clue what variables come into play by playing that hypothetical game.

We do know he dominated his peers over an extended period of time that places him in the Top 3 as a goalscorer and Top 10ish in overall offensive value.

We can reasonably guess that he dominates in a similar fashion if he happened to start his career five or ten years later given his level of play against the competition he would face in his prime was already competed against in his career during his later twenties/early 30s.

We can then do the same exercise with Lafleur, Wayne, Mario etc...

Measuring dominance vs. peers (and applying appropriate context) is, IMO, the most reasonable way to compare players as there is not a hint of hypothetical guesswork.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hippasus
I just watched some playoff stats, Capitals even strength TOI, Ovi is currently sitting 8th among their forwards, right behind Tony Beauvillier and Nic Dowd, and barely edging out Brandon Duhaime (who's also taken over Ovi's role from the regular season as the club's primary ENG artist). So per ice time, essentially an even strength 3rd liner.

And then there's some people arguing he's not a designated (PP) sniper at this point in time?
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast
Btw, a designated sniper can have fairly significant value to a club's success, so I'm not trying to denigrate anyone here. Mikael Samuelsson was a pretty hot potato once in the playoffs alongside the Sedins (though probably not 8th forward in even strength ice time).
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast
The narrative around Ovechkin is that he started out like Bobby Hull and morphed into Brett Hull then has morphed into who? A rich man's late career Dave Andreychuk?

What are thoughts on his mid-prime transformation? His peak is generally considered '08 to '10 but he did start a significant drop in production after the 2010 Olympics.

He started out OK in 10/11 but after the Caps went on an 8 game losing streak Boudreau went defensive which put a leash on Ovechkin offensively. He went from 3rd in scoring to 10th in scoring after the change as the Caps went from #3 in GF and #10 GA to # 23 in GF and #2 in GA. He fell even farther in 11/12 and got off to slow start in 12/13.

From 07/08 to February 2010, he was dominating in goalscoring at a GOAT level and the clear points/PPG leader (1.45 to 1.32 for Crosby and 1.30 for Malkin). From post Olympics in 2010 to early 2013, he was 9th in goals and 13th in points. He returned to form in the 2013 season but not to his peak level. He won the Rocket in 13/14 but was notably terrible defensively.

IMO, he was an effective all around player in the 14/15 season and in the 2018 playoffs to the extent he wasn't an obvious liability which, as captain, can be argued was a factor in the Caps Cup win.

His dip in 10/11 and 11/12 are somewhat of an afterthought now but it was an unusual drop right in the middle of his prime. How much of that can be attributed to Boudreau's defensive system? We saw a similar outcome with Crosby in 14/15 and 15/16; the introduction of a defensive system that seemingly puts a leash on elite offensive talent.
 
The narrative around Ovechkin is that he started out like Bobby Hull and morphed into Brett Hull then has morphed into who? A rich man's late career Dave Andreychuk?

What are thoughts on his mid-prime transformation? His peak is generally considered '08 to '10 but he did start a significant drop in production after the 2010 Olympics.

He started out OK in 10/11 but after the Caps went on an 8 game losing streak Boudreau went defensive which put a leash on Ovechkin offensively. He went from 3rd in scoring to 10th in scoring after the change as the Caps went from #3 in GF and #10 GA to # 23 in GF and #2 in GA. He fell even farther in 11/12 and got off to slow start in 12/13.

From 07/08 to February 2010, he was dominating in goalscoring at a GOAT level and the clear points/PPG leader (1.45 to 1.32 for Crosby and 1.30 for Malkin). From post Olympics in 2010 to early 2013, he was 9th in goals and 13th in points. He returned to form in the 2013 season but not to his peak level. He won the Rocket in 13/14 but was notably terrible defensively.

IMO, he was an effective all around player in the 14/15 season and in the 2018 playoffs to the extent he wasn't an obvious liability which, as captain, can be argued was a factor in the Caps Cup win.

His dip in 10/11 and 11/12 are somewhat of an afterthought now but it was an unusual drop right in the middle of his prime. How much of that can be attributed to Boudreau's defensive system? We saw a similar outcome with Crosby in 14/15 and 15/16; the introduction of a defensive system that seemingly puts a leash on elite offensive talent.
Apparantly on TSN Boudreau said that Ovechkin made a stick deal in the summer of 2010 and the sticks kept breaking so he was afraid that when he shot the puck the stick would break and it would create a 2-0 for the other team. That year his shooting percentage went down cuz he wouldn't shoot the puck from his office so his goal production dropped off that season... that stick shook up his confidence in those years plus the caps played under a defensive system in that weird era that killed Semin and Green's careers...
 
I feel like you're jumping back and forth on samples a bit. My contention is simply that a player-season is a player-season, whether it happened in 1924-25 or 2024-25. It seems like I'm promoting single season comparisons, but that's mainly because I'm trying to show that patterns in scoring show up again and again. The considerable differences in point totals and PPGs is mainly due to an increasing number of games played and the seasonal scoring levels. When you acknowledge that league average scoring of 210 in a 70 game season is the same scoring level at 246 in an 82 game season, any point total differences are completely down to the 12 extra games played (plus a good dose of randomness).

Like, look at the Bill Cook season of 29-30 - 29+30=59 points in 44 games, 21.3 G%, 43.4 P%. You have the whole offside rule change helping to double league scoring, they didn't even track even-strength and power play goals, and the Rangers ran 6 forwards and 4 defensemen. Seventy six years later, Vincent Lecavalier puts up 52+56=108 points in 82 games, 21.4 G%, 44.4 P%. It's the exact same season. In 24-25 scoring, Cook's year is 55+57=112, Lecavalier's year is 54+59=113, minor variations easily attributable to randomness. [In 29-30 scoring, Lecavalier's year rounds to 29+31=60, Cook's year rounds to 53+54=107 in 06-07 scoring.]

That's really all I'm doing when I convert seasons. I'm assuming that the Bill Cook that put up a 21.3 G% and 43.4 P% in 29-30 is talented enough to put up a 21.3 G% and 43.4 P% in 06-07, and vice versa for Lecavalier. Because scoring doesn't change, similar seasons from widely disparate eras in the NHL have the same underlying numbers.


I think it depends on what you mean by volatility. Does volatility go up in a 24 game or 44 game season? On one hand, smaller sample sizes are subject to more random variation. On the other hand, it is really hard to develop a substantial gap in that few games. Also, because you're not rolling 4 lines and 3 defensive pairs in 1920, and the same players are on ice for 50 minutes of the game, there's no other players to have that randomness occur to, so the same players were getting points no matter what.

Another way to measure volatility is the gap between VsX and Average VsX for a season, and whether it is above or below (or equal). If that number is above 1, that means VsX was set too low for the scoring level, if it is below 1, that means VsX was set too high for the scoring level, and I considered 1.00/1.01/0.99 as correct for the scoring level.

In the first 25 years of the NHL, it was above 1 22 times, and below 1 3 times. VsX was correct twice, within 5% 7 times, within 10% 13 times, within 20% 18 times, and was above 20% the other 7 seasons, peaking at 29% off in 40-41, where VsX was set at 44, but should have been 56.55 (league average was 129 in a 48 game season - compare that to 12-13 where league average was 127 in a 48 game season, and VsX was 57 - should have been 55.67).

The second 25 years of the NHL covers the O6 era prior to expansion from 42-43 to 66-67. The only time it was below 1 was the artificially set season of 43-44, and it was only within 5% twice. It was within 10% 11 times, 20% 15 times, and actually above 30% 3 times - 46-47 VsX of 63, should've been 83.29, 48-49 VsX 54, should've been 71.45, 66-67 VsX 70, should've been 91.61.

The next section is the 12 years post-expansion prior to the WHA merger. It was 9-3 in favor of being higher than 1. Also, VsX was correct twice, within 5% 3 times total, within 10% 8 times, and never above 20%, though it did peak at that in 73-74 (VsX set at 91, should've been 109.15).

Beyond that, you have the 25 years between the WHA merger and the 04-05 lockout. It was all the way down to 14-11 in terms of being above or below 1, though you had 1 season at 1.01, 2 at 1.00 and 3 at 0.99, so it is more like 11-8-6. Along with those 6 correct seasons, you had 15 total years within 5%, and 22 years within 10%, with the outliers being 83-84 at 14% (VsX of 121, should've been 138.52), 86-87 at 19% (VsX of 108, should've been 128.88), and 98-99 at 12% (VsX of 107, should've been 94.68).

Finally, you have the 20 years post-lockout. We've had 8 years above 1, and 12 below, though we have 3 exact years, 1 at 1.00 and 2 at 0.99, so 7-10-3 as a final tally. To go with those exact years, we have 8 total within 5%, and 19 of the 20 within 10%, with the peak year being 11% in 14-15 (VsX of 86, should've been 95.56).

The entire premise behind Average VsX is that the 05-06 through 18-19 seasons is a representative sample of scoring talent. I've toyed with adding more seasons, but I'm afraid it would be a bunch of work for less accuracy.

I don't know if that was a great exploration of volatility, but it was an explanation. Basically, I'd agree with you that volatility has decreased with time, but that the limited rosters and fewer games played mitigated it to an extent in the earliest years of the NHL. The O6 era lost the limited rosters and added more games, plus you had the disruption of WW2. The expansion era generated volatility from the gap between the haves and have-nots, and the lack of parity. The results after the WHA merger show that 20 teams and 80 games pretty much mitigates volatility, and 30 teams even more so.
Being perspicuous with one's method is good. I don't mean that as an affront. Are you suggesting the early days of the NHL weren't volatile?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Ad

Ad